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Old 11-27-2023, 06:16 PM   #151
MyOneAndOnly
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Why is it something like genocide when Jews bomb Arab terrorist organizations, but when Arabs bomb Jews it's not? Arab groups have been attempting to invade, bomb, and terrorize Israel since 1947. Israel is surrounded by governments and organizations that publicly support the expulsion of Jews and destruction of the state of Israel. How is that not ethnic cleansing?

The current Israeli government IS making things worse. They pay "settlers" to attack Arabs in the west bank and steal land. And they use Hamas as an excuse to mistreat Palestinians. The reason Likud pushes Settlements is to stop the creation of a Palestinian State in the West Bank. BUT.... Most jews don't support Likud and Bib, or their policiesi. But they also can't turn the other cheek when 1,400 Israelis are slaughtered in their homes on one day.

Egypt, Jordan, and Syria don't want Palestinians in their countries. Despite the fact that Jordan and Syria were made-up whole cloth by the UN and the British, less than 100 years ago. Those lands together with Israel were all part of "Palestine," which was administered by the Ottoman Empire for 400 years, then by the British. Nobody living in Syria, Jordan, etc before 1947 called themselves Palestinian. Palestinian identity didn't exist until after the establishment of the State of Israel. And then only for Arabs living within the borders of Israel.

It's not just Israel maintaining a fortified boarder with the West bank and Gaza. Jordan doesn't let Arabs living in West Bank to enter into Jordan either.

It's not just Israel

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Old 11-27-2023, 07:39 PM   #152
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Edit: Lord I just gotta stay out of this

 
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Old 11-27-2023, 07:45 PM   #153
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you get in here and solve the situation right now janis!

 
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Old 11-27-2023, 07:54 PM   #154
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Old 11-28-2023, 04:50 PM   #155
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We don’t want no 2 state
We want ‘48

 
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Old 11-28-2023, 09:31 PM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MyOneAndOnly View Post
Why is it something like genocide when Jews bomb Arab terrorist organizations, but when Arabs bomb Jews it's not? Arab groups have been attempting to invade, bomb, and terrorize Israel since 1947. Israel is surrounded by governments and organizations that publicly support the expulsion of Jews and destruction of the state of Israel. How is that not ethnic cleansing?
the difference is between "publcly supporting" a potential future genlcide vs actually carrying out a genocide. or whatever word you want to use for it.

 
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Old 11-29-2023, 11:23 AM   #157
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Can't help myself goddamnit: If Kevin mugs someone, but only because he'd previously been robbed of everything he had and he needs money to pay for his mom's life-saving surgery, that's certainly important context. But he still mugged someone.

 
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Old 11-29-2023, 02:58 PM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MyOneAndOnly View Post
Why is it something like genocide when Jews bomb Arab terrorist organizations,
What makes the bombings bad is that they are barely trying to minimize civilian casualties.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MyOneAndOnly View Post
but when Arabs bomb Jews it's not? Arab groups have been attempting to invade, bomb, and terrorize Israel since 1947. Israel is surrounded by governments and organizations that publicly support the expulsion of Jews and destruction of the state of Israel. How is that not ethnic cleansing?
"Other people are doing bad stuff" seems to me to be the weakest defense of one side doing bad stuff.

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Originally Posted by MyOneAndOnly View Post
The current Israeli government IS making things worse. They pay "settlers" to attack Arabs in the west bank and steal land. And they use Hamas as an excuse to mistreat Palestinians. The reason Likud pushes Settlements is to stop the creation of a Palestinian State in the West Bank. BUT.... Most jews don't support Likud and Bib, or their policiesi.
It's a good thing nobody in this thread is criticizing or implicating "most Jews," then.

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Originally Posted by MyOneAndOnly View Post
Egypt, Jordan, and Syria don't want Palestinians in their countries. Despite the fact that Jordan and Syria were made-up whole cloth by the UN and the British, less than 100 years ago. Those lands together with Israel were all part of "Palestine," which was administered by the Ottoman Empire for 400 years, then by the British. Nobody living in Syria, Jordan, etc before 1947 called themselves Palestinian. Palestinian identity didn't exist until after the establishment of the State of Israel. And then only for Arabs living within the borders of Israel.
I never understand why some people seem to suggest that whether it's bad to violently displace 700,000 people from their homes comes down to whether those people constituted a national identity at the time, or for how long they did. Why does it matter how long the "Palestinian identity" existed for? If I go to a place with hundreds of thousands of isolated households who do not share a common culture and expel them all from their homes to take them for myself, is that somehow less bad than if all those households all observed the same holidays and ate the same food or whatever? That seems to me to be some kind of weird, nationalist, primordialist thinking. I don't care about nations. I care about people. Maybe one of the many ways that people end up constituting a people is experiencing some shared historical trauma, like being violently displaced from their homes.

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Originally Posted by MyOneAndOnly View Post
It's not just Israel maintaining a fortified boarder with the West bank and Gaza. Jordan doesn't let Arabs living in West Bank to enter into Jordan either.

It's not just Israel
Okay, but one of these regions is the one that the people currently living in Gaza and the West Bank were displaced from.

 
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Old 11-29-2023, 04:56 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by topleybird View Post
Can't help myself goddamnit: If Kevin mugs someone, but only because he'd previously been robbed of everything he had and he needs money to pay for his mom's life-saving surgery, that's certainly important context. But he still mugged someone.
You forgot the part where the guy Kevin is mugging tried to kill him

 
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Old 11-29-2023, 04:59 PM   #160
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I'm glad that Disco King feels safe enough in his life to care about people and not nations

I care about people too, but that's a very Western/privileged way to view this, and that's the problem with most of the arguments unequivocally for Palestine that I've read here

 
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Old 11-29-2023, 06:00 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by ilikeplanets View Post
You forgot the part where the guy Kevin is mugging tried to kill him
You're making my point for me: you insist on adding complicated context to the story rather than truly engaging with the plain facts of it. You won't say that Kevin mugged the guy. All you'll say is "What about the other guy, though, let's look at his life." As I said: important context in terms of sentencing him. But it doesn't change whether or not Kevin mugged him.

 
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Old 11-29-2023, 06:03 PM   #162
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Except for the self-defense component, which makes it not a random and aggressive mugging anymore

 
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Old 11-29-2023, 06:20 PM   #163
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Sorry, are you saying the other guy is actively trying to kill Kevin while Kevin is mugging him, and so the mugging actually becomes self-defense? Or that the other guy, at some point in the past, tried to kill Kevin and so Kevin is... mugging him in self-defense? And, like, see how you added "random and aggressive" as a description of the mugging, when I never said that? I said it was a mugging, no adjective. But you're adding to it.

This is also, again, you making my point for me: now you've made this a discussion about an imperfect analogy rather than about whether Israel is engaged in ethnic cleansing. You may say, well, I started it. Which would also be making my point for me.

 
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Old 11-29-2023, 06:24 PM   #164
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Also, this?

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Originally Posted by ilikeplanets View Post
I'm glad that Disco King feels safe enough in his life to care about people and not nations
Is a fucking terrifying thing to say, particularly in the context of a nation attacking a people.

 
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Old 11-29-2023, 07:00 PM   #165
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It's a dumb thing he said, nothing terrifying about calling out the idea that some people can be safe without a nation. Including both sides of this conflict.

 
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Old 11-29-2023, 07:37 PM   #166
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I'm not sure I understand. Why is it dumb to say that violently expelling 750,000 people from their homes is still bad even when those 750,000 people didn't constitute a unified nation, because the important thing is that they are 750,000 people, and not whether they are culturally unified in some way?

 
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Old 11-30-2023, 11:26 AM   #167
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Gotta love the appropriation of wokespeak to excuse a genocide.

Check your privilege!

 
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Old 11-30-2023, 11:37 AM   #168
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Fucking liberal zionists i swear to god

 
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Old 11-30-2023, 09:42 PM   #169
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It has nothing to do with Zionism

It's dumb to act like disjointed, persecuted groups of people can be safe without a nation

It is idealistic to think that having a nation doesn't matter. Kumbaya!

 
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Old 11-30-2023, 10:05 PM   #170
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But there's also the real reality that conditions have been so bad for Gazans that quite a few of them have been driven to radicalization.

The fact that another party will do bad things isn't really a moral justification to continue doing something ethically horrible yourself, especially when you've created the desperation that allowed the extremist group to gain acolytes in the first place. It doesn't really cut ice to say "well, we've got to continue committing humanitarian atrocities or else bad things will happen to us.

The fighting in the region did not start with Gaza. You're all very dismissive of any element of self-defense on the part of Jews and Israelis. It's not just that people in Gaza have been "radicalized." Israel's offers have been refused every time, and they have been attacked for decades with the intention of their destruction. Because they now have a larger military does not mean they are aggressors, which when you distill your point of view is what you seem to be saying. The current situation escalated due to a terrorist attack, which was a final straw in a century-spanning history of attacks, displacement, and death. Of Jews in that region!! That's not even getting into those Jews booted from or murdered in other countries around the world. What you're saying doesn't consider their fight for self-preservation as a response to worldwide and regional persecution. Or that's not important enough and nations are stupid.

 
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Old 11-30-2023, 10:47 PM   #171
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I need a really long break from here, I haven't been okay about any of this

 
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Old 12-02-2023, 04:47 PM   #172
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Over 10,000 women and children killed in Gaza:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/gaza-...b028b0f3d041c9

Last edited by TuralyonW3 : 12-02-2023 at 05:45 PM.

 
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Old 12-02-2023, 10:48 PM   #173
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Serves them right for not having westphalian sovereignty

 
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Old 12-03-2023, 11:50 AM   #174
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Just need to point out that it's currently unclear how many Israeli people were killed by the IDF on 07Oct2023:
https://www.factcheck.org/2023/11/so...rcraft-attack/

https://new.thecradle.co/articles-id/13111

Official stance is "we cannot say", but Hamas doesn't have Apache helicopters, and there's quite a bit of photographic evidence of Israeli people who were clearly killed by said helicopters based on burn marks at the sites

Roughly 200 Palestinian bodies have been removed from the Israeli body count:
https://www.npr.org/2023/11/11/12124...-attacks-oct-7
" Many of the bodies were burned and mutilated that day, and the process of identifying them is still underway."

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20...ober-7-report/

It's going to come out eventually that a significant portion of Israeli people were, either accidentally or as a a matter of protocol, killed by their own defense forces that day.

https://www.liberationnews.org/evide...-blamed-hamas/

There's obviously no justification for acts of terrorism and mass violence, and it's disappointing but perhaps not surprising that this even needs to be said. Take a look at the response from Israel and ask yourself if it's proportional or if it's being handled well. Consider the history of the conflict and who has been the oppressor and who has been oppressed. Consider how the terror is being multiplied and amplified back out into the world by Israel's leadership, and what consequences that might have in years or decades.

 
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Old 12-03-2023, 11:53 AM   #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TuralyonW3 View Post
Over 10,000 women and children killed in Gaza:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/gaza-...b028b0f3d041c9
Why do you hate freedom?

Sorry, I mean why are you an anti-Semite?

 
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Old 12-03-2023, 12:04 PM   #176
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For anyone who needs help talking about the conflict objectively around the table at Christmas dinner:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/...aps-and-charts

tl;dr - claims made by Israeli leadership that Gaza is no longer occupied by Israel are complete bullshit according to the definition of occupation as per the UN and numerous human rights organizations

 
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Old 12-03-2023, 09:56 PM   #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by killtrocity View Post
For anyone who needs help talking about the conflict objectively around the table at Christmas dinner:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/...aps-and-charts

tl;dr - claims made by Israeli leadership that Gaza is no longer occupied by Israel are complete bullshit according to the definition of occupation as per the UN and numerous human rights organizations
There are literally Israeli troops in Gaza now... but the Israeli military left Gaza in Sept 2005. Israel troops were out of Gaza for 19 years.

 
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Old 12-03-2023, 09:59 PM   #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by killtrocity View Post
Just need to point out that it's currently unclear how many Israeli people were killed by the IDF on 07Oct2023:
https://www.factcheck.org/2023/11/so...rcraft-attack/

https://new.thecradle.co/articles-id/13111

Official stance is "we cannot say", but Hamas doesn't have Apache helicopters, and there's quite a bit of photographic evidence of Israeli people who were clearly killed by said helicopters based on burn marks at the sites

Roughly 200 Palestinian bodies have been removed from the Israeli body count:
https://www.npr.org/2023/11/11/12124...-attacks-oct-7
" Many of the bodies were burned and mutilated that day, and the process of identifying them is still underway."

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20...ober-7-report/

It's going to come out eventually that a significant portion of Israeli people were, either accidentally or as a a matter of protocol, killed by their own defense forces that day.

https://www.liberationnews.org/evide...-blamed-hamas/

There's obviously no justification for acts of terrorism and mass violence, and it's disappointing but perhaps not surprising that this even needs to be said. Take a look at the response from Israel and ask yourself if it's proportional or if it's being handled well. Consider the history of the conflict and who has been the oppressor and who has been oppressed. Consider how the terror is being multiplied and amplified back out into the world by Israel's leadership, and what consequences that might have in years or decades.
Wow. What's next? You going to claim the ovens at Auschwitz weren't a crematorium?

 
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Old 12-04-2023, 05:27 AM   #179
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Yes cause any and all criticism with regards to the state of Israel and its government is always exactly the same as antisemitism. If you think Gazans have it bad, the only outcome is that you're a holocaust denier. This is simple science.

 
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Old 12-04-2023, 11:15 AM   #180
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Associated Press are being very antisemitic

https://apnews.com/article/da582f11a...44ea6f2fc72c3a

JERUSALEM (AP) — Israel’s Supreme Court on Thursday rejected a legal challenge to the military’s rules on when soldiers can fire their weapons amid weeks of violent protests that have killed dozens of Palestinians on the border with Gaza.

Six human rights groups had asked the court to declare as unlawful any regulations that allow soldiers to open fire at unarmed civilians.

But in its unanimous ruling, the court sided with the Israeli military, which argued that the protests were taking place in the context of a long-running armed conflict with the Islamic militant group Hamas which rules Gaza and that weapons-use regulations are subject to the rules of armed conflict. Such rules provide greater leeway for the use of lethal force than those governing law enforcement practices.

Yesh Din, one of the rights groups that brought the challenge, slammed the court’s decision.

“The judges missed an opportunity to prevent the continuation of the killing and injuries,” the group said on Twitter.

Israeli fire has killed more than 100 Palestinians in weeks of violent protests along Israel’s border with the Gaza Strip. Nearly 60 of those were killed May 14, the deadliest protest day that also saw hundreds of Palestinians wounded.

Organizers said the protests were meant in part to break a decade-old Israeli-Egyptian blockade on the Gaza Strip. But Israel, which has faced blistering international criticism over its response, accuses Hamas of using the weekly border protests as cover to stage attacks.

The Israeli army has defended its actions. It points to the violent history of Hamas, says there have been shootings and bombing attacks against its forces, and fears a mass border breach.

On Twitter, Israeli Defense Minister Avigdor Lieberman welcomed the ruling and criticized the rights groups for challenging the military.

 
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