Israel-Palestine Conflict Thread

[ovary]

Originally Posted by MyOneAndOnly

What are the war crimes? What should Israel do instead? Hamas fills the basement of an apartment building (which is full of civilians) with weapons, and launches rockets from the roof. How does Israel stop the rockets?

Hamas misfires a rocket and blows up a hospital, and white liberal in America is blaming Israel for it.

Saying "be nice to Palestinians" doesn't stop the thousands of explosives being launched every day by Hamas. It doesn't stop Iran from funding death squads.

The war crimes are a food, water, fuel blockade of Gaza, indiscriminate bombing of civilians, and forced removals. Duh! Hamas' actions are also war crimes, obviously, but they're a terrorist organization. That's kind of their "thing." Their atrocities are traps intended to provoke, just like 9/11.

Israel should/is already stopping the rockets with the Iron Dome.

I am not convinced any Hamas rocket has the capability to cause that much damage to the hospital, and of course do not trust the word of the IDF or the US CIA. I feel like typically you yourself display a reasonable skepticism of US/CIA claims. Not sure why this time you're taking their word at face value. Honestly I am surprised by the rigidity of your take on this issue generally.

[ovary]

Originally Posted by MyOneAndOnly

Maybe when you listen to people who call Hamas "freedom fighters" you've lost your right to be taken seriously.

You (and other pro-Israel voices) are here conflating anyone who expresses sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians or criticizes the Israeli response with people who praise Hamas. There is no necessary overlap between these two positions.

I am not on twitter for obvious reasons, but I am a voracious consumer of journalism from across the political spectrum and I cannot recall hearing or reading any commenter or interviewee posit a pro-Hamas position since this all started. You are engaging a straw man.

[Disco King]

I don't know if I've heard anybody in the West come out and explicitly say "we support Hamas," but some of the left have said "Palestinians is rising" and "Palestinians have the right to defend themselves" curiously directly after that Hamas attacks. Which makes it sound like they believe Hamas' attacks are a legitimate expression of Palestine's right to defend itself.

But then many supporters of the Israeli government's actions lump all supporters of Palestinians with the Hamas apologists. And just like the Hamas apologists believe that the right to defend yourself entails the right to do it any way you see fit (even by murdering civilians), the apologists for the Israeli government believe that the right to defend yourself entails the right to do it any way you see fit (including collective punishment).

Of course, only their own sides have that right. The other side still has to play by the rules, or else they're awful.

[redbreegull]

one thought I had from this thread:

the idea that the Palestinians are "indigenous" to Israel/Palestine is incredibly contested. to say the history of cultural and political control there is convoluted would be an egregious understatement. The land has never stayed in one set of hands for more than a few centuries going back at least as far as written records.

[Disco King]

I've never really understood why the question of who is "indigenous" to the area matters. Like, who cares who lived there in 2,000, B.C. when in 1948, the people who lived there were violently expulsed and penned into an open-air prison? Human history in Africa, Asia, and Europe is extensive enough that any region on any of these continents is going to have been home to many different peoples at different times, and the question of "what groups are indigenous?" isn't going to be as simple or meaningful as it is for lands that humans only started inhabiting more recently (like the Americas).

But I don't see how we get from the fact that "Palestinians can't claim to be the exclusive indigenous people of that area" to "therefore, the Nakba was fine" (not saying that you or anyone in this thread is making this argument, but there are people out there who make it).

[redbreegull]

I agree. Most of the Palestinian population was expelled in 1948, and that is obviously immoral. I've just seen a lot of sentiments to the end of Israel is colonial/settler/european imperialist etc, and that is true, but the Palestinians are not indigenous in the sense of native americans or indigenous australians. I think a lot if it comes from trying to press the american framework of civil rights onto a completely different situation

[ilikeplanets]

Genuinely curious what your best idea for a safe and secure Jewish state would be

[ilikeplanets]

If I hear a good one I'll write my Congressman

[smashingjj]

take Belgium perhaps

[smashingjj]

I hereby give you the country of Belgium. Do whatever you like with it, as long as you won't Bexit. Bram will understand I'm sure.

[smashingjj]

proposed new name: Bethlegium

[MyOneAndOnly]

Originally Posted by redbreegull

I agree. Most of the Palestinian population was expelled in 1948, and that is obviously immoral. I've just seen a lot of sentiments to the end of Israel is colonial/settler/european imperialist etc, and that is true, but the Palestinians are not indigenous in the sense of native americans or indigenous australians. I think a lot if it comes from trying to press the american framework of civil rights onto a completely different situation

taking people's land is awful. It's wrong. But it's not genocide.

But I think it's absurd to call Jews "colonizers," cause the Jewish people had a State there 2000+ years ago. And jews have always lived in that region, and in Jerusalem. They were there a 1000 years before Islam was created. They've always been there. "Colonizer" is a slur, that also means "you don't belong here!"

It's also an attempt to equate Jews with racist genocidal regimes like Nazi Germany, 16th century Spain, 19th century Belgium, etc etc. Over the last two weeks i've heard countless people say as well that jews are committing Genocide. This is not genocide. The military may be doing terrible things. But Israel does not have a program in place to eradicate all Palestinians on earth.

Hamas and many other groups in the region DO have a formal publicly stated goal of destroying Israel. They do want to obliterate and expel every Jew from the middle east. THAT would be genocide.

[MyOneAndOnly]

Originally Posted by smashingjj

take Belgium perhaps

Belgium is not a country. It's a boarder solution for the armpit of Europe.

[MyOneAndOnly]

I have ancestors from there.... they are called Germans.

[Cool As Ice Cream]

Originally Posted by smashingjj

take Belgium perhaps

HEEEEEEEYYYY
leave belgium alone
we're not even a real country

[MyOneAndOnly]

Also Likud is awful. And the majority of Jews in Israel in the diaspora don't approve of or support Likud's handling of Gaza, the West bank, internal Politics, etc.

Israelis have been in the streets all year trying to stop Likud and Netanyahu.

[MyOneAndOnly]

Originally Posted by Cool As Ice Cream

HEEEEEEEYYYY
leave belgium alone
we're not even a real country

The #1 spoken language in Belgium is ENGLISH! what does that tell you?

[MyOneAndOnly]

thread is now for discussion of how to solve the Belgium problem

[Cool As Ice Cream]

what is the belgian problem?

[MyOneAndOnly]

Belgium is the Belgian problem

[MyOneAndOnly]

Better fries and waffles in the Netherlands. Better chocolate in Switzerland. The beer is OK.

But the peeing statues are tops

[MyOneAndOnly]

I'm trying to change the topic here!

I'm also happy to slander Liechtenstein if anybody is up for it!

I like making jokes about Faroe Islands too. But it does make me feel kind of mean when I do. And most people who aren't Nordic don't even know what Faroe Islands is.

[MyOneAndOnly]

I would shit on the USA. But that's just so easy that it's not fun anymore.

[TuralyonW3]

smashingjj is correct about everything in this thread

Israel’s apartheid actions against Palestinians have been unconscionable.

Also read up on the whole “97% land offer” bullshit that Zionists love to tout:

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...e-problem.html

Also don’t ever let any asshole call you an antisemite for being anti Zionist. I’ve known plenty of Jews and specifically Israelis who don’t identify as such.

[ilikeplanets]

Originally Posted by TuralyonW3

Also don’t ever let any asshole call you an antisemite for being anti Zionist. I’ve known plenty of Jews and specifically Israelis who don’t identify as such.

It's never just "any asshole" speaking out against antisemitism spilling into being anti Zionist. It's a Jew or someone advocating for Jews.

It is possible to critique and protest against Israel's methodology and policies without being antisemitic, but to be completely anti Zionist, as in, there should be no Jewish state in the area historically, culturally, and geographically connected to the Jewish people, is not fully separate of antisemitism.

And this rhetoric villainizes the vast majority of Jews around the world who identify with Zionism or feel a connection or kinship with Israel (regardless of their individual views on Israeli policies).

Furthermore, without Israel, the Jews in that area will all be killed. An intentional genocide. And the Jews worldwide will not have any place to escape to when needed. You cannot separate Israel from the well-being of Jews.

[ilikeplanets]

I hate the hate, I hate the violence and the death and there is no good reason for this complexity, but it's true.

Like MOAO said earlier in this thread, it is possible to be the victim and the perpetrator simultaneously. That is true for all sides on this war. It's WAR.

But to insinuate that if only Israel didn't have to happen then everything would be fine, is antisemitic because that would leave the Jews in mortal danger. Neighboring countries don't even want to provide for or share land with Palestinians, who are Arab Muslims. What do you think will happen to Jews in the Middle East without Israel? What do you think will happen in the world after that?

[Plasticine Rap Star]

I think a marked increase in naked antisemitism is always a bad harbinger of things to come, not only for people who happen to be Jewish, and I think things could easily snowball in that direction (and already are in places).

I don’t know what to say about what’s happening now, though. It’s disgusting what’s happening in Gaza, as if Palestinian lives are worthless. It’s just such shit and I still can’t really say anything original or insightful about the whole thing.

[MyOneAndOnly]

I hate Netanyahu and Likud. They make everything worse. They promoted settlements which are a part of the right wing's plan to instigate unrest with Arabs in Israel. They destroy democratic institutions in Israel. They partner with Fascistic Christians in the United States for propaganda purposes. But at the same time. WTF are Jews supposed to do when they're being attacked?


I hear American TV pundits saying things like "stop bombing Gaza" But Gaza is bombing Israel. Gaza began the bombing There is not a country anywhere in the world that would put up with this shit. But for some reason Jews should?

a few thousand americans were killed by terrorists organized and funded by Saudi Arabia, and Americans started 2 wars in two countries that weren't Saudi Arabia, and half the world joined in and supported it.

A terrorist organization is bombing Israel right now, they're literally doing it on Israel's border. Everyone can see them doing it. And everyone is like "hey Israel don't fire back."

WTF

[TuralyonW3]

Originally Posted by TheAlter

Plenty of Jews and Israelis who don't identify as antisemites, wow checking you out Sherlock!

You have interpreted the exact opposite of my post. I obviously meant who don’t identity as zionists. And stop conflating that with antisemitism. Stop it. Do some reading below.

[TuralyonW3]

3700 dead kids now in Gaza from Israeli attacks, according to WaPo. UN calls of war crimes. Even Biden who sucks Netneyahus dick asks for humanitarian ceasefire. This after decades of apartheid actions. This is your glorious Zionist state lol. You can support support Jews around the world as human beings, one ethnicity among many who deserve equal rights, without defending the evil fucking political state of Israel that has zero to do with religious values and everything to do with being a conservative military state.

And why cite American militarism to defend Israel? Anyone with a brain knows American military actions have been mostly evil dumpster fires after WW2. And before WW2 we launched a two-century holocaust against Native Americans. America is built on blood and conquest.