can somebody explain okcupid to me

[buzzard]

When the statistics are against you, there's always becoming an outlier.

[Elphenor]

it just reads as sour grapes honestly

kill this thread with fire though

[Elphenor]

I posted my pic on a Discord server and this girl was like wait are you in San Antonio?

"Uh I might be"

"Omg I just saw you!"

post punk is a small world, and 60-40 women (80% of this server is women honestly)

[teh b0lly!!1]

it's almost as if we were living a real life episode of "Stranger Things".

[Elphenor]

living makes me sick

so sick I wish I'd die

[FoolofaTook]

[Disco King]

Originally Posted by pavementtune

I was registered on such a platform for a few months over a decade ago, so my experience with online dating is mostly second-hand from what people who do use it tell me about it.

What I found off-putting was that I had no way of knowing if someone is just there to find an easy hookup and doesn't care much who it is, what person the other one is. And that's basically what I hear now as well. Sure, the women I talk to who do use it have no shortage on matches. But most of them aren't actually registered to find a quick fuck with someone they have no further or deeper interest in.
99% of the guys I ended up chatting with were extremely fast in wanting to go on a date, like they had just swiped and figured "fuckable, sure, let's go". The one guy I talked to for weeks beyond a surface level I actually did agree to meet. And haha, that joke was on me, too.
I showed up and immediately recognized him as an assistant professor at college I had only nodded to in passing (back then you could have pictures on your profile that did not show your face if you didn't want to.) Naturally, in the weeks of online conversations, he kept that little detail to himself.

As easy as getting matches is, I wonder where in these studies is the very justified fear for women that a date with someone you do not know at all goes south fast.

Yeah, it is true that women have justifiable fears about meeting creeps and abusers on online dating. It's also true that men tend to be more interested in casual sex than women are, who tend to be more interested in long-term relationships (which can be explained by the different reproductive strategies predicted by parental-investment theory).

Some recent theories have argued that male anti-social behaviours, particularly the "Dark Triad" of Machiavellianism, narcissism, and psychopathy, are minority reproductive strategies that favour short-term mating over long-term mating. The theory is that, though women prefer long-term mating because evolutionarily, it is a better guarantee of male parental investment in offspring (creating a better chance of the offspring surviving and reproducing itself), women may make a tradeoff between that parental investment and good genes. Men who display "Dark Triad" traits tend to be found more attractive than men who don't by women, and this attraction doesn't seem to be mediated by Big Five personality traits that Dark Triad men will happen to have (Carter et al. 2013), nor does it seem to be mediated by facial morphology, as Dark Triad traits actually tend to be correlated with facial structures that women find less attractive (Lyons et al. 2014). We don't know for sure why these traits seem to make men more attractive, but studies have shown that even women who have had experience with "Dark Triad" men, and therefore should be aware that they lack qualities suitable for a long-term, dependable, supportive, investing partner, are more attracted to them and prefer them even for marriage (Haslam & Montrose 2015). As stated in Lyons et al. (2014), "Dark Triad traits (especially psychopathy) are associated with sadistic sexual offenses and even sexual homicide." But despite all this, the research shows that anti-social men, who are responsible for a very disproportionate amount of violent crimes and violence against women, seem to be more sexually successful and have more sexual partners (Yao et al. 2014; Moffitt 2002). In one longitudinal study that followed males who displayed persistent anti-social behaviours from childhood, males who offended temporarily as teenagers, and males who tended not to offend, the persistent childhood offenders represented 10% of the sample, but represented 62% of convictions for violence against women, but also had most of the sexual partners (Moffitt 2002).

One experiment found that, though both men and women state preferences for partners that are "responsive to their needs," only men responded with more attraction to women who demonstrated responsivivity, while women didn't. Rather, masculine traits were a better correlate of women's attraction to a man. An experiment by Gibson and Gore (2015) also found that men who were unattractive were seen less favourably by women when they broke social norms than attractive men are.

Considering this, I don't think that all the trends in female selectivity shown in the other studies can be explained by women trying to avoid dangerous men, or that the reason men are less successful in dating or in dating apps is because of fears that they may be dangerous (or else we'd have to reason that poorer men, less attractive men, short men, and racialized minorities are more likely to be dangerous). The choices at play seem to be distinct from concerns over that, and in many cases, it's the dangerous, abusive men who are actually doing better with women.

None of this excuses gendered violence, male entitlement, abuse of women, etc. Obviously, nobody deserves abuse. It's just that liklihood of abusing doesn't seem to be the explanatory factor for why some males much less female interest. And it doesn't also seem to be that women are avoiding the men uninterested in committment.

Citations:

Carter, Campbell, and Muncer. "The Dark Triad Personality: Attractiveness to Women." Personality and Individual Differences 56.1 (2014): 57-61. Web.

Gibson, Jeremy, and L. Gore. "You’re OK Until You Misbehave: How Norm Violations Magnify the Attractiveness Devil Effect." Gender Issues 32.4 (2015): 266-78. Web.

Haslam, and Montrose. "Should Have Known Better: The Impact of Mating Experience and the Desire for Marriage upon Attraction to the Narcissistic Personality." Personality and Individual Differences 82.C (2015): 188-92. Web.

Lyons, Marcinkowska, Helle, and Mcgrath. "Mirror, Mirror, on the Wall, Who Is the Most Masculine of Them All? The Dark Triad, Masculinity, and Women’s Mate Choice." Personality and Individual Differences 74.C (2015): 153-58. Web.

Moffitt, Terrie E., Avshalom Caspi, Honalee Harrington, and Barry J. Milne. "Males on the Life-course-persistent and Adolescence-limited Antisocial Pathways: Follow-up at Age 26 Years." Development and Psychopathology 14.1 (2002): 179-207. Web.

Yao, Långström, Temrin, and Walum. "Criminal Offending as Part of an Alternative Reproductive Strategy: Investigating Evolutionary Hypotheses Using Swedish Total Population Data." Evolution and Human Behavior 35.6 (2014): 481-88. Web.

[FoolofaTook]

I love this dude.

[pavementtune]

so do I.

Disco King, what are you doing the next three weeks? I am too daft and too lazy to do this college thing properly, I figure I could ask you vague questions, and then you'll provide me with an explanation I can follow, citation, further links and such.

On second thought, could you maybe just do my exams for me? That would probably be faster for you and also the only guarantee that I'll pass.

Seriously, thanks for bothering with all this, I have never even heard about this Dark Triad, I am intrigued.

[Disco King]

Originally Posted by buzzard

When the statistics are against you, there's always becoming an outlier.

I wonder what I'd have to do in order to pull myself up by the bootstraps and become that outlier. Well, that Hitsch study I referenced has some ideas of what I'd need to do to "compete" with the more desirable men:

…an African-American man needs to earn $154,000 more than a white man. Hispanic men need an additional $77,000, and Asian men need an additional $247,000 in annual income.

Originally Posted by Elphenor

it just reads as sour grapes honestly

kill this thread with fire though

"Sour grapes" is when you pretend you didn't want the thing you can't have anyway.

I don't see how any of the studies are saying that. None of them are saying "relationships are lame, anyway." They aren't really offering any normative conclusions. They are just describing what the trends are.

[vixnix]

I wonder if females are attracted to Dark Triad males because of an instinctive understanding that resources are controlled by people with those traits, so for the father of her offspring to compete for those resources, he will need those traits also. If nice guys finish last, then from a demented evolutionary psychology perspective, maybe females instinctively feel that children of nice guys will eat last, be housed last, etc.

[vixnix]

Really interested info DK thank you

[pavementtune]

In one longitudinal study that followed males who displayed persistent anti-social behaviours from childhood, males who offended temporarily as teenagers, and males who tended not to offend, the persistent childhood offenders represented 10% of the sample, but represented 62% of convictions for violence against women, but also had most of the sexual partners (Moffitt 2002).

I can't wrap my head around this. In a nutshell, this is the "bad boys are sexy" thing, isn't it? While we do know better, especially after dating asshole number 1, 2, and 3, we somehow are still attracted to assholes?

[Disco King]

Originally Posted by pavementtune

so do I.

Disco King, what are you doing the next three weeks? I am too daft and too lazy to do this college thing properly, I figure I could ask you vague questions, and then you'll provide me with an explanation I can follow, citation, further links and such.

On second thought, could you maybe just do my exams for me? That would probably be faster for you and also the only guarantee that I'll pass.

Seriously, thanks for bothering with all this, I have never even heard about this Dark Triad, I am intrigued.

Still in school for the next few weeks, haha.

The funny thing is that I'm actually super behind on a paper I'm supposed to be working on. For whatever reason, I've been doing research for a forum post instead of research for my actual paper.

For whatever reason, when I'm ruminating about something, I lack the ability to just put it aside and focus on more pressing matters, like nearing due dates. I feel like I can't shift my attention away from a certain issue that's salient in my mind until I solve it. So, my issues in this realm have actually been interfering with my academic life.

As for the "Dark Triad" stuff, IIRC, one of the papers Reprise was working on had to do with similar stuff about psychopathy as a reproductive strategy, right? She probably knows a lot more about this stuff than I do.

[buzzard]

Originally Posted by Disco King

I wonder what I'd have to do in order to pull myself up by the bootstraps and become that outlier. Well, that Hitsch study I referenced has some ideas of what I'd need to do to "compete" with the more desirable men

Where does it suggest spending your leisure time putting together college grade essays about how stacked against you the odds appear to be?

[Disco King]

Originally Posted by buzzard

Where does it suggest spending your leisure time putting together college grade essays about how stacked against you the odds appear to be?

https://i.imgur.com/SO8VK6U.jpg

[pavementtune]

Originally Posted by vixnix

I wonder if females are attracted to Dark Triad males because of an instinctive understanding that resources are controlled by people with those traits, so for the father of her offspring to compete for those resources, he will need those traits also. If nice guys finish last, then from a demented evolutionary psychology perspective, maybe females instinctively feel that children of nice guys will eat last, be housed last, etc.

I wonder how early on we start with this crap, because one of my first crushes was age 6, not any of the nice, fun kids I played with, no, the one asshole who never talked to me and eventually punched me instead.

[FoolofaTook]

It all goes back to the Garden of Eden, where Eve fell for the serpent (Satan).

[vixnix]

I think six year olds are pretty aware of social hierarchy, even if they don’t know the purpose it serves. My childhood crushes were on boys who were horrible to me, too. But they also happened to be popular and sporty. I think I probably liked them because of their status in the playground social hierarchy more than anything else, looking back.

It’s quite hard to admit that to myself. I was taller than most of the boys at my school and mixed race, so I had a very low place in the hierarchy...the crush might have just been an expression of my desire to gain higher social status. Girls with high social status at my school were small, fair skinned, blonde, blue-eyed, and had a quiet nature.

Not sure if you were crushing on that kind of horrible boy or the kind who was being raised by an alcoholic aunt and started smoking at 10 years old, because he was “exotic”...I had family members in that situation so it wasn’t exotic or enticing to me, just upsetting.

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by Disco King

Yeah, it is true that women have justifiable fears about meeting creeps and abusers on online dating. It's also true that men tend to be more interested in casual sex than women are, who tend to be more interested in long-term relationships (which can be explained by the different reproductive strategies predicted by parental-investment theory).

Some recent theories have argued that male anti-social behaviours, particularly the "Dark Triad" of Machiavellianism, narcissism, and psychopathy, are minority reproductive strategies that favour short-term mating over long-term mating. The theory is that, though women prefer long-term mating because evolutionarily, it is a better guarantee of male parental investment in offspring (creating a better chance of the offspring surviving and reproducing itself), women may make a tradeoff between that parental investment and good genes. Men who display "Dark Triad" traits tend to be found more attractive than men who don't by women, and this attraction doesn't seem to be mediated by Big Five personality traits that Dark Triad men will happen to have (Carter et al. 2013), nor does it seem to be mediated by facial morphology, as Dark Triad traits actually tend to be correlated with facial structures that women find less attractive (Lyons et al. 2014). We don't know for sure why these traits seem to make men more attractive, but studies have shown that even women who have had experience with "Dark Triad" men, and therefore should be aware that they lack qualities suitable for a long-term, dependable, supportive, investing partner, are more attracted to them and prefer them even for marriage (Haslam & Montrose 2015). As stated in Lyons et al. (2014), "Dark Triad traits (especially psychopathy) are associated with sadistic sexual offenses and even sexual homicide." But despite all this, the research shows that anti-social men, who are responsible for a very disproportionate amount of violent crimes and violence against women, seem to be more sexually successful and have more sexual partners (Yao et al. 2014; Moffitt 2002). In one longitudinal study that followed males who displayed persistent anti-social behaviours from childhood, males who offended temporarily as teenagers, and males who tended not to offend, the persistent childhood offenders represented 10% of the sample, but represented 62% of convictions for violence against women, but also had most of the sexual partners (Moffitt 2002).

One experiment found that, though both men and women state preferences for partners that are "responsive to their needs," only men responded with more attraction to women who demonstrated responsivivity, while women didn't. Rather, masculine traits were a better correlate of women's attraction to a man. An experiment by Gibson and Gore (2015) also found that men who were unattractive were seen less favourably by women when they broke social norms than attractive men are.

Considering this, I don't think that all the trends in female selectivity shown in the other studies can be explained by women trying to avoid dangerous men, or that the reason men are less successful in dating or in dating apps is because of fears that they may be dangerous (or else we'd have to reason that poorer men, less attractive men, short men, and racialized minorities are more likely to be dangerous). The choices at play seem to be distinct from concerns over that, and in many cases, it's the dangerous, abusive men who are actually doing better with women.

None of this excuses gendered violence, male entitlement, abuse of women, etc. Obviously, nobody deserves abuse. It's just that liklihood of abusing doesn't seem to be the explanatory factor for why some males much less female interest. And it doesn't also seem to be that women are avoiding the men uninterested in committment.

Citations:

Carter, Campbell, and Muncer. "The Dark Triad Personality: Attractiveness to Women." Personality and Individual Differences 56.1 (2014): 57-61. Web.

Gibson, Jeremy, and L. Gore. "You’re OK Until You Misbehave: How Norm Violations Magnify the Attractiveness Devil Effect." Gender Issues 32.4 (2015): 266-78. Web.

Haslam, and Montrose. "Should Have Known Better: The Impact of Mating Experience and the Desire for Marriage upon Attraction to the Narcissistic Personality." Personality and Individual Differences 82.C (2015): 188-92. Web.

Lyons, Marcinkowska, Helle, and Mcgrath. "Mirror, Mirror, on the Wall, Who Is the Most Masculine of Them All? The Dark Triad, Masculinity, and Women’s Mate Choice." Personality and Individual Differences 74.C (2015): 153-58. Web.

Moffitt, Terrie E., Avshalom Caspi, Honalee Harrington, and Barry J. Milne. "Males on the Life-course-persistent and Adolescence-limited Antisocial Pathways: Follow-up at Age 26 Years." Development and Psychopathology 14.1 (2002): 179-207. Web.

Yao, Långström, Temrin, and Walum. "Criminal Offending as Part of an Alternative Reproductive Strategy: Investigating Evolutionary Hypotheses Using Swedish Total Population Data." Evolution and Human Behavior 35.6 (2014): 481-88. Web.

I wrote a paper for evo psych called "Psychopathy as an Evolutionary Life History and Mating Strategy" all about this! It was my first real university paper (besides for like, english class). Here's a the intro.

Psychopathy is a syndrome that consists of a constellation of behavioral and interpersonal characteristics that are generally harmful to other people specifically, and society in general. Some of these traits can broadly be described as a lack of conscience or empathy for others, pathological lying, antisocial behavior, and egocentricity (Hare, 1993). Though psychopathy is not and has never been an official disorder in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) (Crego & Widiger, 2015), it is most similar to Antisocial Personality Disorder (ASPD) (American Psychiatric Association, 2013; Hare, 1993). A common measurement of psychopathy is the Psychopathy Checklist-Revised (PCL-R), which was created originally in 1980 by Dr. Robert Hare (as the PCL) and has been revised several times (Gunter, Vaughn, & Philibert, 2010; Hare, 1993). Dr. Hare was doing research on men he considered to be psychopathic – a term that has been used for centuries to describe highly antisocial individuals – and saw a need for a reliable diagnostic tool that didn’t rely purely on objective behaviors (Hare, 1993). According to Hare (1993), the DSM’s paradigm of what constitutes antisocial behavior misses the core pathology and dangerousness of the psychopath, who may or may not commit (or get caught committing) crimes and may or may not be consistently irresponsible, but who often causes a vast amount of misery to society either way.

Indeed, while the DSM’s ASPD criteria only examines specific observable criminal and antisocial behaviors such as impulsivity, consistent irresponsibility, reckless disregard for others, and repeatedly breaking the law, the PCL-R also examines problematic interpersonal characteristics such as shallow affect, lack of empathy or guilt, and superficial charm, in addition to an expanded list of behavioral features such as a pathological need for excitement and criminal versatility (APA, 2013; Hare, 1993). Thus, although most violent criminals meet the criteria for ASPD, most do not meet the criteria for psychopathy, and many people who have never been to prison also meet the diagnostic criteria of psychopathy (Hare, 1993). The rate of psychopathy in the general population is thought to be around 1% (Glenn, Kurzban, & Raine, 2011).

Psychopathic trait development has long been correlated to experiences of child abuse, abandonment, neglect, emotional deprivation, and/or unsecure attachment in childhood that alters brain activities and subsequent behaviors (e.g., Glenn et al.; 2011, Weiler, 1996). However, there are some psychopaths who appear to have had no severe environmental disturbances in their childhoods (Crawford & Salmon 2004; Hare, 1993; Weiler, 1996). This suggests that developmental disturbances are not causal, but often contribute to, the development of psychopathy. Accordingly, heritability of psychopathy is very likely high, and is at least as important as shared and non-shared environments in the manifestation of the condition (Gunter et al., 2010).

Though links to specific gene expressions have not been conclusively proven, there has been success in finding likely links to low activity in both Monoamine oxidase A (MAO-A) enzyme activity (moderated by the MAOA gene) and the serotonin transporter protein (5-HTT) encoded by the SLC6A4 gene (Gunter et al., 2010; Crawford & Salmon, 2004). There are also observed changes in the activity at various sites in the neocortex and limbic system, as well as changes in patterns of response of the automatic nervous system as measured using magnetic resonance imaging (MRI), positron emission tomography (PET) scans and other imaging protocols (Nickerson, 2014; Ellis & Bjorklund, 2012). However, individual neuropsychological differences are not prima facie diseases (Crawford & Salmon, 2004; Hare, 2016), and psychopaths - although they continuously cause problems in the lives of those they know - don’t appear to personally suffer from their own points of view (Crawford & Salmon, 2004; Glenn et al., 2011; Hare, 1993).

Because of this interaction between genes and environment and the lack of personal distress from the condition, psychopathy appears to be a predictable, epigenetically mediated (Glenn et al., 2011; Gunter et al., 2010), evolutionary adaptive reaction to a prolonged, abnormally dangerous childhood environment (excluding for those who may be “born” psychopaths) in those who have certain genetic predispositions to antisocial behaviors (e.g., Gunter et al., 2010). As an evolutionary coping mechanism, psychopathy permits an alternate life history and mating strategy when the usual one is not possible because of a lack of normal development due to inadequate parental care, individual genetic differences, or both (Glenn et al., 2011). Theoretically, this lack of a basic emotional connection to a caregiver early in life is what allows for all of the later predatory, manipulative, and egocentric behaviors we associate with psychopathy (Murphy & Stich, 2000). That is, while psychopaths cause a disproportionate amount of misery for the rest of society (in the form of exploitative behavior and non-care for their offspring), they do so at an advantage to their own reproductive success (Ellis & Bjorklund, 2012). What may seem destructive to us, then, may be enormously beneficial to the psychopath from an evolutionary point of view.

Despite some limitations in research (described below), there are certain theories – such as evolutionary mismatch theory and life history theory - that make a strong case that psychopathy is an evolutionary adaptation, instead of or along with being a psychological disorder (Ellis & Bjorklund, 2012).

and le citations:

American Psychiatric Association. (2013). Diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders (5th ed.) Print, 645-684.
Arrigo, B. A. (2014). Encyclopedia of Criminal Justice Ethics. Print, 700-701.
Brumbach, B. H., Figueredo, A. J., & Ellis, B. J. (2009). Effects of Harsh and Unpredictable Environments in Adolescence on Development of Life History Strategies: A Longitudinal Test of an Evolutionary Model. Human Nature, 20(1), 25-51.
Buss, D. M. (2005). The Handbook of Evolutionary Psychology. Print, 68-91.
Buss, D. M. (2014). Evolutionary Psychology: The New Science of the Mind, Fifth Edition. Print.
Crawford, C., & Salmon, C. (2004). Evolutionary psychology, public policy, and personal decisions. Print, 293-339.
Crego, C. and Widiger, T. A. (2015). Psychopathy and the DSM. Journal of Personality, 83, 665–677.
Ellis, B. J., & Bjorklund, D. F. (2012). Beyond Mental Health: An Evolutionary Analysis of Development Under Risky and Supportive Environmental Conditions: An Introduction to the Special Section. Developmental Psychology, 48(3), 591-597.
Glenn, A.L., Kurzban, R., & Raine, A. (2011). Evolutionary Theory and Psychopathy. Aggression and Violent Behavior, 16, 371-380.
Gunter, T.D., Vaughn, M.G., & Philibert, R.A. (2010). Behavioral Genetics in Antisocial Spectrum Disorders and Psychopathy: A Review of the Recent Literature. Behavioral Sciences and the Law, 28, 148-173.
Hagen, E.H. (1999). The Functions of Postpartum Depression. Evolution and Human Behavior, 20, 325-359.
Hare, R. D. (1993). Without Conscience: The Disturbing World of the Psychopaths Among Us. Print.
Hare, R. D. (2016). Psychopathy, the PCL-R, and Criminal Justice: Some New Findings and Current Issues. Canadian Psychology, 57(1), 21-34.
Murphy, D., & Stich, S. (2000). Darwin in the Madhouse: Evolutionary Psychology and the Classification of Mental Disorders. In Peter Carruthers & A. Chamberlain (eds.), Evolution and the Human Mind. 62-92.
Nickerson, S.D. (2014). Brain Abnormalities in Psychopaths: A ****-Analysis. North
American Journal of Psychology, 16.1, 63.
Serbin, L. A., Cooperman, J. M., Peters, P. L., Lehoux, P. M., Stack, D. M., & Schwartzman, A. E. (1998). Intergenerational Transfer of Psychosocial Risk in Women With Childhood Histories of Aggression, Withdrawal, or Aggression and Withdrawal. Developmental Psychology, 34(6), 1246-62.
Stouthamer-Loeber, M., & Wei, E. H. (1998). The Precursors of Young Fatherhood and Its Effect on Delinquency of Teenage Males. Journal of Adolescent Health, 22(1), 56-65.
Varga, S. (2015). Identifications, Volitions and the Case of Successful Psychopaths.
Dialectica, 69, 87-106.
Vars, F. E. (2011). Rethinking the Indefinite Detention of Sex Offenders. Connecticut Law Review, 44(1), 161-195.
Weiler, B. L., & Widom, C. S. (1996). Psychopathy and Violent Behaviour in Abused and
Neglected Young Adults. Criminal Behaviour and Mental Health, 6, 253-271.

[Disco King]

That's a really interesting intro.

[reprise85]

thanks. it was a really cool paper to write

[Disco King]

I wonder if this partially explains why a lot of infamous antisocial men, such as serial killers and abusers, end up amassing "fan clubs." Many serial killers wind up getting love letters from women while in prison, and there's even been studies that show that many institutionalized antisocial males end up sleeping with female staff. Even when a man is outed as an abuser, a certain segment of society will respond to their behaviour like this.

Of course, I think it's only a particular kind of troubled person who would end up romanticizing people like Chris Brown and Ted Bundy. Maybe people who had insecure upbringings themselves? Maybe they feel like the antisocial man is "misunderstood" and their love can change them into a law-abiding citizen? I'll call it "Harley Quinn syndrome" and publish that theory in the Journal of Shorter Typological Studies. I can't remember for sure, but I think I did read something about borderline women specifically being more likely to be attracted to narcissistic men.

[yo soy el mejor]

https://media2.giphy.com/media/xUOxf...MS76/giphy.gif