Elon Musk is a dick thread

[Toast]

Meathead is taking a break from the barren wasteland that is BlueSky to check himself into a nut hut.

[wHATcOLOR]

i never quite understand this attitude. why people try to belittle, denigrate, or in the case of policy-makers, impede elon musk. i think we are lucky that there is someone like him doing what he is doing. it's an incredible example of what someone can achieve with enough effort, intelligence, and optimism.

i will readily concede that he can be incredibly harsh in the pursuit of results. and that his sense of humor, like generally every other human ever, does not appeal to everyone. he makes mistakes, as does everyone who attempts anything.

not for nothing, the people i know in real life who've accomplished the most are the ones who have the most respect for him. and the people who constantly rail against him or mock him or whatever, generally tend not to have accomplished as much.

[redbreegull]

he is pretty evil though

[wHATcOLOR]

evil? in what way do you think he is evil?

[MyKeyZ]

Musk being in regular contact with Putin while funneling a bunch of money to Trump

Musk didn't accomplish much except being someone with money to have other people do the real work
It's his workers who make these things a reality

[MyKeyZ]

This video is frightening
We are so screwed

[ovary]

Originally Posted by wHATcOLOR

i never quite understand this attitude. why people try to belittle, denigrate, or in the case of policy-makers, impede elon musk. i think we are lucky that there is someone like him doing what he is doing. it's an incredible example of what someone can achieve with enough effort, intelligence, and optimism.

i will readily concede that he can be incredibly harsh in the pursuit of results. and that his sense of humor, like generally every other human ever, does not appeal to everyone. he makes mistakes, as does everyone who attempts anything.

not for nothing, the people i know in real life who've accomplished the most are the ones who have the most respect for him. and the people who constantly rail against him or mock him or whatever, generally tend not to have accomplished as much.

well, i think he got rich not because he has some special mixture of "effort, intelligence, and optimism," but because he figured out how to game the california carbon credit system. i've heard several long interviews with him and i've never heard any suggestion that he has some great engineering ingelligence, or any particualrly interesting experience or perspective or insight about anything. telsas are infamously poorly designed and dysfunctional--the whole company floats on having a massively inflated stock price because of his fanboys. space-x i don't know much about, other than that the whole idea of further space exploration is a total waste of resources.

other points to consider:

he's addicted to ketamine

he's a total douchebag troll on twitter

he named his child xc31nD or some shit

he is on the trump train

his government reform program thing just announced it's partnering with marjorie taylor greene

in sum, i think he's a shrewd businessman and marketer but otherwise a dumbshit fuckboy weirdo freak

[smashingjj]

Gets millions from the government and is hellbent on cutting government funding for people who actually need it

[Plasticine Rap Star]

and he can't dance.

[ovary]

i think he gets billions from the government. tesla was built on green energy tax credits (and is in business now because of biden's tariffs on the 15k chinese EVs) and space x's only customer is the government.

[wHATcOLOR]

i started drafting a post trying in good faith to address each of the things people have said after i posted, point by point. but i found it's just a poor use of time. we're seemingly so far apart in worldview that i don't think any amount of calm, fact-based discussion would change anyone's view here materially.

i will just briefly address smashingjj's one, as i know you, like you, and respect you. the first point, that elon "took millions from the government" - if you're referring to tax credits customers get when buying EVs, which help sales of EVs, those credits were available to all companies selling EVs, not just Tesla. if you're referring to the $465m department of energy loan, that was repaid in full ahead of schedule. i'm sure there are other things people have in mind as well when saying things like this, all of which have similar explanations.

in terms of being "hellbent on taking away government funding from people who actually need it" - assuming you're referring to department of governmental efficiency - you'll find that elon and vivek have stated their intent is to cut down on grift, corruption, overpayment, inefficient administration, excessive regulation and associated costs, and things of this nature. i don't imagine you're trying to defend of the contractors who sells things to the government at egregious prices because the government's procurement processes are super inefficient, for example.

the simple truth is that the way the us government has been operating over the last several administrations is not sustainable, financially. and the overspending has driven serious inflation, which hurts basically every person holding dollars. and the inefficiency such a huge government is a big tax, literal and figurative, on all taxpayers in the country. and so the fact that we have someone this capable, thick-skinned, motivated, and logical taking this on head-first, is the single-most exciting thing i've seen related to government in my lifetime.

either way, the proof will be in the pudding, in terms of what actually changes. they play to be incredibly transparent with it, which i think is great. i hope they're able to change the trajectory of government spending materially, but of course there will be backlash and resistance.

i think where i end up on this is that it doesn't matter what i think, or what any of us here think. the guy's going to do what he's going to do, and people can sling insults at him all they like, and surely will continue doing it, and i'm glad he doesn't let it slow him down. i wanted to kind of debate it a bit to try to better understand where folks who are so anti-elon are coming from, but it just seems so extreme that i can't see the back and forth being useful

[Disco King]

I intent to write a manifesto on why I think Musk blows monkey chunks. An Elongated commentary, if you will. Then we can compare and contrast omnibus posts and perhaps synthesize an understanding closest to the true measure of a Musk.

[MyOneAndOnly]

i started drafting a post trying in good faith to address each of the things wHATcOLOR has said after i posted, point by point. but i found it's just a poor use of time. we're seemingly so far apart in worldview that i don't think any amount of calm, fact-based discussion would change anyone's view here materially.

i will just briefly address wHATcOLOR's one, as i know you, like you, and respect you. the first point, that the proof "is in the pudding" - if you're referring to the actual pudding that customers get when buying from a supermarket, which is sold pre made in packages, those puddings are were available to everyone, not just those looking for proof. if you're referring to the homemade puddings, those were only for home chef's. i'm sure there are other things people have in mind as well when saying this but the problem is you're using the wrong idiom.

The correct phrase is "the proof of the pudding is in the eating".

Fuck Elon, and any of his cuck defendersl! Elon doesn't give a shit about government fiscal policy. All that POS wants to do is take away every gov function that serves working people and cut taxes on the rich, like him.

Elon has and continues to benefit greatly by government largesse. Early loans did help him build Tesla. Tesla benefits from ridiculous tax benefits in multiple states, especially Texas. Where it pays next to nothing in Taxes. All of Elon's business ventures benefit directly from lack of regulation, oversight, etc.

EV tax credits do benefit Tesla. They have a dynamic pricing model and no dealers. Tesla is able to charge more for their cars because of the credit than they would have otherwise without it. IMO these credits are more or less pointless now as economic policy. They're just funneling money indirectly to most dealers or brands for vehicles that most people can't afford even with the credit.

Also, 25% of Tesla's profits since 2018 are from credit sales, which are government program where Tesla gets paid $ as a kind of stand in for Carbon trading.

Space X is a government contractor that makes billions off contracts with the US military and NASA. They've been paid at least $20 billion by the federal government in recent years. Space X would likely not exist without it's government money.

Musk is an unregulated sociopath. No human being on earth should be allowed to have that much money. And no one with that much money is anything except an immoral evil monster. The accumulation of that much wealth is antithetical to a democratic nation and culture.

We should bring back the quillotine. There is no other way to free this country from oligarchs

[wHATcOLOR]

Originally Posted by Disco King

I intent to write a manifesto on why I think Musk blows monkey chunks. An Elongated commentary, if you will. Then we can compare and contrast omnibus posts and perhaps synthesize an understanding closest to the true measure of a Musk.

now this sounds promising

Originally Posted by MyOneAndOnly

...

this however does not

[wHATcOLOR]

Originally Posted by MyOneAndOnly

No human being on earth should be allowed to have that much money. And no one with that much money is anything except an immoral evil monster. The accumulation of that much wealth is antithetical to a democratic nation and culture.

of everything you wrote, i think this is the wildest part of all

[ovary]

Originally Posted by wHATcOLOR

the simple truth is that the way the us government has been operating over the last several administrations is not sustainable, financially. and the overspending has driven serious inflation, which hurts basically every person holding dollars. and the inefficiency such a huge government is a big tax, literal and figurative, on all taxpayers in the country. and so the fact that we have someone this capable, thick-skinned, motivated, and logical taking this on head-first, is the single-most exciting thing i've seen related to government in my lifetime.

I agree with you about the federal government being totally out-of-control with the inflation-causing growth and spending that gets eaten up by inefficiencies, fraud, waste, lawsuits, etc. I think this is a huge political problem for the democrats, and a huge economic problem for all of us.

But I'd remind you that Trump's first administration is just as culpable in creating/perpetuating that situation. He blew up the debt with his tax cuts, and increased government spending on all sorts of stuff, especially military and the first rounds of Covid stimulus. He did no significant reform of wasteful government operations, and his admin was full of shameless, blatant instances of petty corruption, funneling tax money to himself and his oligarch buddies.

Like you, I am also happy to see the creation of the DOGE commission, because it is at least raising the profile of the problem in the public political consciousness. But I'm not hopeful at all that it's going to actually make any progress, because it's run by a bunch of fucking clowns! Vivek, Musk, and fuckin' MTG? MT-jewish space lasers-G? The whole commission is named after Musk's fake meme-coin, for christsakes. This is not a serious gambit. Trump stuffed these morons into this side project to get him out of his way so he can get down to the business he's actually interested in: enriching himself and his buddies, and feeling like a big boy tweeting from the Oval Office's gold toilet.

I mean, I hope I'm wrong and the DOGE commission does some good work. I hope in twenty years I look back and find that Elon has saved us from bad government. But I haven't seen any evidence anywhere at this point to suggest that he's interested in or capable of doing that.

You said that "we're seemingly so far apart in worldview that i don't think any amount of calm, fact-based discussion would change anyone's view here materially." I'm open to Elon, man. I want to shift the economy to electricity, I want to reform government. But everything I've heard from and read about the guy makes me think he's a bullshitter (as I argued in my first post). Sounds to me like you are the one eschewing "fact-based discussion" because the results conflict with your preexisting "worldview."

[ovary]

Originally Posted by wHATcOLOR

of everything you wrote, i think this is the wildest part of all

yeah, most of her political posts just boil down to "blah blah blah, [person/thing i don't like] is an evil monster." must be nice being the only person in the world who really knows right from wrong!

[ovary]

Originally Posted by MyOneAndOnly

EV tax credits do benefit Tesla. They have a dynamic pricing model and no dealers. Tesla is able to charge more for their cars because of the credit than they would have otherwise without it. IMO these credits are more or less pointless now as economic policy. They're just funneling money indirectly to most dealers or brands for vehicles that most people can't afford even with the credit.

Also, 25% of Tesla's profits since 2018 are from credit sales, which are government program where Tesla gets paid $ as a kind of stand in for Carbon trading.

But she's right about this. This is what I'm talking about. The basic situation over the last couple decades is that Democrat admins at state and federal level have passed massive public spending to the green energy transition through creation of these carbon credit markets and incentives, but that the spending's all been gobbled up by businesspeople like Elon that have used the money to enrich themselves.

This is the problem with how both sides, but especially democrats (because Republicans don't actually legislate any new programs), have been operating government recently. These loopholes and giveaways are baked into the legislation--they say they're passing bills to "save climate" or "fix healthcare" or whatever other political issue, but it's really just a giveaway to the rich people that control the top-level operations of the markets.

So putting fuckin' Elon Musk in charge of reforming this situation is the ultimate putting-the-cookie-theif-in-charge-of-cookie-security irony. I think you're drinking his Kool Aid a bit, WhatColor.

[Elphenor]

there's so many issues to take with Elon

but the biggest one is that he's just another nepo baby who thinks his wealth entitles him to undue influence, and this nation's legion of retards encourage it

by itself it's not an exceptional case , Americans have no class awareness and the world's dumbest meritocracy mythology

but the way Elon plays into it and has made a conscious effort to scrub from the record his father's emerald mine, how he benefitted from apartheid, etc. does make him an exceptional meglomaniac ala Trump

[Elphenor]

Originally Posted by wHATcOLOR

i will readily concede that he can be incredibly harsh in the pursuit of results.

you mean his labor abuses, violation of the law, and anti-union actions right?

[MyOneAndOnly]

Originally Posted by ovary

This is the problem with how both sides, but especially democrats (because Republicans don't actually legislate any new programs), have been operating government recently. These loopholes and giveaways are baked into the legislation--they say they're passing bills to "save climate" or "fix healthcare" or whatever other political issue, but it's really just a giveaway to the rich people that control the top-level operations of the markets.

OR like many things, it benefits the professional class, but is sold as "for the middle class". They got rid of pensions that mostly benefited working people and low level white color workers. And replaced it with 401k which overwhelmingly benefit middle class and upper middle class professional class. AND the concentration of that 401k money especially benefits the large financial companies that manage the funds.

It's traditional 20th century Republican neoliberalism.

Trump's con is that he claims to be taking on the Elites that did that to working people for the past 50 years. But his core supporters, the ones that he's staffing his organization with, the ones that pay him, the ones that do his dirty work, are actually Outside Elites. They're wealthy right wingers who are NOT part of traditional republican power structures. It's suburban millionaires and first or second generation nouveau riche who resent older money and power structures and relationships. Trump is elevating them at the expense of other rich assholes like Liz Cheney. But they're all the same class of people. It's an Old money VS New Money war within the bourgeoisie.

There is not a single goddamn thing Trump will do in the next 4 years that will have a net benefit on anybody making less than $200k per year. A 10% across the board import tarriff is nothing but a 10%+ consumption tax. It's a sales tax, which is paid mostly by consumers. Someone like Cheney or other old school Republicans would have simply suggested a "consumption tax" or a straight up national sales tax (republicans have always loved that idea). But Trump knows that won't work... it pisses off working people who need needs for votes. So he's trying to implement things like this stupid tariff. Which is also a tax. But his voters have no concept of how tariff works.

[MyOneAndOnly]

Trump isn't promising to bring back Pensions, Better funded schools, or high paying stable factory jobs. He doesn't even bother with that, the way GOP insiders did for decades. No working person believes shit like that anymore. Trump blames all this on "elites," criminal illegals, gays, feminism, and liberalism. And he promises to hurt those people.

This is the politics of narcissism and pessimism. Ultimately, though, all the old money Republicans LIKE THE OUTCOME. Trump absolves them of any liability for the damage it will do to 90% of Americans, and delivers more $ to them at the same time.

That's why 99% of the Old Money go at some point to Mar A Lago and motorboat trumps asshole. Trump makes them richer and actually doesn't fuck with them, as long as they show deference.

[ovary]

i agree with you on all that, but the democrats are just as complicit in creating and perpetuating the situation. in 2024 they decided they would rather lose than attack that status-quo.

[Elphenor]

finding waste is a job for accountants... government already has them

Elon is not qualified to run a fucking audit

[smashingjj]

thanks for taking the time to engage in this discussion in a good faith way. I like and respect you as well! at this point I'm at a point where reading the news really fucking depresses me and I have to stop myself every now and then. the world seems so much in shambles and the prospect of 4 more years of Trump and all those clowns in power over the whole world depresses me just a bit more than it used to.

I could dig up the facts to corroborate my opinion but this is why I really don't feel like delving into the subject. I could also point you to some well made YouTube videos about this subject (like MyKeyz did) but this is another thing that depresses me - everyone can seemingly find any information that lines up with their world view and it seems to drive people apart instead of bringing them closer together.

i do appreciate that you actually come with some arguments which is a breath of fresh air with so much misinformation and just plain trolling.

i will give one example of what I dislike about Musk just of the top off my head. a Dutch public broadcasting channel has a successful quiz, it's been running for years now. in one of the episodes a contestant was a black activist - they invite all kinds of people all across the spectrum, and they won't typically engage in anything substantial politically, it's just a tv quiz. but for bringing this contestant the channel got so much overt racism from all kinds of shady internet folk that they felt they had to discontinue their Twitter page. there used to be people working on Twitter to keep the over the top toxic stuff out (our very own Reprise did that work for some time and I even applied once!) but all moderation is gone in the name of free speech. at the other hand, he does ban all kinds of journalists or people that oppose him in one way or another. to me that is not free speech at all, it's letting it run completely rampant. it smells more like narcissism to me than like free speech, the whole thing.

Originally Posted by wHATcOLOR

i started drafting a post trying in good faith to address each of the things people have said after i posted, point by point. but i found it's just a poor use of time. we're seemingly so far apart in worldview that i don't think any amount of calm, fact-based discussion would change anyone's view here materially.

i will just briefly address smashingjj's one, as i know you, like you, and respect you. the first point, that elon "took millions from the government" - if you're referring to tax credits customers get when buying EVs, which help sales of EVs, those credits were available to all companies selling EVs, not just Tesla. if you're referring to the $465m department of energy loan, that was repaid in full ahead of schedule. i'm sure there are other things people have in mind as well when saying things like this, all of which have similar explanations.

in terms of being "hellbent on taking away government funding from people who actually need it" - assuming you're referring to department of governmental efficiency - you'll find that elon and vivek have stated their intent is to cut down on grift, corruption, overpayment, inefficient administration, excessive regulation and associated costs, and things of this nature. i don't imagine you're trying to defend of the contractors who sells things to the government at egregious prices because the government's procurement processes are super inefficient, for example.

the simple truth is that the way the us government has been operating over the last several administrations is not sustainable, financially. and the overspending has driven serious inflation, which hurts basically every person holding dollars. and the inefficiency such a huge government is a big tax, literal and figurative, on all taxpayers in the country. and so the fact that we have someone this capable, thick-skinned, motivated, and logical taking this on head-first, is the single-most exciting thing i've seen related to government in my lifetime.

either way, the proof will be in the pudding, in terms of what actually changes. they play to be incredibly transparent with it, which i think is great. i hope they're able to change the trajectory of government spending materially, but of course there will be backlash and resistance.

i think where i end up on this is that it doesn't matter what i think, or what any of us here think. the guy's going to do what he's going to do, and people can sling insults at him all they like, and surely will continue doing it, and i'm glad he doesn't let it slow him down. i wanted to kind of debate it a bit to try to better understand where folks who are so anti-elon are coming from, but it just seems so extreme that i can't see the back and forth being useful

[MyOneAndOnly]

Originally Posted by ovary

i agree with you on all that, but the democrats are just as complicit in creating and perpetuating the situation. in 2024 they decided they would rather lose than attack that status-quo.

No. They're not. For example. Most Democrats opposed NAFTA. It was a Bush trade agreement which Clinton forced through congress using the GOP and a few conservative Dems. Democratic legislators and state officials all over the country hated it and tried to kill it.

But if you listen to trump..it was a Democrat scam!! It was all the fault of Dems!

Biden had the MOST progressive pro worker administration since FDR. He went after monopolistic big businesses. Trump never did that and never will. He, not Trump, pulled troops out of the Middle East. But if all you listen to is News Max and Facebook conspiracies, none of that happened, Trump ended the war in Afganistan, and Biden is trying to start WW3.

The neoliberal philosophy that people like Steve Bannon and Trump hates so much is pure Republicanism. It was the core of the Republican party for the past 80 years. It literally is Reaganism. It is Nixon's politics. The Democratic party has neoliberals in its leadership. But it also has a lot of younger members who don't buy into that shit. It has hard core unionists who are pro worker. It has people who are civil rights champions. It's not a monolith.

I believe Biden did fuck up. He over heated the economy with a too big economic stimulous package. And then spent 3 years telling people how great the economy was, instead of taking agressive action to stop inflation.

Biden made many of the same mistakes that Obama did. Obama watched the American Fascist Right bloom. He allowed organizations like Sinclair Media to become monopolies. He should have been trying to crush them. He allowed the GOP to steel a SCOTUS appointment at a point I history where it meant absolutely everything.

Biden should have arrested and jailed Trump in 2020 and aggressively jailed and prosecuted everyone around Trump. Bannon, Guliani, etc should have never spent another day outside of jail ever again. January 6 was America's Beer Hall Putsch. And just like The weimar republic, Democrats did not treat fascists with the ruthlessness that they deserved.

[MyOneAndOnly]

ultimately the people who are responsible for Trump are trump and his supporters. Not "Democrats who didn't want to win". The Weimar republic wasn't responsible for WW2. And despite mistakes, Biden and Pelosi are not responsible for whats about to happen. The people who call for the genocide and do the genocide are the people responsible for it

[topleybird]

Originally Posted by wHATcOLOR

in terms of being "hellbent on taking away government funding from people who actually need it" - assuming you're referring to department of governmental efficiency - you'll find that elon and vivek have stated their intent is to cut down on grift, corruption, overpayment, inefficient administration, excessive regulation and associated costs, and things of this nature.

So, here's how the federal government spends its money, and where it gets its money:



So it spent about $6 trillion last year, and Musk has said he intends to cut that by a third. Where are those cuts likely to be? You can't cut Social Security—I mean, Trump promised he wouldn't, so obviously that's off the table. (Also, the percentage of the population old enough to collect SS is only going up over time, so this number is always going to grow year-over-year. Unless you cut benefits, LOL! Obviously Trump wouldn't do that!) You can't cut military, even though we're ridiculously, ridiculously overspending on it. Sane or not, no one's going to support cutting funding to the military. (I suppose you could cut aid for veterans, but that'd be cruel! That wouldn't happen.) Cut Medicare? Another thing Trump promised not to cut...

Revenue: Trump promised not to increase taxes on individuals, so obviously you can't get more money that way. Sure would make sense to increase corporate taxes, but again, no tax increases! He promised.

Cutting individual people (Musk already called out a specific person on Twitter) absolutely will not make a dent. Departments? Agencies? Hmmmmmm. If I can drop all sarcasm here, it's obvious to me that Trump's appointees to various agencies so far are clear signs he intends to destroy or disable them. Even hardcore Trumpers are reacting badly to him appointing Dr. Fucking Oz to oversee Medicare (if I can slip back into sarcasm, though: hmm, Medicare... surely he wouldn't...). So what I see throughout this is a plan to shrink the federal government in many ways, and I'm relatively certain it's going to be through cutting all kinds of aid to people and agencies that actually keep us safe. Like, you say Musk is going to cut "excessive regulation." RFK Jr. alone is going to cut the kind of regulations at the FDA that keep food safe. I don't think anyone here has experienced a world where our food is not guaranteed to be generally safe. Vaccines save millions of lives every year. Those are going to go away. It's going to be fucking insane. I know Musk isn't RFK Jr., but looking at him and his intentions points to Trump's larger goals.

[topleybird]

God, all of this sounds like some kind of paranoid end-of-the-world fantasy about a cartoonishly, transparently evil president trying to kill as many people as possible. And yet nothing they've said or done so far points in any other direction.

[ovary]

Originally Posted by MyOneAndOnly

The neoliberal philosophy that people like Steve Bannon and Trump hates so much is pure Republicanism. It was the core of the Republican party for the past 80 years. It literally is Reaganism. It is Nixon's politics. The Democratic party has neoliberals in its leadership. But it also has a lot of younger members who don't buy into that shit. It has hard core unionists who are pro worker. It has people who are civil rights champions. It's not a monolith.

Neoliberalism's been a dem-repub consensus for decades. The dem coalition has tended to be larger and encompass more dissenting voices, but since Trump the repubs have turned on neoliberalism, while the dems have doubled down. The parties are flipping again.