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Old 08-12-2020, 11:52 AM   #631
Squish Squash
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Trump winning will kill hundreds of thousands of people most likely. Not worth it for an AOC dream. Still wouldn't be worth it if COVID never happened, but now it's definitely not
By the same token, I do not trust Biden/Harris not to kill thousands in new conflicts overseas. Trump is undoubtedly a war criminal, but he has not been as bad as the previous administration in terms of bloodshed in foreign nations. Trump is an absolutely terrible human being, and his handling of COVID has been laughable, but when you have people like Chuck Schumer demanding we open up the economy, do you really think the Democrats will be THAT much different? Sure they’ll say wear a mask, but how many people who don’t wear a mask already will change their minds? There is a reason Trump used to be a Democrat; both parties are extremely corporate. Republicans are obviously worse, but I will not support either unless the candidate has a progressive platform. My parents are harassing me about this already, using the same arguments you guys are using. My mind is made up. I will consider Biden if he supports progressive policies, otherwise I am voting Green. Considering his track record, I’m not holding my breath.

 
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Old 08-12-2020, 12:04 PM   #632
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The Innocent-Man Test

On June 6, 1998, police were summoned to a bar in the San Fernando Valley where a fight had broken out. The Los Angeles Police Department officers Michael Rex and Thomas Townsend rolled into the parking lot and turned on their floodlights. They later testified that they saw Daniel Larsen, then 30, pull a long, thin object from his waistband and throw it under a vehicle; that they ordered everyone in the parking lot to get down on their knees; that they retrieved a double-edged knife with a weighted handle from beneath a car; and that they arrested Larsen, who was convicted of felony possession of a deadly weapon during a jury trial, despite protesting his innocence. Larsen had two prior felonies and was sentenced to 28 years to life.

Larsen continued to proclaim his innocence, but got nowhere for years, until he became one of the few inmates chosen by the Innocence Project to benefit from its limited resources.

The petition assembled on his behalf was formidable. At trial, Larsen’s defense attorney called no witnesses, having failed to do the leg work of identifying any who would help his case. But as it turned out, a man named James McNutt, a retired Army sergeant first class and former police chief, had been in the parking lot that night with his wife, Elinore, and both agreed to give sworn statements asserting that they saw a different man throw the object under the car, and that they specifically saw Larsen just standing there doing nothing.

The man that the couple saw is named William Hewitt. And he swore that’s what happened, too. So did Hewitt’s girlfriend, who said Hewitt sold his motorcycle shortly after the incident to bail Larsen out of prison, because Hewitt felt guilty that another man was being punished for his actions. Not only did Larsen’s defense attorney fail to identify or call these witnesses; he also failed to request that the knife be examined for fingerprints and did not present a theory of third-party culpability. He was later disbarred for failing other clients.

There was, however, a procedural weakness in Larsen’s petition: He filed it in 2008, long after the one-year deadline for appeals. After missing that deadline, getting federal habeas relief is difficult and rare. One must show evidence of actual innocence.

In 2009, Magistrate Judge Suzanne H. Segal finally heard testimony from the multiple witnesses who proclaimed that the knife belonged to another man. She ruled that in light of the new evidence, Larsen’s case seemed to be among those “extraordinary cases where the petitioner asserts his innocence and establishes that the court cannot have confidence in the contrary finding of guilt.” She declared that “no reasonable juror would have found Petitioner guilty beyond a reasonable doubt” and that he “clearly received ineffective assistance of counsel,” but stopped short of declaring him to be innocent outright.

On June 14, 2010, Larsen was still in prison, but the state was ordered to either retry him within 90 days or to release him. Harris, who was elected attorney general that year, could have chosen to free the man who had already served more than a decade in prison for possessing a knife that almost certainly wasn’t his.

Under her leadership, the attorney general’s office instead filed an appeal attempting to block his release because he hadn’t filed his claim for relief in a timely manner. It sought to keep a man in prison on procedural grounds, despite strong evidence of innocence. As a result, Larsen needlessly spent two more years in prison, until the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that he had cleared the threshold for producing proof of innocence and should be released. Even then, Harris’s office continued to litigate the matter, arguing before a three-judge panel of the Ninth Circuit that “one reasonable juror could still vote to convict.” The argument failed. And Harris’s office finally conceded defeat.

Still, it did not quite relent.

According to the journalist Nick Martin, the freed inmate applied to get money from the California board that compensates the wrongly imprisoned. The going rate is $140 for every day of wrongful incarceration. “To be declared eligible for compensation, a person has to prove to the court that they deserve the money. And in order to secure that proof, one of the main requirements of the board is a recommendation from the attorney general’s office,” Martin wrote. “When Harris’ office filed their suggestion on Sept. 4, 2014 that the board should decline Larsen’s claim, despite him already proving his innocence in court, that essentially sealed his financial fate.” Martin reported last month that Larsen now lives in a small garage and relies on welfare payments.

Harris’s office didn’t merely fight to keep a man in prison after he’d demonstrated his innocence to the satisfaction of the Innocence Project, a judge, and an appeals court. After losing, it fought to keep the newly released man from being compensated for the decade that he spent wrongfully imprisoned.

Harris failed the innocent-man test.

More failed tests: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...record/596758/

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Old 08-12-2020, 12:39 PM   #633
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what's amazing to me is people's willfulness to repeat the exact same tactic that got Trump elected in the first place, shunning the opposite party's candidate & pushing for a miracle third-party win

this might be the first election i actually put money on just because of how sadly obvious the results already are
The last third-party candidate to create an appreciable spoiler effect was Ralph Nader in 2000. Clinton didn't lose because of the Greens.


Part of what got Trump elected last time was Clinton trying to get Republican votes by presenting herself as a common-sense, centrist candidate instead of rallying the left-liberal base. American politics are now way too polarized to make trying to capture the swing vote a sensible policy. People have picked their teams, so who wins is a matter of demographics and who can get out the vote better. Clinton didn't get Democratic voters off their asses to vote because they weren't enthusiastic about her corporate history and persona. Even if the actual platform was actually kinda progressive and pushed to the left by the bitter primary against Sanders.

And now we have another establishment Democrat candidate with a running-mate who started as a progressive, made a right turn to protect her political standing, and is now kinda trying to act progressive again. Let's see how many people believe her.

Still, the one factor that makes this different from 2016 is that people have seen what four years of Trump looks like. People are angry with his incompetence and corruption. Democratic voters might be angry enough to get off of their asses this time and vote against Trump, regardless of how enthusiastic they are about Biden/Harris.

We'll see. I'm not making any bets this time. Right now, Biden's position is much better than Clinton's was four years ago. Even though Clinton was favoured by the polls, her lead was within the margin of error, so Trump's victory wasn't really the indictment of polling science that the media claims it was. But literally anything can happen between now and November, and polls won't start being very predictive of the election until maybe late September at the earliest, I think.

 
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Old 08-12-2020, 01:30 PM   #634
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The Innocent-Man Test

On June 6, 1998, police were summoned to a bar in the San Fernando Valley where a fight had broken out. The Los Angeles Police Department officers Michael Rex and Thomas Townsend rolled into the parking lot and turned on their floodlights. They later testified that they saw Daniel Larsen, then 30, pull a long, thin object from his waistband and throw it under a vehicle; that they ordered everyone in the parking lot to get down on their knees; that they retrieved a double-edged knife with a weighted handle from beneath a car; and that they arrested Larsen, who was convicted of felony possession of a deadly weapon during a jury trial, despite protesting his innocence. Larsen had two prior felonies and was sentenced to 28 years to life.

Larsen continued to proclaim his innocence, but got nowhere for years, until he became one of the few inmates chosen by the Innocence Project to benefit from its limited resources.

The petition assembled on his behalf was formidable. At trial, Larsen’s defense attorney called no witnesses, having failed to do the leg work of identifying any who would help his case. But as it turned out, a man named James McNutt, a retired Army sergeant first class and former police chief, had been in the parking lot that night with his wife, Elinore, and both agreed to give sworn statements asserting that they saw a different man throw the object under the car, and that they specifically saw Larsen just standing there doing nothing.

The man that the couple saw is named William Hewitt. And he swore that’s what happened, too. So did Hewitt’s girlfriend, who said Hewitt sold his motorcycle shortly after the incident to bail Larsen out of prison, because Hewitt felt guilty that another man was being punished for his actions. Not only did Larsen’s defense attorney fail to identify or call these witnesses; he also failed to request that the knife be examined for fingerprints and did not present a theory of third-party culpability. He was later disbarred for failing other clients.

There was, however, a procedural weakness in Larsen’s petition: He filed it in 2008, long after the one-year deadline for appeals. After missing that deadline, getting federal habeas relief is difficult and rare. One must show evidence of actual innocence.

In 2009, Magistrate Judge Suzanne H. Segal finally heard testimony from the multiple witnesses who proclaimed that the knife belonged to another man. She ruled that in light of the new evidence, Larsen’s case seemed to be among those “extraordinary cases where the petitioner asserts his innocence and establishes that the court cannot have confidence in the contrary finding of guilt.” She declared that “no reasonable juror would have found Petitioner guilty beyond a reasonable doubt” and that he “clearly received ineffective assistance of counsel,” but stopped short of declaring him to be innocent outright.

On June 14, 2010, Larsen was still in prison, but the state was ordered to either retry him within 90 days or to release him. Harris, who was elected attorney general that year, could have chosen to free the man who had already served more than a decade in prison for possessing a knife that almost certainly wasn’t his.

Under her leadership, the attorney general’s office instead filed an appeal attempting to block his release because he hadn’t filed his claim for relief in a timely manner. It sought to keep a man in prison on procedural grounds, despite strong evidence of innocence. As a result, Larsen needlessly spent two more years in prison, until the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that he had cleared the threshold for producing proof of innocence and should be released. Even then, Harris’s office continued to litigate the matter, arguing before a three-judge panel of the Ninth Circuit that “one reasonable juror could still vote to convict.” The argument failed. And Harris’s office finally conceded defeat.

Still, it did not quite relent.

According to the journalist Nick Martin, the freed inmate applied to get money from the California board that compensates the wrongly imprisoned. The going rate is $140 for every day of wrongful incarceration. “To be declared eligible for compensation, a person has to prove to the court that they deserve the money. And in order to secure that proof, one of the main requirements of the board is a recommendation from the attorney general’s office,” Martin wrote. “When Harris’ office filed their suggestion on Sept. 4, 2014 that the board should decline Larsen’s claim, despite him already proving his innocence in court, that essentially sealed his financial fate.” Martin reported last month that Larsen now lives in a small garage and relies on welfare payments.

Harris’s office didn’t merely fight to keep a man in prison after he’d demonstrated his innocence to the satisfaction of the Innocence Project, a judge, and an appeals court. After losing, it fought to keep the newly released man from being compensated for the decade that he spent wrongfully imprisoned.

Harris failed the innocent-man test.

More failed tests: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...record/596758/
Jesus Christ. Absolutely disgusting. I can’t believe anyone would be sentenced to such a ridiculously long sentence for just having a knife too.

 
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Old 08-12-2020, 03:41 PM   #635
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not just having a knife.
also throwing it under a vehicle. very dangerous! i've seen it in the movies.

 
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Old 08-13-2020, 02:36 PM   #636
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By the same token, I do not trust Biden/Harris not to kill thousands in new conflicts overseas. Trump is undoubtedly a war criminal, but he has not been as bad as the previous administration in terms of bloodshed in foreign nations. Trump is an absolutely terrible human being, and his handling of COVID has been laughable, but when you have people like Chuck Schumer demanding we open up the economy, do you really think the Democrats will be THAT much different? Sure they’ll say wear a mask, but how many people who don’t wear a mask already will change their minds? There is a reason Trump used to be a Democrat; both parties are extremely corporate. Republicans are obviously worse, but I will not support either unless the candidate has a progressive platform. My parents are harassing me about this already, using the same arguments you guys are using. My mind is made up. I will consider Biden if he supports progressive policies, otherwise I am voting Green. Considering his track record, I’m not holding my breath.
Well...
Is it possible we could go to war? Sure.
Is it definitely more people will die from COVID under Trump vs Biden? Pretty definite.

You know what else will be assaulted, definitely, if Trump continues in president?
DACA
gay rights
women's choice
funding to public schools
the post office
BLM
legal and illegal immigrants
the fucking planet

what will be bolstered?
private schools/charter schools
racist policies
private prisons
punishment legally for anyone Trump likes, and himself
neo-nazis
confederate symbols
the israeli government
russia

add your own

Vote for whoever will let you sleep at night. But one party is clearly better than the other even if you don't like the ultimate candidates (and I don't either), and that matters if you belong to or love somebody from any type of minority group. Obviously Biden can't fix any of this but having a pro-science and pro-empathy government is an overall good that will guide any policy that comes from the top. That is a big deal.

 
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Old 08-13-2020, 02:40 PM   #637
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Jesus Christ. Absolutely disgusting. I can’t believe anyone would be sentenced to such a ridiculously long sentence for just having a knife too.
I did a paper on this shit, I found a guy who got life for stealing a $200 golf club

Private prisons were supposed to lose govt funding starting in 2017 but Trump canceled it https://www.americanprogress.org/iss...dministration/

That's just one example of why your view is misguided, Harris probably fucked dozens or hundreds of people in this direct way (and her policies more), but Trump fucked the entire plan of defunding, possibly for decades but at least for five years, on the Federal level. Which of course stopped any momentum it would have afforded progressive governors to do the same thing.

Last edited by reprise85 : 08-13-2020 at 02:47 PM.

 
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Old 08-13-2020, 02:52 PM   #638
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Not voting for Biden/Harris is nothing but an act of immature egoism, and if someone can’t do it because of their moral convictions, said person is either not very hip to how democracy works or is actually just more concerned with how their vote reflects on their internal identity versus how their vote really affects, helps, or harms other people.

If you care about reducing suffering, you’ll vote Biden. If you stay home, you might want start considering how much you actually want to shape a better tomorrow for disadvantaged people as opposed to how much you want to pat yourself on the back for being a morally rigid dumbshit

 
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Old 08-13-2020, 03:55 PM   #639
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Old 08-13-2020, 04:00 PM   #640
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If you stay home, you might want start considering how much you actually want to shape a better tomorrow for disadvantaged people as opposed to how much you want to pat yourself on the back for being a morally rigid dumbshit
...said the privileged and protected and well-off sexist cracker man from his white bubble

 
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Old 08-13-2020, 04:03 PM   #641
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What exactly could he say that would make you happy he is voting for things that will help minorities?

 
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Old 08-13-2020, 04:25 PM   #642
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she mad

 
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Old 08-13-2020, 04:25 PM   #643
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at everyone

 
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Old 08-13-2020, 04:28 PM   #644
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He isn't, though. Of course, having Trump in office is worse for poor and dark people, but Biden and Harris and redbreegull aren't going to help shit. Ryan probably has wet dreams about being seen as a person who "reduces the suffering" of non-whites.

None of the bad policies from Biden/Harris that exploit and dehumanize marginalized groups have impacted Ry-ry for a second. So, no duh, it's easy for him to not even just be a little discriminate and even easier to tell non-honkies they're being egoists for being critical of the subpar and suspiciously chosen (Biden, anyway) Democratic nominees. He's white and lives in a bubble of privilege, which makes it easy to not think about certain things or harm that may come to him. He thinks that privilege makes him morally superior somehow, so he just looks like tone-deaf asshole when he strokes his dick about it.

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Old 08-13-2020, 04:44 PM   #645
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Erica and Ry-ry (you do this often, dude), has anyone who isn't white told you the word 'minority' is offensive? On a practical level, the people you're referring to as 'minority' (non-whites, right?) are not the minority. It sounds like you're just calling them less than at this point. So you don't assume this is a complaint unique to this Mexican, here's some others saying the same thing:

http://blackyouthproject.com/why-the...s-problematic/

https://medium.com/@cara_harbstreet/...y-178eec37b35e

https://education-reimagined.org/a-m...us-minorities/

https://ssir.org/articles/entry/why_...ord_minorities

https://aldianews.com/articles/cultu...minority/60041

https://www.poynter.org/reporting-ed...rm-minorities/

https://slate.com/human-interest/201...ry-racism.html

Last edited by yo soy el mejor : 08-13-2020 at 04:55 PM.

 
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Old 08-13-2020, 04:52 PM   #646
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When we call Black and Brown people “minor” in the context of major problems, we subconsciously give permission to treat those problems with less energy (or no energy at all).
.

 
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Old 08-13-2020, 05:15 PM   #647
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can I post some links for you to read to learn about queer people and being a good ally? Cause it seems you need it

 
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Old 08-13-2020, 05:17 PM   #648
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you just want to be cheered on every time you type-up some cliche you got from your white feminist boards

 
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Old 08-13-2020, 05:26 PM   #649
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I take that as a no

 
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Old 08-13-2020, 05:30 PM   #650
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thinking you're a blowhard =/= not being an ally (god, another overused word to the point of meaninglessness)

 
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Old 08-13-2020, 05:45 PM   #651
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it's like you're channeling Omega Concern

 
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Old 08-13-2020, 06:24 PM   #652
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...said the privileged and protected and well-off sexist cracker man from his white bubble
hahahahahaha lmfao

 
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Old 08-13-2020, 06:44 PM   #653
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Erica and Ry-ry (you do this often, dude), has anyone who isn't white told you the word 'minority' is offensive?
Quote:
Originally Posted by yo soy el mejor View Post
dark people
.

 
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Old 08-13-2020, 06:44 PM   #654
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?

 
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Old 08-13-2020, 06:51 PM   #655
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It'd be such a shame if our political debate devolved into the shallowest possible exchange of ad hominem swipes, insufficiently addressing the meat (or pork) of any one position.

 
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Old 08-13-2020, 07:18 PM   #656
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I sufficiently addressed your dad's meat from a number of positions, iykwim.





 
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Old 08-13-2020, 07:47 PM   #657
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You guys are welcome to try and tell me why Trump is so much worse than Biden for the future of the nation. Consider that Trump winning again gives us a better chance of AOC in 2024 (let’s be honest she’s the only progressive with any chance) . . . Please stop shaming me for not voting for a political party I don’t identify with...I don’t shame you guys for not voting for parties you don’t identify with. It should tell you something that you are all attacking me for not falling in line and voting for a party that is nowhere close to my political beliefs.
Where you appear to diverge most from those that would shame you for your beliefs while you're asking them to try and dissuade you from your position — I believe — is where you appear to present Ocasio-Cortez as a sort of benchmark for the reasonable candidate. To bring them to your side, you would have to roughly map out her path to an Electoral College victory that would not directly depend upon shedding the political image that has evidently won you over.

As the discussion progresses, I imagine that you would likely also need to cover why Sanders was unable to win the nomination twice in a row while accepting that an argument resting entirely upon the idea of the DNC stacking the odds against him would still beg the question of why they might do that and how they were able to so easily. There is a decent chance you will also need to explain why incrementalism must necessarily result in an overall negative outcome.

Keen?

 
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Old 08-13-2020, 07:49 PM   #658
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Erica and Ry-ry (you do this often, dude), has anyone who isn't white told you the word 'minority' is offensive? On a practical level, the people you're referring to as 'minority' (non-whites, right?) are not the minority. It sounds like you're just calling them less than at this point. So you don't assume this is a complaint unique to this Mexican, here's some others saying the same thing:

http://blackyouthproject.com/why-the...s-problematic/

https://medium.com/@cara_harbstreet/...y-178eec37b35e

https://education-reimagined.org/a-m...us-minorities/

https://ssir.org/articles/entry/why_...ord_minorities

https://aldianews.com/articles/cultu...minority/60041

https://www.poynter.org/reporting-ed...rm-minorities/

https://slate.com/human-interest/201...ry-racism.html
Of course non-white people aren't the 'minority' as a whole. But I see now that it is offensive and I will stop, so thanks

 
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Old 08-13-2020, 07:55 PM   #659
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I don't want to be a preachy white person but I am white (though Jewish, like RBG), and grew up middle class (though I definitely lost that for a while), and faced a lot of trauma in my life but nothing related to my gender/race/etc (though I guess sexuality yes, but I'm so disconnected from that part of myself it doesn't register).
So I'm not sure how to not be a preachy white person as a white person who does care about marginalized people. Except be clear that I care about individuals as well as groups as a whole and that doesn't make me anything more than a normal person.

 
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Old 08-13-2020, 08:20 PM   #660
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What if we each register alternative usernames specifically assigned to hosting our political arguments?

Users will be forbidden from revealing any details as to their own identities, making it oddly difficult to stray from the path at our signature pace.

 
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