Israel-Palestine Conflict Thread

[MyOneAndOnly]

Originally Posted by ilikeplanets

It won't end because it's about more than land

This

[MyOneAndOnly]

For Egypt, Jordan, Iran, etc. it's not really even about the Palestinians. They all hate the Palestinians. If they really saw Palestinians as "brothers" they'd let them into their countries, but they don't. Egypt keeps their boarder with Gaza shut. And people in the West Bank can't leave and go to Jordan, Lebanon, or Syria.

If they had their way, Israel wouldn't exist. And there would be no Jews in "Palestine" either. They use the Palestinians as cannon fodder to attack the Jews. Because what they really want is all the Jews gone or dead.

[ilikeplanets]

You're saying what I'm uncomfortable to say, but I need to be loud about it because apparently this is somehow up for debate

[ilikeplanets]

There are many nuanced and sympathetic aspects to the situation between Israel and Palestine, but that isn't one of them

[MyOneAndOnly]

Muslim states started attacking Jews literally as soon as the war ended and the UN started resettling Jews to Palestine. They tried invading in the 1940s!

Then they tried invading Israel again in 1967.. back when Gaza was part of Egypt. Egypt used Gaza to launch attacks against Israel. Which is why after Israel pushed Egypt back, Israel kept control of Gaza.

None of the surrounding nations is strong enough militarily to invade Israel again, especially with the USA putting our navy off the coast. Israel also has enough Nuclear weapons to turn every city in Iran or Jordan or Syria into dust.

So they arm extremists in Gaza and the West bank. And let them try to kill Jews.

[smashingjj]

Originally Posted by MyOneAndOnly

WTF do you want Israel to do?

I'll bite:

not occupy a country and treat the original inhabitants as less then human?

they give them two small pieces of land in what used to be their country, one has a fence around it and amounts to an open air prison where Israel is in control of the water and electricity and 50% of it inhabitants are children, the other one is a lot bigger but people still get kicked out of their houses on a daily basis and slowly entire villages are taken over by settlers and people need to be in line for Israeli checkpoints every day to go to their day jobs.

I'm aware conversations like these tend to go on forever, just like the actual situation. but we all know where modern day Israel started and it's not like it was an empty country for the diaspora to take over, like it actually did use to be promoted. it's now ruled by a corrupt ultra-right nationalist madman and the whole situation is not about to get any better because of it. if you give one part of your country's population a lot more rights and freedoms than the other and you suppress and bomb the other part, you're inevitably creating terrorism. and since the IDF is killing innocent Gazans indiscriminately and half of them are actual children, more terrorist attacks on innocent Israelis are inevitable in retaliation.

wtf do you want the Palestinians to do?

[ovary]

Originally Posted by MyOneAndOnly

That's ridiculous.

Fighting back against another military is not a genocide. Was the Allied bombing of Germany a genocide? Was bombing Japanese cities a genocide? How many Jews does Hamas have to murder before you think Israel is justified fighting back? 5000 dead jews? 10000 dead jews? All of the jews? Is that not a genocide under your definition?

Should they just allow thousands of rockets and bombs to launch from Gaza every day? And do nothing about it? While hundreds of Jews are kept as hostages? Gaza is riddled with Hamas's tunnels and operations posts. How do you suggest they stop Hamas from killing Israelis? Hamas wanted Israel out of Gaza, and 20 years ago they left. And things have only gotten worse.

WTF do you want Israel to do?

WWII bombings would indeed count as war crimes by modern definition. but it's a bad comparison because they were part of military conflicts between countries of relatively equal power. israel is immeasurably more wealthy and powerful, has cut off all food water and energy to its little internal colony, is bombing the shit out of it, ordered forced removal of people out of half of it, and is preparing a ground invasion. feels... genocide-ey. we'll see what happens i guess.

devastating gaza also is not going to serve israel's interests. you can't destroy terrorist groups like hamas. it'll just make it worse for israel. deescalation and diplomacy and a real two state solution is the only thing that will work but it's impossible. totally fucked situation.

[ilikeplanets]

Originally Posted by smashingjj

wtf do you want the Palestinians to do?

Take any of the multiple offers to split the land

[ilikeplanets]

Originally Posted by ovary

a real two state solution is the only thing that will work but it's impossible.

Not because Israel didn't try. Because it's about more than the land. But Israel did try.

[ilikeplanets]

You can't just look at the past 80 years of history for insight into this. And claims that Israel is attempting genocide is really beyond comment. Nobody in the area, and apparently much of the world, wants it to exist. Claiming Palestinians are the "original inhabitants" is telling.

[ilikeplanets]

Originally Posted by ovary

israel is immeasurably more wealthy and powerful, has cut off all food water and energy to its little internal colony, is bombing the shit out of it, ordered forced removal of people out of half of it, and is preparing a ground invasion. feels... genocide-ey. we'll see what happens i guess.

.

People are really believing this is a tale of bullying the "poor little internal colony"

I feel extremely uneasy and monstrously unhappy

[ilikeplanets]

And no, I do not hate Palestinians the way Palestinians hate Jews. I also wish there was a peaceful way to avoid fighting and loss of life. I'm sure it would be much easier if we didn't exist and didn't need a state of our own. But that won't be happening.

[smashingjj]

Originally Posted by ilikeplanets

You can't just look at the past 80 years of history for insight into this. And claims that Israel is attempting genocide is really beyond comment. Nobody in the area, and apparently much of the world, wants it to exist. Claiming Palestinians are the "original inhabitants" is telling.

they're not?

[smashingjj]

I never said I don't want Israel to exist, it would be nice if their regime wasn't so horribly oppressive and didn't feel they have to kill 20 Palestinians for every Israeli killed. at this point they're just breeding more inevitable hate and future terrorist attacks against innocent Israelis.

[smashingjj]

if you can stomach sitting through a couple seconds of the enormous douchebag who interviews him, Gabor Mate sums it up well.

[vixnix]

Thanks for the heads up to skip the first few minutes. Didn’t realise Gabor Mate had said anything about this conflict, thank you for sharing

[MyOneAndOnly]

Originally Posted by ovary

WWII bombings would indeed count as war crimes by modern definition. but it's a bad comparison because they were part of military conflicts between countries of relatively equal power. israel is immeasurably more wealthy and powerful, has cut off all food water and energy to its little internal colony, is bombing the shit out of it, ordered forced removal of people out of half of it, and is preparing a ground invasion. feels... genocide-ey. we'll see what happens i guess.

devastating gaza also is not going to serve israel's interests. you can't destroy terrorist groups like hamas. it'll just make it worse for israel. deescalation and diplomacy and a real two state solution is the only thing that will work but it's impossible. totally fucked situation.

But it's not genocide. Which was my point. The USA did not genocide Japan or Germany. For that matter, they didn't Genocide the Vietnamese, or Koreans either. Terrible pointless wars, yes. But not genocide.

Calling everything a genocide cheapens the meaning of the word, and it suggests Jews are doing to Muslims what the Reich did to Jews. Which is a lie. They aren't putting Muslims into ovens. They aren't trying to rid the world of Palestinians. Israel does not have as a founding principle "the destruction of Palestinians". It never has.

I don't agree with tactics and policies of Israel's current government. I think Likud is bad for Israel, and continues to make everything worse by continuing to enable militant zionists to steal more land, and inflame tensions with Palestinians.

[MyOneAndOnly]

Originally Posted by smashingjj

I'll bite:

not occupy a country and treat the original inhabitants as less then human?

they give them two small pieces of land in what used to be their country, one has a fence around it and amounts to an open air prison where Israel is in control of the water and electricity and 50% of it inhabitants are children, the other one is a lot bigger but people still get kicked out of their houses on a daily basis and slowly entire villages are taken over by settlers and people need to be in line for Israeli checkpoints every day to go to their day jobs.

wtf do you want the Palestinians to do?

Gaza was part of Egypt until 50 years ago. Israel didn't want it. They didn't colonize it. They did not create it. They don't want to occupy it. They don't want to bomb it. Or invade it. But since Jews began to resettle in Israel in the 40s, Egypt and other Muslim States have used Gaza and used Palestinians there to kill Jews and attack Israel.


Most Israelis don't like Likud. They've been protesting all summer against Likud in demonstrations that dwarf even the 2020 BLM marches in the USA. I suspect this will eventually topple Likud's government.


Palestinians are indeed mistreated and abused. But sometimes victims can also be perpetrators too.

[MyOneAndOnly]

I wish American Liberals had as much anger and blame for the people arming and supporting Hamas's death squads as they do for Hamas's victims.

[MyOneAndOnly]

When you call everything Genocide, nothing is genocide.

[smashingjj]

Originally Posted by MyOneAndOnly

Gaza was part of Egypt until 50 years ago. Israel didn't want it. They didn't colonize it. They did not create it. They don't want to occupy it. They don't want to bomb it. Or invade it. But since Jews began to resettle in Israel in the 40s, Egypt and other Muslim States have used Gaza and used Palestinians there to kill Jews and attack Israel.

Gaza used to be part of the Ottoman Empire for centuries and then the Brits took over. Between 1948 and 1967 Egypt...didn't quite occupy, but still ruled over it. Israel invaded in 1967 and they started building their beloved settlements until 2005, when they left again.

Originally Posted by MyOneAndOnly

Most Israelis don't like Likud. They've been protesting all summer against Likud in demonstrations that dwarf even the 2020 BLM marches in the USA. I suspect this will eventually topple Likud's government.


Palestinians are indeed mistreated and abused. But sometimes victims can also be perpetrators too.

Palestinians does not equal Hamas just like Israelis (or Jews, for that matter) does not equal Likud. People seem to have trouble with this simple fact and start equating one thing with another

[smashingjj]

Originally Posted by MyOneAndOnly

I wish American Liberals had as much anger and blame for the people arming and supporting Hamas's death squads as they do for Hamas's victims.

literally cheering for Hamas, this I don't understand. the line should be drawn at brutalizing civilians, whether it's Hamas or the IDF

[smashingjj]

Originally Posted by MyOneAndOnly

Palestinians are indeed mistreated and abused. But sometimes victims can also be perpetrators too.

yeah careful now. this is what I mean with equating one thing with another.

[ovary]

i will concede your points about the term "genocide," tho i am concerned about the actions israel is taking/about to take rising to that threshold. certainly they are already commiting war crimes. hamas is a terrorist organization; israel is a wealthy, influential, and leading state power in the international community. they should be held to a higher standard of conduct. two wrongs/war crimes do not make a right. as we seem to agree, perpetrating extreme violence in gaza will not help israel's situation, and while revenge is an understandable emotional motive, it is not a reasonable one that the US should support.

[MyOneAndOnly]

Originally Posted by smashingjj

literally cheering for Hamas, this I don't understand. the line should be drawn at brutalizing civilians, whether it's Hamas or the IDF

it's because they're antisemites. It's not hard to understand. They can't call Jews fascists, or use right wing slurs. So liberals say that Jews are "colonizers". Cause to liberals that the worst possible slur

[MyOneAndOnly]

Originally Posted by ovary

i will concede your points about the term "genocide," tho i am concerned about the actions israel is taking/about to take rising to that threshold. certainly they are already commiting war crimes. hamas is a terrorist organization; israel is a wealthy, influential, and leading state power in the international community. they should be held to a higher standard of conduct. two wrongs/war crimes do not make a right. as we seem to agree, perpetrating extreme violence in gaza will not help israel's situation, and while revenge is an understandable emotional motive, it is not a reasonable one that the US should support.

What are the war crimes? What should Israel do instead? Hamas fills the basement of an apartment building (which is full of civilians) with weapons, and launches rockets from the roof. How does Israel stop the rockets?

Hamas misfires a rocket and blows up a hospital, and white liberal in America is blaming Israel for it.

Saying "be nice to Palestinians" doesn't stop the thousands of explosives being launched every day by Hamas. It doesn't stop Iran from funding death squads.

[MyOneAndOnly]

Originally Posted by smashingjj

literally cheering for Hamas, this I don't understand. the line should be drawn at brutalizing civilians, whether it's Hamas or the IDF

Maybe when you listen to people who call Hamas "freedom fighters" you've lost your right to be taken seriously.

[MyOneAndOnly]

Originally Posted by smashingjj

I'll bite:



wtf do you want the Palestinians to do?

maybe start by stopping with the terrorism and murder

[smashingjj]

Originally Posted by MyOneAndOnly

maybe start by stopping with the terrorism and murder

what, the Palestinians, as a whole? as the evil murderous little subhumans they are?

do you realize you're doing the same thing as the antisemites you're condemning?

the Palestinians should stop the terrorism and the murder otherwise "the jews" are right in just bombing the refugee camps-gone-cities in Gaza. Let's see who can kill the most children. What else are they supposed to do?

[smashingjj]

the average age in Gaza is 18 because the circumstances are fucking dire. Israel made sure of that. Half of the Gazan population are children who have every right to freedom and a peaceful life, just as the Israeli citizens that were murdered by Hamas terrorists. Instead, they're being slaughtered by the thousands because "the Palestinians" are being equated to terrorists, like you just did.