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Old 04-26-2009, 11:11 PM   #91
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first off, the OP was great - not perfect but damn well done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Everlasting Radio View Post
I'm not sure you were around in 2001/2002, but I think if you were there, at one of those early shows especially, you would not even think about calling Zwan 'fake'. Billy was all in at this point, and, in my opinion, was presenting some of the best songs he's written this decade. Those live shows were amazing, the intensity and level of commitment I believe was commendable. At that point, I was very glad Billy had left the Pumpkins, because it put him in a situation where he could re-energize and recommit. Zwan was a necessary step.

Too many people think only 'Mary Star of the Sea' when they think Zwan, neglecting the real worth of the band.

Just sayin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rairun View Post
I never saw Zwan live, but that band means as much as SP1 to me. I still remember downloading the first show (a few songs the night of the show, and the rest the day after). It was great.
couldn't agree more. 4 piece zwan was as good as SP at their peak.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mellon_c0llie View Post
That's because it's the only thing released by zwan. I can't hold on to the memories of a show that I never attended or the bootlegged recording. Those fleeting moments are not greatness.
yes they are 'greatness'.

how is a live bootleg (potentially) any less great than a studio album? i would argue the opposite, that more often than not bootlegs have more potential for greatness and lasting meaning than a studio album, even if you never saw the band live.

i never saw zwan or sp1 live - and many bootlegs (2001.11.16, 1997 vancouver, earphoria, etc.) are right up there overpassing lots of the albums for me.

 
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Old 04-26-2009, 11:56 PM   #92
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Reyangel is too much of a coward to post in the open letters forums on the oboard, so he posts it here where he knows Billy nor Pumpkins fans will ever read it.

Everyone says "Oh my god, Billy like needs to read this." As if Reyangel is the voice of God. This just 1 out of a million bitter and insignificant opinions from an old fan. I highly doubt The Smashing Pumpkins need to be lectured by one bitter, pimply face guy wearing a World of Warcraft t-shirt and living in his parents basement.

Last edited by Springbridge : 04-27-2009 at 02:21 AM.

 
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Old 04-26-2009, 11:58 PM   #93
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iz it rong 2 say therez gawd &then there faithe?

 
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Old 04-27-2009, 11:14 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Springbridge View Post
I highly doubt The Smashing Pumpkins need to be lectured by one bitter, pimply face guy wearing a World of Warcraft t-shirt and living in his parents basement.
Off-topic: What do you guys figure the life expectancy of this particular cliché is, keeping in mind that these days, everyone from your dog to your great-grandfather likely has a Facebook page and leaves bafflingly illiterate comments on Youtube videos

Like in forty years when every baby born, everywhere, is immediately implanted with a nexternet brain-chip and we're all in vats of jelly hypertwittering to each other, are we still going to be accusing each other of living in the offending party's parents' overflow jelly shunts or something

 
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Old 04-27-2009, 11:30 AM   #95
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the tone of the original post is infuriating

 
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Old 04-27-2009, 03:43 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by topleybird View Post
Like in forty years when every baby born, everywhere, is immediately implanted with a nexternet brain-chip and we're all in vats of jelly hypertwittering to each other, are we still going to be accusing each other of living in the offending party's parents' overflow jelly shunts or something
fuck, i can't wait for this.

 
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Old 04-27-2009, 04:10 PM   #97
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I've been a message board member for a couple years now, I've hardly made any posts, but read the message board almost daily. However I had to take a moment out and say that, for the most part, I agree with you. Good post.

 
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Old 04-27-2009, 05:43 PM   #98
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I HOPE THE NEW RECORD IS KICK ASS

 
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Old 04-27-2009, 07:49 PM   #99
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Good post. A little late though. I started realizing alot of that stuff about 10 years ago. I'm sure I haven't posted here in years, but catching up on what's happened the last year and reading your post has got me wanting to give my own thoughts...

As far as the so called "SP2". One listen to Zeitgeist was enough to confirm the thought (if not obvious inevitability) that "reuniting" the Pumpkins was a terrible mistake. It could have been a nice sentimental trip, but unsurprisingly and par for the course Billy completely ruined any chance of that. Now it's apparently just going to be a joke that will undoubtedly further tarnish whatever legacy the "Pumpkins brand" may have had. Ok, so the album is horrible. I can forgive another bad album. But the fact is the man completely lost it way back in the mid to late 1990's. How long can it go before he realizes it himself and either quits, or at least takes a look in the mirror before recording another album? Is it not insane to keep failing, yet do the same thing over and over leading to more failure? Face it; whether it's Machina, Zwan, Solo Album, or Zeitgest it's the same ole shit. It's all Billy. Since the time Adore was recorded there has been very little redeeming value to anything he has made commercially available. I will admit I did pretty well enjoy the one Zwan show we went to. But the recorded work was terrible. Everything since Zwan both live and recorded has been beyond terrible. Even the damn album covers are terrible (solo album comes to mind, anyone actually buy or even listen to that after getting a glimpse of the cover?). Thankfully I had no interest and didn't waste anything on the supposed "20th anniversary tour". Mostly because I don't have time, but I certainly wasn't going to travel or take days off for something with the sneaking suspicion that it would live up to even medium expectations of just following through.

The most laughable thing of all about Corgan's current "idea" is his thinking that quantity somehow equals value. At one point maybe it did. I used to know and love just about every song that the Pumpkins put out officially or unofficially (Mashed Potatoes, etc). Now he is apparently just as prolific as ever, but just about every song is terrible. When the quality of songwriting and music deteriorates so significantly yet you ramp up the quantity of songs most sane people will simply not bother to pay attention to every little thing you put out any more. If Billy just STOPPED, disappeared for awhile, perhaps there would be some pent up demand if he actually hit a creative streak and put out a good album of 10 songs. Instead he continues to force out crap song after crap song like he's working on an assembly line. To counteract that he desperately tries to grab what little limelight he still can through these asinine marketing gimmicks. By his post it is obvious in his mind he thinks $300 for 200 song is a good value. The thought never occurs to him that his assembly line process of writing songs results in 95% complete and utter garbage that nobody wants to hear FOR ANY PRICE. Even if it were free who but the criminally insane would want to sit there for hours and listen??? Based on recent history, out of 200 songs, in reality he would probably not even be able to provide one album's worth of listenable material, worth perhaps $15?

The bottom line is this. All the talk back in the day about Billy's huge ego and personality issues have shown to be absolutely true over the years. Perhaps that's what made the Pumpkins great back in their heyday. But in the end it's what destroyed them and alienated even their most devoted fans (and apparantly now even Jimmy!?). Maybe in his mind he still thinks he can recapture 1997. The reality is the guy is 40+ years old, the Pumpkins have been dead for nearly a decade despite whatever brand he tries to stamp on any new music going forward. Despite age, his ramblings are indistinguishable from a 14 year old girl. So on top of his albums being bad, HE is personally embarrassing. I'm obviously no celebrity nor am I rich, but I wouldn't want to be seen with the guy regardless if he is wealthy or headed the band I grew up loving most through middle/high school.

One counterpoint against Billy bashing. I could care less about "selling out" with the Visa commercial. Maybe as a 14 year old kid that's a novel idea. But as an adult I could care less. He wrote Today 15+ years ago. If anything he should be honored that his song had the staying power, recognition, and that a major company would want to use it in a nationally televised commercials. On the other hand the new songs are all terrible, whether they were on Guitar Hero, in Hyundai commercials, or whatever is completely irrelevant. Any critical and unbiased person would sit there and say "this just isn't good". If they were actually good songs then who cares the medium by which they are originally released nowadays? The album format is all but dead anyway.

 
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Old 04-27-2009, 11:19 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by headofpumkin View Post
I HOPE THE NEW RECORD IS KICK ASS
Me too.

It will rock, don't worry Billy won't disappoint.

 
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Old 04-27-2009, 11:30 PM   #101
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springbridge, i thought you were cool.

 
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Old 04-27-2009, 11:44 PM   #102
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if the new album is just a 45 minute long version of girl with the cruel face solo on piano in one take, i couldbe down with that.

 
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Old 04-28-2009, 01:55 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Springbridge View Post

It will rock, don't worry Billy won't disappoint.
hahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahah

ahahahhahaha
hahahaha


hahahahahahahahahahahaha


 
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Old 04-28-2009, 01:55 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topleybird View Post
Off-topic: What do you guys figure the life expectancy of this particular cliché is, keeping in mind that these days, everyone from your dog to your great-grandfather likely has a Facebook page and leaves bafflingly illiterate comments on Youtube videos

Like in forty years when every baby born, everywhere, is immediately implanted with a nexternet brain-chip and we're all in vats of jelly hypertwittering to each other, are we still going to be accusing each other of living in the offending party's parents' overflow jelly shunts or something
in a word: yes.

 
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Old 05-01-2009, 03:55 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rairun View Post
Also, I don't think the original post was that good. I disagree with a lot of his points.

Zwan were great, and it was understandable that he put his back catalogue aside at the time. The other members were actually part of the band, not hired guns. They wanted to play songs they worked on together.

I don't care about the visa commercial. Sure, Billy sounds like a hypocrite, but I don't believe in selling-out that way.

I don't care about all the Zeitgest versions because I didn't pay for it.

Basically, I think the OP focused too much on the wrong side of Billy's stupidity. I was first disappointed with him when Mary Star of the Sea came out, but I didn't pay it any mind because I thought there were great things to come. The Zwan break-up was disappointing, but it would have also been okay, if only he kept his trap shut and refrained from calling everyone else immoral. The blue blog was just a disgrace: dissing James and D'arcy, and spreading Sonia Choquette's words of light. That was when I stopped respecting him.

Releasing a horrible poetry book didn't help either. The Chicago Songs had better writing than any of those poems, but he chose to release TheFutureEmbrace instead. It wasn't a bad album, but I still hoped he could do much better. Then he announced the SP reunion. I was already extremely skeptical at that point, but once the Zeitgeist pictures were leaked, I knew it was a terrible idea. It was such a terrible concept. One of the reasons why I didn't buy Zeitgeist was that I'd be embarrassed to have the artwork in my house. Oh, and it didn't help that Billy wanted those kids arrested because of the pictures. What an asshole.

It turned out that Zeitgeist was worse than I imagined possible. Superchrist was mediocre, and GLOW and FOL were terrible. Also, at my very first A show, Billy walked off and left half of the setlist unplayed.

Anyway, I do love Stellar and some of the residency songs (some of which aren't on IAGW). I just think he should never have revived the Pumpkins. It would be good if he made music as a solo artist and played whatever songs he felt like playing. Only new ones, only old ones, whatever. If people--including me--didn't like the music, that would be okay. He should just quit whining about it.

This list is by no means comprehensive. He has done many more terrible things. I just think the OP didn't focus on the worst ones.

i love you

...

i can't be bothered to feel offended by bc anymore. the thought of it is ridiculous. our realities are so vastly different. we're all grown up now [well sometimes]. best to let bc do whatever he wants, cause he always will anyway.

 
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Old 05-01-2009, 03:59 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pale_princess View Post
if the new album is just a 45 minute long version of A with the cruel face solo on piano in one take, i couldbe down with that.
that is the best song he's done since who knows when

i think i post sth about that song every time i come to this site

 
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Old 05-02-2009, 06:19 AM   #107
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too lazy, didn't read.

 
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Old 05-03-2009, 05:11 PM   #108
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if the Sp2 shows were all on the calibre of 6/27/07, things would've been great.....but they weren't.

and if he hadn't done night 1 of 20th anniversary tour as a rehash of the last tour, it'd have been great. static setlists SUCK

 
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Old 05-03-2009, 05:42 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Springbridge View Post
Reyangel is too much of a coward to post in the open letters forums on the oboard, so he posts it here where he knows Billy nor Pumpkins fans will ever read it.
I know macho bill has been involved with wrestling, but really, there's nothing to be afraid of to warrant "coward" being used here.

 
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Old 05-03-2009, 06:03 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Springbridge View Post
Reyangel is too much of a coward to post in the open letters forums on the oboard, so he posts it here where he knows Billy nor Pumpkins fans will ever read it.

Everyone says "Oh my god, Billy like needs to read this." As if Reyangel is the voice of God. This just 1 out of a million bitter and insignificant opinions from an old fan. I highly doubt The Smashing Pumpkins need to be lectured by one bitter, pimply face guy wearing a World of Warcraft t-shirt and living in his parents basement.





1. I don't even go to the O-Board. I'm not active there, I don't care about it, I don't know what goes on there and I couldn't care less about it. My previous experiences on the past O-Boards for the Pumpkins has been biased censoring of points of view. It's pathetic. Even if I were to post it there, would it even stay up for much longer than an hour? Clearly you're involved there, though. If you care so much, you post it. And you must care. A lot. Otherwise you wouldn't consider someone who posts here rather than there a "coward."

2. Why exactly are you so bothered by what I wrote? Is it because there are a lot of people who agree with it? Why does that offend you so much?

3. I know you've never met me, but others here have, and trust me man, I'm the farthest thing from World of Warcraft, pimples and my parent's basement. Not that that even matters. But really? You need to chill.

4. You seem to have missed the point. I didn't actually write it to Billy Corgan. It was more or less a structural way to write a long post about what was bothering me lately about him, the band, etc. If he ends up reading it somehow, fine. I do think he needs to know most of what I wrote. If he doesn't, that's also fine. The point was to generate discussion.

 
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Old 05-03-2009, 06:22 PM   #111
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There's a worthy point or two in Reyngel's rambling wall of text, but there's also a lot of things that are way off base.

- For one thing, Zwan was great (at least for a time). You can bitch all you want about how you wanted them to play SP songs and they didn't, but that doesn't make the band fake or insincere or artificial. They put together a ton of great material in a pretty short amount of time. Sure, it led to a disappointing album and a sour breakup eventually, but that's not grounds for any fan to say they knew it was disaster all along. It's just not true.

- Ther poetry book. Yes, nobody bought that because Billy is a great poet. But that doesn't mean that anyone was entitled to anything other than a discussion of the poetry when they attended the events surrounding the book's release. Billy was under no obligation to answer Smashing Pumpkins questions, and had every right to get annoyed when he got them. And it's especially stupid to get all bitchy about those poetry readings considering the fact that Billy did actually play some unique stuff like some of the Chicago songs there from time to time. He didn't have to do even that much.

- The Future Embrace. The album stands on it's own, no matter what happened to be in the newspaper the day it came out. And the tour should have been allowed to stand on its own too. That's why Billy put out the ad. To say "Hey, enjoy TFE for what it is right now. If you want Pumpkins, I'll give you that later." But no, even with the promises of the eventual return of SP material, you still had impatient assholes yelling for 1979 during every show of the TFE tour. It shouldn't be hard to see where Billy would get frustrated there.

- Multiple releases of Zeitgeist. The complaining about this has gotten ridiculous. There is no reason that anyone should have had to buy 7 or 8 copies of Zeitgeist to get all the songs. There is no reason anyone should have had to spend 100 bucks to get all the songs. I bought two copies of the album. The Target version w/ Zeitgeist (the song) and the Best Buy version with Death From Above, Ma Belle, and Stellar. I was out 20 bucks when all was said and done. That was significantly better than I do for most SP releases, where there are no bonus tracks on the album and I have to track down two or 3 imported singles at 10-15 bucks a pop to gather all the extra songs.

- The Visa commercial. I'm tired of seeing this myth that Today was some sacred thing that Billy should have never ever ever sold, and that Billy has soured it by somehow mentioning it in the same sentence as money. Come on. The man had seven figures in the bank for the song before he ever wrote a single note of it. The song was a cash cow the second it came into being. That doesn't detract from the emotion of it.

Everything else, yeah, I more or less agree with.

 
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Old 05-03-2009, 09:03 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew_Pakula View Post
Stop being a Billy apologist.
.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corganist View Post
- Ther poetry book. Yes, nobody bought that because Billy is a great poet.
you've been brown nosing corgan so long that you automatically pay him a compliment even when you're trying not to.

 
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Old 05-04-2009, 01:06 AM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaCentauri View Post
if the Sp2 shows were all on the calibre of 6/27/07, things would've been great.....but they weren't.

and if he hadn't done night 1 of 20th anniversary tour as a rehash of the last tour, it'd have been great. static setlists SUCK
agreed. of course 6/27 was the only 2007 show I saw... but the energy was great, the bollster was in a good mood, and the crowd seemed to really love and appreciate the great show they were seeing.

 
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Old 05-04-2009, 02:50 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Reyngel View Post
4. You seem to have missed the point. I didn't actually write it to Billy Corgan. ...
you got me confused there for a minute though.
ok, you posted this on netphoria, where you shouldn't expect billy to ever read it, but still.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reyngel View Post
Billy Corgan? I know you're reading. And you need to read this. Now.

Billy Corgan. Billy mother-fucking Corgan. Mr. Smashing Pumpkins.

Soak this in. Read every word.

If you're on your Blackberry right now, navigate elsewhere. Wait until you have a free moment. Wait until you're without distraction.

Because the following? The following is very important for you to know.

Ready?

Let's do this.

Billy, I'm not going to...

 
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Old 05-04-2009, 04:01 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Cool As Ice Cream View Post
you got me confused there for a minute though.
ok, you posted this on netphoria, where you shouldn't expect billy to ever read it, but still.


Yeah, I mean, it was more or less a sort Dear Abbey sort of way to say all that had been bothering me lately. I don't realisitcally expect it to get to him, but I thought I'd write it anyway just cause it was on my mind. I don't know. If it does get to him, all the better, because he certainly needs to hear it if he hasn't already, heh. If not, well, whatever.

 
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Old 05-04-2009, 05:32 AM   #116
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Pellteus: ur a stupid cunt for seeking a zwan song
xxxxxxxxx: I just wanted my friend to hear "Honestly". Why do you have Zwan if you don't like it?
Pellteus: cuz my girlfriend likes that shit and i hate that faggot
Pellteus: dont dl from me cause u like that faggot music
xxxxxxxxx: Do you post on netphoria?
Pellteus has signed off

 
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Old 05-04-2009, 03:04 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corganist View Post
There's a worthy point or two in Reyngel's rambling wall of text, but there's also a lot of things that are way off base.

- For one thing, Zwan was great (at least for a time). You can bitch all you want about how you wanted them to play SP songs and they didn't, but that doesn't make the band fake or insincere or artificial. They put together a ton of great material in a pretty short amount of time. Sure, it led to a disappointing album and a sour breakup eventually, but that's not grounds for any fan to say they knew it was disaster all along. It's just not true.

- Ther poetry book. Yes, nobody bought that because Billy is a great poet. But that doesn't mean that anyone was entitled to anything other than a discussion of the poetry when they attended the events surrounding the book's release. Billy was under no obligation to answer Smashing Pumpkins questions, and had every right to get annoyed when he got them. And it's especially stupid to get all bitchy about those poetry readings considering the fact that Billy did actually play some unique stuff like some of the Chicago songs there from time to time. He didn't have to do even that much.

- The Future Embrace. The album stands on it's own, no matter what happened to be in the newspaper the day it came out. And the tour should have been allowed to stand on its own too. That's why Billy put out the ad. To say "Hey, enjoy TFE for what it is right now. If you want Pumpkins, I'll give you that later." But no, even with the promises of the eventual return of SP material, you still had impatient assholes yelling for 1979 during every show of the TFE tour. It shouldn't be hard to see where Billy would get frustrated there.

- Multiple releases of Zeitgeist. The complaining about this has gotten ridiculous. There is no reason that anyone should have had to buy 7 or 8 copies of Zeitgeist to get all the songs. There is no reason anyone should have had to spend 100 bucks to get all the songs. I bought two copies of the album. The Target version w/ Zeitgeist (the song) and the Best Buy version with Death From Above, Ma Belle, and Stellar. I was out 20 bucks when all was said and done. That was significantly better than I do for most SP releases, where there are no bonus tracks on the album and I have to track down two or 3 imported singles at 10-15 bucks a pop to gather all the extra songs.

- The Visa commercial. I'm tired of seeing this myth that Today was some sacred thing that Billy should have never ever ever sold, and that Billy has soured it by somehow mentioning it in the same sentence as money. Come on. The man had seven figures in the bank for the song before he ever wrote a single note of it. The song was a cash cow the second it came into being. That doesn't detract from the emotion of it.

Everything else, yeah, I more or less agree with.
I agree with this. His post was well written, but a bit overdone.

 
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Old 05-05-2009, 01:10 PM   #118
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I just opened an account to comment on this post. I was shocked by the content and I am happy that finally other fans are reacting to this.

The Smashing Pumpkins were such an important band for me, they helped me through some really tough times in my life, back in 1997...

But I have to say that after that year, it has been disappointment after disappointment, not just the music, but the actions.

I met Billy when he was touring with Zwan, he signed me an autograph and I complimented him for his great work with the SP, and he looked at me so serious and said an incredibly ironic "cool" turned around and walked away... I was like... wtf ?

The other members of the band were way nicer to me, especially Matt Sweeney was so nice, he was asking me "so what's your name? What do you think of the music?" and so forth... that's what I would call "connecting with the fans" Billy...

In either case I believe and support Billy if he says they were mean-spirited... he got to know them longer than I did anyway, I just met them for like 5 minutes.

The point is, I felt terribly alienated that day by Billy's reaction.

I don't need this crap in my life. But it hurts, at least in my case, the SP will always hold a special place in my heart and it bothers me that Billy screwed up so badly over the years.

At the news on the SP reunion, I have to say I was very upset when there was no news about what was the deal with D'arcy and James. For fucks sake, they were part of the SP and it would have been nice from Billy to tell us at least "They were offered to come back and they refused" if that was the case.

I didn't buy Zeitgeist, I didnt download it either as a sign of respect, but I borrowed it from a friend and it sucked so much, to this day I've only heard it once, that one time, and I dont feel the need to listen to it again as sometimes I feel the need to listen to pre-1997 songs. I enjoyed the music in "United States" but the lyrics just proved to me how little Billy understands about world politics and I felt alienated once again for following a guy who's immersed in his own world and knows so little about the real world. At least stick with poetry, don't write a political song if you don't know what the heck is really going on, you come off as an ignorant person.

His solo album was a disaster. Funny, he calls it the future embrace when he announces the reunion of his old band the very same day of its release.

The visa commercial was another disappointment, that's when I knew I had made a right decision to give up on Billy years ago, Billy's now a sellout.

Anyhow, I will not elaborate on the countless disappointments, the original post already did. I just came to say that I hope Billy reads it, because there are real fans out there who have been terribly alienated from this circle, Billy has alienated fans from the SP, band members from the SP.

I want to thank reyngel for this awesome post. I wish Billy the best but I honestly don't have any expectations.

 
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Old 05-09-2009, 09:46 PM   #119
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I logged in for the first time in years just to agree with the original post.

 
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Old 05-09-2009, 10:30 PM   #120
Thaniel Buckner
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FREAKCLIQUE

 
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