Israel-Palestine Conflict Thread

[TuralyonW3]

https://www.thenation.com/article/wo...m-nikki-haley/

“As Jews, we have an obligation to make clear in our own communities that anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism—and that the calls for a cease-fire shouldn’t be feared but embraced. We are already doing this at demonstrations around the world, and it marks a profound political shift. An entire generation of young Jews, to paraphrase Peter Beinert a decade ago, are feeling forced to choose between their progressive principles and support for Israel’s total war—and they are choosing their principles. Through organizations like Jewish Voice for Peace and If Not Now, Jewish youth are looking at Israel’s human rights violations and saying clearly, “Not in our name.”

That’s what truly upsets Haley and Netanyau—not the spread of anti-Semitism, but people’s refusal to be pawns in their game.”

[TuralyonW3]

https://www.nplusonemag.com/online-o...us-conflation/

“ Accusations of antisemitism at the slightest objection to Israeli policy have long allowed Israel to uphold a regime that human rights groups, scholars, legal analysts, and Palestinian and Israeli organizations have called apartheid. These accusations continue to cast a chilling effect across our politics. This has meant political suppression in Gaza and the West Bank, where the Israeli government conflates the very existence of Palestinian people with Jew hatred the world over. In propaganda aimed internally at its own citizens and externally toward the West, the Israeli government asserts that Palestinian grievance is not about land, mobility, rights, or freedom, but instead, antisemitism. In the last weeks, Israeli leaders have continued to instrumentalize the history of Jewish trauma to dehumanize Palestinians. Meanwhile, Israelis are arrested or suspended from their jobs for social media posts defending Gaza. Israeli journalists fear consequences for criticizing their government.

Characterizing all critiques of Israel as antisemitic also conflates Israel and all Jewish people in the popular imagination. In the last two weeks, we’ve seen Democrats and Republicans alike gate-keep Jewish identity on the basis of support for Israel. A vague letter signed by dozens of public figures and published on October 23 parroted President Biden’s positioning of himself as an advocate for Jewish people based on his support for Israel. When the 92NY postponed an event with author Viet Thanh Nguyen, who had recently signed a letter calling for an end to Israel’s attacks on Gaza, its statement began by forefronting its identity as “a Jewish institution.” As others have observed, tools to historicize the October 7 attacks are seen as a repudiation of Jewish suffering rather than necessary to understand and end such violence.

The idea that all criticism of Israel is antisemitic extends a view of Palestinians, Arabs, and Muslims as inherently suspect; agents of antisemitism until they explicitly say otherwise. Since October 7, Palestinian journalists have faced unprecedented suppression. A Palestinian citizen of Israel was fired from his job at an Israeli hospital for a Facebook post from 2022 that quoted the first pillar of Islam. European leaders have banned pro-Palestine protests and criminalized displays of the Palestinian flag. In London, a hospital recently took down artwork by children from Gaza after a pro-Israel group claimed it made Jewish patients feel “vulnerable, harassed and victimized.” Somehow, even artwork by Palestinian children was accompanied by a hallucination of violence.

US leaders have welcomed this chance to further conflate Jewish safety with unquestioning, unwavering military funding for Israel with no intention of making peace. On October 13, the US State Department circulated an internal memo urging officials not to use the language of “de-escalation/ceasefire,” “end to violence/bloodshed,” or “restoring calm.” On October 25, Biden doubted the Palestinian death toll and called it the “price” of Israel’s war. Such cruel logic will continue to foster both antisemitism and Islamophobia. The Department of Homeland Security is preparing for an expected rise in hate crimes against both Jews and Muslims—it has already begun.

For each of us, Jewish identity is not a weapon to wield in a fight for statist power but a fount of generational wisdom that says justice, justice, you shall pursue. Tzedek, tzedek, tirdof. We object to the exploitation of our pain and the silencing of our allies.

We call for a ceasefire in Gaza, a solution for the safe return of the hostages in Gaza and Palestinian prisoners in Israel, and an end to Israel’s ongoing occupation. We also call on governments and civil society in the United States and across the West to stand up against the repression of support for Palestine. ”. Signed by dozens of Jewish thinkers/artists etc


Wake up

[TuralyonW3]

Even pundits who fully support Israel’s response to the Hamas attack say they’re doing it really badly:

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/02/opini...hal/index.html

[ilikeplanets]

That is ideological. No one has found a way to make it true. Most people that are wary of a ceasefire aren't bloodthirsty.

[ilikeplanets]

As someone who hates violence, war, power, conquest, and wishes for literal utopia and equality, this has been a very inwardly tumultuous time.

Your quotes are from neatly-packaged public speakers. I am heavily involved in Jewish spaces and always have been. Personally, within my community, online, near and far. Like I said, no one wants war and violence, but most are not as trusting as the picture you're painting. Can you not understand why? And every single leftist Jew is feeling hurt, shaken, and betrayed by at least one part of their identity.

[topleybird]

Originally Posted by MyOneAndOnly

WTF are Jews supposed to do when they're being attacked?

How about not destroying Gaza's communications network so no one can, say, get an ambulance when their home has been destroyed and they're bleeding out? How about not bombing hospitals and refugee camps, then claiming "Oh well there was a Hamas guy there" as though that justifies killing dozens of innocent people? How about not telling one of the most overpopulated regions in the world to cram into the south part within an hour's time? How about not typing up a plan to force everyone out of Gaza once and for all? How about not using white phosphorus?

Christ, the idea that they're "being bombed" so why not "bomb back" as though we're talking about two roughly equal military forces. Hamas is metaphorically throwing rocks at a tank battalion here. Of course they can defend themselves from attack. It's the way they're doing it that's unconscionable and clearly aimed at doing far, far more than defending themselves. They're out to end this once and for all, and they do not care who they kill in the process.

If this were any other country in the world you'd be equally horrified at what they're doing. This catchall "well they're just fighting back" while they commit war crime after war crime is utter bullshit.

[TuralyonW3]

Originally Posted by ilikeplanets

As someone who hates violence, war, power, conquest, and wishes for literal utopia and equality, this has been a very inwardly tumultuous time.

Your quotes are from neatly-packaged public speakers. I am heavily involved in Jewish spaces and always have been. Personally, within my community, online, near and far. Like I said, no one wants war and violence, but most are not as trusting as the picture you're painting. Can you not understand why? And every single leftist Jew is feeling hurt, shaken, and betrayed by at least one part of their identity.

I would never invalidate the pain you or anyone else feels for your family members being attacked or in danger.

The quotes are from Jews, and they are valid and true. Not sure what you mean by neatly packaged.

My issue is with the blindness Israelis have for their role/responsibility in this, based on their actions since their existence. (Much like American interference in Middle East leading to 9/11, a horrendous attack but a unfortunate consequence.) There needs to be a ceasefire and a serious effort at a 2-state solution (and international aid is needed to be fair…see that last article I posted, the stance of Arab and other states makes things really complicated).

[topleybird]

Originally Posted by TuralyonW3

I would never invalidate the pain you or anyone else feels for your family members being attacked or in danger.

This is an important point, and one I don't think I considered enough in the post above. Obviously Israel is not "any other country," for instance; there's a particular importance and complexity to its existence. And I get that there's an awful lot of antisemitism out there, today and throughout history. It's a touchy subject.

And to be super, super-clear, I think Israel absolutely has the right to exist. I just think Palestine does as well, and to me it sure looks like Israel is proceeding to wipe Palestine off the map, kill as many Palestinians as possible, and force any survivors into other countries to be stripped of their identity. And I see western media going "well Israel said there were Hamas tunnels under that hospital, so they're just defending themselves" and I'm just absolutely flabbergasted. Imagine CNN proudly reporting that cops here in the States had eliminated an active shooter in a full school by bombing the school.

[redbreegull]

There will never be a two state solution, unless there is a fundamental change in leadership and ideology on both sides. You might as well wish for apple pie to fall from the heavens

Israeli occupation is the root cause of the violence, but the right wing extremists among the Palestinians have been equally as obstinate in accepting anything but 100% of their agenda, which includes right of return. That’s an existential threat to the Jewish state and is more fantastical than two state pie from the sky.

[Toast]

[Toast]

Originally Posted by TheAlter

Oh boy

What a couple of hot babes.

[MyOneAndOnly]

Originally Posted by redbreegull

There will never be a two state solution, unless there is a fundamental change in leadership and ideology on both sides. You might as well wish for apple pie to fall from the heavens

Israeli occupation is the root cause of the violence, but the right wing extremists among the Palestinians have been equally as obstinate in accepting anything but 100% of their agenda, which includes right of return. That’s an existential threat to the Jewish state and is more fantastical than two state pie from the sky.

What does Israel occupy exactly? Israel left Gaza two decades ago. Prior to 1967 Gaza was part of Egypt. Gaza City was part of Egypt. Gazans were Egyptian!!! Egypt could open their boarder to Gaza, and let everyone living there back into Egypt anytime they want. But after 56 years they still haven't done that. Why no anger toward Egypt?


Israeli (Likud's) policy is shit, and making things worse. But Arab violence against Jews predates all of this. Literally the day the British left, all of the Neighboring countries tried to invade Israel and take over. And it hasn't stopped since. Those same Arab states continue to funnel weapons into Gaza and the West bank, and use Palestinians as cannon fodder against Israel.

all the complaining in the USA about Israel, and almost no mention ever about how and who is funding the training and arming of Hamas.

[smashingjj]

Originally Posted by MyOneAndOnly

What does Israel occupy exactly?

again, they maintain Gaza as an open air prison, inhabitants of this tiny strip of land have absolutely no where else to go, Israel controls their water, gas and electricity, Israel controls the Gaza Strips airspace and territorial waters.

Originally Posted by MyOneAndOnly

Prior to 1967 Gaza was part of Egypt. Gaza City was part of Egypt. Gazans were Egyptian!!!

you must forgive me for calling Gazans the original inhabitants, but this argument cuts no wood either. Egypt occupied until 1967, yes. But if you ignore the fact that that occupation started in 1959, you're not making a fair argument. They were Egypians for 8 years, much like the Dutch were "germans" for 5 years.

Originally Posted by MyOneAndOnly

Egypt could open their boarder to Gaza, and let everyone living there back into Egypt anytime they want. But after 56 years they still haven't done that. Why no anger toward Egypt?

Because Egypt isn't massacring Gazans. Israel is, killing thousands of people, half of them children. Of course that's what people are angry about first. In numbers of killed people, the Israeli government is worse than Hamas by a factor of 20. of course it's absolutely shit that Egypt does not open their border, but that's not the core of the problem.

Originally Posted by MyOneAndOnly

Israeli (Likud's) policy is shit, and making things worse. But Arab violence against Jews predates all of this. Literally the day the British left, all of the Neighboring countries tried to invade Israel and take over. And it hasn't stopped since. Those same Arab states continue to funnel weapons into Gaza and the West bank, and use Palestinians as cannon fodder against Israel.

all the complaining in the USA about Israel, and almost no mention ever about how and who is funding the training and arming of Hamas.

Israel's far right government is only making things worse and your government is giving them billions of dollars to make sure they are. they're only making sure people are suffering in such numbers that the violence will never end as a result.

[smashingjj]

and god forbid people call it a genocide, although it ticks all the boxes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palest...ide_accusation

[Because]

smashingjj, turalyon and and ovary are basically the only ones speaking any actual truth itt

most of the rest of you are delusional

[smashingjj]

I keep telling them

[ilikeplanets]

Originally Posted by Shallowed

smashingjj, turalyon and and ovary are basically the only ones speaking any actual truth itt

most of the rest of you are delusional

No, if you think I am delusional then you're focusing only on what's happening to Palestinians (astronomically important) but ignoring the horrors towards Israelis and Jews both historically and today. It's not good guy vs bad guy.

[ilikeplanets]

And thinking that a safe two-state solution is realistic is extremely delusional

[TuralyonW3]

Originally Posted by ilikeplanets

And thinking that a safe two-state solution is realistic is extremely delusional

Better kill ‘em all then!

[ovary]

remember, it's not a genocide if they had it coming

[smashingjj]

Originally Posted by ilikeplanets

No, if you think I am delusional then you're focusing only on what's happening to Palestinians (astronomically important)

yeah this "astronomically important" thing is fingernails on a chalkboard. They're being slaughtered by the thousands but that's no biggie because they are Palestinians

[ilikeplanets]

I'm not sure who itt was ever delusional about those horrors. Not me.

[ilikeplanets]

Originally Posted by TuralyonW3

Better kill ‘em all then!

Who the fuck here ever said that?! Don't ever suggest that about me again. You or JJ or anyone.

This conflict isn't able to be reduced to the simplicity you're trying to force upon it. What's your reasonable fix?

I've been emotionally tortured about this for a month now. Israel just ceasing to exist where it is won't be any kind of answer. The ripple effect of that would be so much more dangerous than you think. Even in your country. Palestinian leadership is intertwined with a terrorist organization that wants groups of people, entire countries, dead and gone forever. They struck first, and have not and will not comply with any ceasefire. They have not given back the hostages, some of which are also children.

And what about displacing the people that live there now? The same thing would be happening to Israeli citizens as to Palestinians. Where should Israel go?

[ilikeplanets]

Originally Posted by ovary

remember, it's not a genocide if they had it coming

These intentional misrepresentations of what I'm saying and vaguely antisemitic attempts at bullying me into thinking Israel Bad Palestine Innocent History Unimportant are fucking gross

[smashingjj]

I'm going to remove all the incessant trolling people still feel is necessary from now on

[smashingjj]

Originally Posted by ilikeplanets

Who the fuck here ever said that?! Don't ever suggest that about me again. You or JJ or anyone.

I never did

Originally Posted by ilikeplanets

This conflict isn't able to be reduced to the simplicity you're trying to force upon it. What's your reasonable fix?

I've been emotionally tortured about this for a month now. Israel just ceasing to exist where it is won't be any kind of answer. The ripple effect of that would be so much more dangerous than you think. Even in your country. Palestinian leadership is intertwined with a terrorist organization that wants groups of people, entire countries, dead and gone forever. They struck first, and have not and will not comply with any ceasefire. They have not given back the hostages, some of which are also children.

And what about displacing the people that live there now? The same thing would be happening to Israeli citizens as to Palestinians. Where should Israel go?

no one is saying Israel should not exist and it's wild to me that any criticism whatsoever to its nationalist fundamentalist government is immediately being interpret or reduced to "Israel should not exist" or some other extreme stance. again, no one is saying this, you are though.

it's also ridiculous to respond like this when the only point clearly being made is "stop the mass murder of innocent people". is it antisemitic to say that?

[smashingjj]

toast and alter, you're adding nothing to the discussion and you're only in it for getting a reaction out of someone. You will be banned if you continue.

[smashingjj]

you're not expressing anything and I've had it with the mind numbing attempts at trolling while people are having a conversation

again, you will be banned if you continue

[Toast]

I wholeheartedly apologize for my previous comments and hope Palestine takes what’s theirs. Please take into account the fact that I’ve been a member of Netphoria, in good standing, for over one-and-twenty years.

[ilikeplanets]

Originally Posted by smashingjj

I never did



no one is saying Israel should not exist and it's wild to me that any criticism whatsoever to its nationalist fundamentalist government is immediately being interpret or reduced to "Israel should not exist" or some other extreme stance. again, no one is saying this, you are though.

it's also ridiculous to respond like this when the only point clearly being made is "stop the mass murder of innocent people". is it antisemitic to say that?

Do you think the Palestinian leadership side is not attempting the mass murder of innocent people? Do you think this isn't a fight for existence between Israel and Palestine? Because it is.

I have every same critical opinion of their government but won't be fooled by some shiny notion that a ceasefire will lead to a safe solution where everyone has an equal, democratic country if they put the bombs away.

Framing it that Israel is power-hungry, aggressive, and ruthless without the same sentiment regarding the other side is teetering into antisemitic territory, yes.