Israel-Palestine Conflict Thread

[Plasticine Rap Star]

Hamas were backed into a corner and left with no choice but to rape, mutilate, and kill women and children in self-defence.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67629181

I'm not at all defending Israel's response or questioning the reality of life in Gaza or overlooking the violent history, etc. but I've seen people (not here) valorize Hamas as righteous freedom fighters simply responding to years of Israeli policy, overlooking their sadism and brutal terror tactics.

[vixnix]

From The Times

Eight weeks after the attack in which 1,200 were killed and 240 taken hostage, there is mounting evidence of widespread rape on October 7. Israeli police have begun their biggest investigation into sexual violence and crimes against women. “It’s clear now that sexual crimes were part of the planning and the purpose was to terrify and humiliate people,” says Shelly Harush, the police commander leading the investigation.

They have collected thousands of statements, photographs and video clips, which she says “as a Jewish mother the mind and soul cannot bear”, including “girls whose pelvises were broken they had been raped so much”.

…

Once the bodies were collected they were taken to the main morgue at the Shura military base to be identified and prepared for burial. Among volunteers in an all-female team to prepare female corpses was Shari, 60, an architect who lives in Jerusalem.

Working there day and night for two weeks starting the morning after, she describes scenes of unimaginable horror. “This is a huge building but there were literally body bags filling every room and lining corridors floor to ceiling, all oozing liquids.

“Opening the body bags was scary as we didn’t know what we would see. They were all young women. Most in little clothing or shredded clothing and their bodies bloodied particularly round their underwear and some women shot many times in the face as if to mutilate them.

“Their faces were in anguish and often their fingers clenched as they died. We saw women whose pelvises were broken. Legs broken. There were women who had been shot in the crotch, in the breasts … there seems no doubt what happened to them.”

[vixnix]

I feel for the good decent people of Gaza but Hamas are grim. How do I not hate them

Die in pain u scum shitbags, u are an embarrassment to our species

[Disco King]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with hating Hamas. They're awful.

[smashingjj]

Yes. They're what happens if you treat groups of people consistently as less than human; some of them will commit less-than-human acts.

[Disco King]

True, but I think it's good to be careful to make the distinction between explaining atrocities and justifying atrocities.

We can see how Israel's policies fomented this extremism while still condemning Hamas' actions as evil and unjustified.

[Machinist]

Originally Posted by Disco King

We can see how Israel's policies fomented this extremism while still condemning Hamas' actions as evil and unjustified.

It's incredible how many people can't understand this very basic point.

[MyOneAndOnly]

Originally Posted by smashingjj

Yes. They're what happens if you treat groups of people consistently as less than human; some of them will commit less-than-human acts.

Arab groups were attacking Israel like this since the day it existed. It's not just about Likud's awful policies

[smashingjj]

it's weird how they didn't just allow colonization like they were supposed to

[ilikeplanets]

Originally Posted by MyOneAndOnly

Arab groups were attacking Israel like this since the day it existed. It's not just about Likud's awful policies

And this isn't a problem that's emerged since Israel's official modern founding. It's always been.

And newsflash, Jews are from Israel and have thousands of years of history there

[ilikeplanets]

There have been land disputes for milennia, but "colonizing" is an inaccurate and loaded word choice

[ovary]

i feel like the whole conversation in this thread and in the US is basically some people saying "war crimes are always wrong" and other people saying "war crimes are okay if they're done by the good guys"

[ilikeplanets]

Originally Posted by ovary

i feel like the whole conversation in this thread and in the US is basically some people saying "war crimes are always wrong" and other people saying "war crimes are okay if they're done by the good guys"

This isn't the right distillation

There's no "good guy" and "bad guy" between Israeli and Palestinian citizens

If Hamas and its counterparts are not going to stop committing war crimes, which is apparent, why are they excused from all responsibility? Because they have a right to commit acts of terrorism? That's a thought process that's extremely loud.

[ilikeplanets]

And also not absent from this thread, which is upsetting and foolish

[john's ego]

Nobody is giving hamas a pass.

However Hamas's existence is almost entirely driven by blowback from Israel's actions. And Hamas is not an organization that's unquestioningly supported by the governments of the western nations that we all live in.

You can't unscramble an egg. But why scramble it further? The only reason is pointless cruelty. So that your children and your children's children and your children's children's children can have their first handjob on Birthright? Awesome. Definitely worth all the suffering.

[MyOneAndOnly]

Originally Posted by ovary

i feel like the whole conversation in this thread and in the US is basically some people saying "war crimes are always wrong" and other people saying "war crimes are okay if they're done by the good guys"

nobody condones civilians dying. Not when they're in Gaza. Not when they're in a Kibbutz in Israel.

The fight club in here seems more like a bunch of gentiles deciding the Jews are getting what they deserve.

[MyOneAndOnly]

When I was in school I had a lot of Lefty friends who were super into the soviets and china. They'd wear Mao hats and Lenin t shirts and thought they were all edgy and cool. It was leftist fashion and they ate it up.

Now they are all middle aged, and they go to rallies and scream "from the river to the sea" and "colonizers out of Palestine"

They jumped from venerating the leaders of mass genocide to cheering on a second holocaust.


It reminds me of all the "Liberals" who voted for Trump or the Green Party "because her emails." It's not real to them. It's just fashion and protesting.

[TuralyonW3]

Originally Posted by john's ego

Nobody is giving hamas a pass.

However Hamas's existence is almost entirely driven by blowback from Israel's actions. And Hamas is not an organization that's unquestioningly supported by the governments of the western nations that we all live in.

You can't unscramble an egg. But why scramble it further? The only reason is pointless cruelty. So that your children and your children's children and your children's children's children can have their first handjob on Birthright? Awesome. Definitely worth all the suffering.

Truth

[smashingjj]

Originally Posted by MyOneAndOnly

The fight club in here seems more like a bunch of gentiles deciding the Jews are getting what they deserve.

on the contrary, everyone here seems to agree that Hamas and its actions are atrocious. Where did you see one post that says that?

I try making a distinction between "the jews" and "Israel/its government" just like I do between Palestinians and Hamas because that distinction is of massive importance. It's also extremely important that a government can be criticized for its actions, and time and time again you seem to equate that to antisemitism.

and while indeed antisemitism is on the rise again, it's everywhere and it's just as bad as any form of racism, people are free to speak their minds on war crimes, cruelty, injustice of which the state of Israel is very guilty of and the idea that the continued slaughter of Palestinians (again, half of them are children) by the thousands still has anything to do with self defense makes no sense.

[ovary]

Originally Posted by ilikeplanets

This isn't the right distillation

There's no "good guy" and "bad guy" between Israeli and Palestinian citizens

If Hamas and its counterparts are not going to stop committing war crimes, which is apparent, why are they excused from all responsibility? Because they have a right to commit acts of terrorism? That's a thought process that's extremely loud.

nobody is saying hamas should be "excused from responsibility" or that "hamas has a right to do war crimes"; they're saying israel shouldn't do war crimes. see my original point.

Originally Posted by MyOneAndOnly

nobody condones civilians dying. Not when they're in Gaza. Not when they're in a Kibbutz in Israel.

so can you just say "israel should stop doing war crimes right now?" if so i think we're all basically in agreement.

[ilikeplanets]

Originally Posted by john's ego

You can't unscramble an egg. But why scramble it further? The only reason is pointless cruelty. So that your children and your children's children and your children's children's children can have their first handjob on Birthright? Awesome. Definitely worth all the suffering.

Israel isn't a vacation destination, and this statement is so crass and idiotic. That's what I meant earlier about being safe enough in your life to say this racist shit. At least you finally admitted that Israel's existence isn't "worth it" to you.

[TuralyonW3]

I like planets you’re a little untethered at this point. Calling that statement “racist” is idiotic. You keep falling back on tired old defenses of the Jewish “cause” or whatever while missing the bigger picture of what’s happening. Women and children are being needlessly slaughtered by the thousands.

[TuralyonW3]

Like have you ever taken a world history class or anything? Nothing will ever change the absolute horror of the Holocaust, but dozens of cultures worldwide have suffered and bled and died for homelands that have risen and fallen over the centuries. Jews are not better or worse than other humans. The Israeli state killing all these women and kids, EVEN in the face of Hamas’ horrible terrorist attack that killed 1200 is UNCONSCIONABLE. Seeing you and my one and only do mental gymnastics to justify it is gross.

[TuralyonW3]

Yes I’m aware that many racist Arabs would be happy for Jews to all die, but quit acting like the world is against Israel. People just want all the slaughtering of innocents to stop, and then for Israel to end the Apartheid state that led to the Hamas attack in the first place.

[ilikeplanets]

I can see you:


"Calling that statement “racist” is idiotic. You keep falling back on tired old defenses of the Jewish “cause” or whatever

Like have you ever taken a world history class or anything? Nothing will ever change the absolute horror of the Holocaust, but dozens of cultures worldwide have suffered and bled and died for homelands that have risen and fallen over the centuries.

Yes I’m aware that many racist Arabs would be happy for Jews to all die, but"

[ilikeplanets]

I'm not saying Jewish suffering is worse than any group suffering, but you consistently make it seem like less

[ilikeplanets]

I'm going to reiterate that I also want all the slaughtering of all innocents everywhere to stop, forever. And I equally realize the absolute necessity of Israel to make that a reality.

[TuralyonW3]

Originally Posted by ilikeplanets

I'm going to reiterate that I also want all the slaughtering of all innocents everywhere to stop, forever. And I equally realize the absolute necessity of Israel to make that a reality.

Honestly this is where I’m at so we’re on same page there.

Not sure what the “I see you” comment means above, you were just quoting my posts.

I would be honestly curious for you to point out a statement I’ve made in this thread that positions a Jewish person as less than equal.

[ilikeplanets]

Those quotes were things you said that are extremely dismissive, and hard to tolerate

They do make the tragedies in Jewish history feel like less. I never said you attack the equality of Jewish individuals, but there's a noticeable air of minimization when it comes to the Jewish people almost being completely eradicated, multiple times.

[ilikeplanets]

I'm sure at the core, we are all wanting something very similar that seems unattainable as long as there is targeted mass murder, on every side

Except for johns ego, he is clearly chasing chaos