can you cook?

[Trotskilicious]

the murderers of the sea

[Trotskilicious]

humans are a blight and we consume, do not resist. give in to the void.

soon this world will die by our hand and a new evolution will take place

it's the way of things

[Bread Regal]

you're being obtuse.

[Trotskilicious]

incredibly, my friend

i will not try to change your mind as long as i can eat my large burger which is my vice

[Trotskilicious]

or my millions of tacos

[Trotskilicious]

but seriously white people came up with ethics

just something to think about

[noyen]

i thought tribes did.

[Bread Regal]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

incredibly, my friend

i will not try to change your mind as long as i can eat my large burger which is my vice

that's not the argument i'm making here. you're in touch with your hedonism.

im just annoyed at people who think they're being wonderful animal guardians by giving them a nice pasture to live and graze on in spite of actually killing them for literally no reason other than straight up hedonism.

like noyen said, animals grieve. in fact, one of the worst thing you can do to a person is to kill someone they love. if you try to impart some notion of suffering on animals, you can't ignore this fact.

[Trotskilicious]

no it was free range and the farmer played simon and garfunkel for him. it was a good life. and now he's in my belly.

[Bread Regal]

i avoided using the word moral here because it usually has some divine connotation.

could you expand on why white people constructing the notion of ethics is relevant here.

[Trotskilicious]

Originally Posted by noyen

i thought tribes did.

the mmo?

[noyen]

i'm okay with killing certain things because i trained my own mind with the help of white people, no doubt, that my guilt and need for survival is worth their hurt and death. being in denial of what you're doing is one thing, embracing it is another. i mean, i've watched that movie "earthlings" hundreds of times and i've been hunting deer and slaughted cows, chickens, goats and sheep. it's a lot of work when you get bloody and have to look at an animal die whether it is painless, quick or not. compartmentalizing that eating wilbur is okay vs foie torture feeding is wrong is fooling yrself because it's all the same means to an end. torture sucks and we've all be brainwashed that that part is okay because they're going to die anyway, me included. i agree with the hippies at the same time. you should wholly embrace the industry of killing and torturing animals if you eat meat because.... SIZZLER BUFFET.

[vixnix]

If you're going to kill the animal anyway - not just for hedonistic reasons, but for nutrition, too - are you saying it isn't a more ethical decision to treat them in a way they enjoy, before killing them quickly and painlessly, rather than keeping them however is cheapest or most desirable to you, and then killing them without any regard to their suffering?

That seems like a strange and untenable line of argument.

[noyen]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

the mmo?

haha! but for real. little tribes created religions and mythology and tacos and thus ethics are born.

[noyen]

Originally Posted by vixnix

If you're going to kill the animal anyway - not just for hedonistic reasons, but for nutrition, too - are you saying it isn't a more ethical decision to treat them in a way they enjoy, before killing them quickly and painlessly, rather than keeping them however is cheapest or most desirable to you, and then killing them without any regard to their suffering?

That seems like a strange and untenable line of argument.

ethics.. ethics... look up at how magical that word is and the connotations behind it. ethic is a intangible thing made up. by tribes of white people.

that makes you feel better. can you not wrap your head around this. your niceness is selfishness. can you not see that one group of people justify doing things one way and another justifies it doing it another and another group of people dont give a fuck because it doesnt matter to them.

[Bread Regal]

if you're going to base your argument on the notion that animal products are nutritionally necessary, i'm living proof that you're an idiot.

[noyen]

and i just defended your "untenable" line of logic. surely that can't happen in your world.

[Bread Regal]

guys, it's been real, but i'm gonna drink the rest of my cough syrup, have a wank and hopefully never wake up.

[vixnix]

Originally Posted by Bread Regal

if you're going to base your argument on the notion that animal products are nutritionally necessary, i'm living proof that you're an idiot.

I didn't say they were nutritionally necessary - I was a vegan/vegetarian for 7 years in a row, so I know that. But you're an idiot if you think that humans are not evolved to consume animal flesh as a food source. Meat does nourish the human animal. That's why it smells good when it's cooking on an open fire, and tastes good when we're eating it.

How long have you been a vegetarian? And have you ever stayed on farms with animals reared for meat? Have you worked in butchery units?

I know what is involved in putting meat on my plate. It isn't nice. Neither is abortion. We're not nice animals. But we can make decisions about how to lessen our impact on others, and providing animals with pleasant lives, and killing them quickly and painlessly, before eating them, is a way to do that. I know the kind of animal I'm eating and whether or not I could kill it if I had to. I could. That's the nature of who I am - if it comes down to my children and me being nourished, I'll kill the beast and stick it on the fire, no worries.

[noyen]

well then fucking happy birthday to you and a big pat on the back.

[Bread Regal]

"nourished"

shut up.

[noyen]

she plays organ in church, you can't touch those ethics.

[vixnix]

I guess the point here, is don't delude yourself about what you are - none of us are nice. We all do things that are horrible. Raising animals to slaughter them for food, is horrible. But there can be greater and lesser amounts of horror.

I am being called out as an idiot for thinking that an animal kept like this before being slaughtered:

http://www.teara.govt.nz/files/p20080nsil.jpg
is better off than an animal kept like this, before being slaughtered:
http://www.lennial.com/wp-content/up...oie-gras-1.jpg

Yeah, maybe not, in some abstract, "I-grew-up-in-the-suburbs-and-have-never-hunted-or-gathered-my-own-meal-my food-decisions-are-things-like-do-I-buy-the-organic-lentils-or-the-ones-in-the-glass-jar-to-avoid-the-BPA" way, there is no difference.

But to me there is. I'm pretty sure...to the animals...there is a difference for them. We could stop slaughtering them altogether and survive - but we're not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to kid myself that I am capable of that, any more than a rat is, or a lion is, or a shark is. You guise all seem to have this very inflated idea about what humanity is whereby we are able to live independently of the evolutionary history that precedes our lives today.

[The exploding boy]

I don't think i could do true veganism but i'm gonna get as close to it as i can. More like vegetarian plus or something. I'm still trying to wrap my head around the idea of going dairy free. I don't think i can do that. I'd rather find a dairy producer i can be assured are ethical if thats even possible to know for sure. I think there's some hippie-run sites for these things.

I wish i didn't give a shit but i think at this point it's pretty much part of my mental problems, I think i have TOO much compassion for animals. More than i do for humans for sure. I mean i've reached the point where i avoid killing bugs around the house. My dad was raised on a farm where they slaughtered pigs and chickens so he now thinks i'm pretty much retarded. I was raised in the countryside, around farms, but not on one.

[Trotskilicious]

i just remembered that vixnix made a big deal about raising her retard kid as a vegan because he cried after seeing a lamb on the television or something

[Trotskilicious]

you guys remember that thread right

[Trotskilicious]

was that even six months ago

[vixnix]

After seven years switching between vegetarianism and veganism, I began craving animal flesh - and when I became pregnant for the first time it got even worse so in the end I just stopped fighting it.

I would always eat shellfish and fish, maybe a couple of times a year - I would get these huge urges and would give in and eat a lot of mussels or some sashimi or something. The reward signals in my brain were crazy, it was like crack.

The same when I finally gave in and began eating chicken - I was living in a house with vegan flatmates at the time, so I would buy cooked chicken drumsticks from the deli on the way home from uni, and eat them hunched over on a park bench in the botanic gardens, then smoke a cigarette and chew some gum to disguise the smell of decaying animal flesh on me. But I remember feeling a surge of good feelings, sitting on that park bench. Eating those chicken drumsticks made me feel like I was walking on air.

I was all systems go as a 16 year old vegan - and 23 when I finally gave up. My health improved pretty dramatically. You gotta look at the sort of breeding you have before you go vegan...this:
http://www.iisd.ca/uncsd/prepp/image...hoto_11-tn.jpg
and veganism don't necessarily jive, that much.

When you remove large quantities of saturated fat and animal protein from the Samoan diet, and replace it with plant fats and carbohydrates...you commonly see this:

http://travelcrawler.co.uk/wp-conten...31_306x464.jpg

Samoans are big eaters and need plenty of plant fibre, animal protein, and animal fat in their diets to stop themselves from becoming overweight. Without the appropriate food and appropriate amount of rest triggering the right chemical reactions from the brain, the hormones that control their appetite and satiety become out of kilter and we will just keep eating until we throw up - watching what we eat is miserable and leads to obsession because unless we mimic the conditions we are adapted for, we feel the need to eat something else.

Trots he was never vegan - he was vegetarian. But the poor thing couldn't make it work - when we were eating meat he would "just try it" and then couldn't stop himself from eating it once he started...I could see he was starting to feel ashamed of himself. So I told him it sad that we kill the animals for meat, but they are given a good life. Which is true - we buy free range chicken/eggs/pork, and grass feed lamb/beef. Still not sold on beef. It's expensive environmentally to rear it, and no better in terms of nutrition, than sheep or pork. And cows and pigs are significantly smarter than sheep. You can't send a dog to round them up, for instance.

[Trotskilicious]

beef is so good i think i will have some now

[vixnix]

I think it's popular because it's a very tasty meat in the sense that the musky animal taste:delicious fatty & protein-y taste ratio is ideally balanced for the human palate.

Like, goat tastes like goats...sheep tastes like sheep...but beef and chicken are both very mild tasting. So they're very popular with children, and Americans.