Beidh Trump fós ina uachtarán?

[redbreegull]

It's weird for me to think about being "pro Israel" or "anti Israel" or liking Israel or not because I'm in the position of having a meaningful connection but not being from there. I have Israeli friends, one of whom was displaced by rocket fire in the north and honestly I'm not sure if she's been able to return home since 10/7.

So I don't think about being "Zionist" or "anti Zionist" or anything like that, because I think about my friends who are just regular people, who did not choose where their parents, grandparents, and great grandparents decided to settle. I don't feel like I can say I think Israel has a "right" to exist, because no government has a "right" to exist, but I bristle at the sentiment of pushing the Jews out, even as "colonizers" (not what a colony is but that's a different issue) because I have to think about actual individual humans I know, who have done nothing wrong, most who have devoted significant portions of their lives to the cause of peace and Palestinian liberation. My interest before anyone's right to land or even peace of mind is to not kill civilians, any civilians. So that's my frame of mind

Having said that, Netanyahu is a war criminal and one of the most despicable humans alive. I don't believe killing tens of thousands of people in retaliation for a terrorist attack will make Israel safer. I don't think it's saving Jewish lives. I don't think bombing Iran is making Israel safer. I don't believe it's saving Jewish lives. I believe bombing Tehran has been Netanyahu's wet dream since the 90s, he has an entire generation of goose-stepping right wing Israelis behind him who have been foaming at the mouth for this every time they pull the lever for him over and over and over. Netanyahu survives because he has successfully messaged to the Israelis that they are a people under constant existential threat, and he's the only guy who will save them. It's just a fear game, pretty similar to what Bush did in the US after 9/11. But people are people, they keep falling for it (or the devil you don't know seems worse), and the dude stays in power because he perpetuates the conflict he's protecting everyone from. I don't see Netanyahu as any different from the Hamas leadership or the Ayatollahs, or Putin, or Trump. They're all just a bunch of violent pieces of shit who went and confused themselves with God

[redbreegull]

what I will say with confidence is that Israel's aggression has made Jews in the United States and other places less safe. I live in one of the most diverse, liberal bastions of the US, and we've had a fair number of local hate crimes, threats, and vandalism seemingly in response to Israel's shakedown in Gaza. And there was just the double murder of the Israeli staffers in DC a few weeks ago.

[redbreegull]

it also bears repeating that Iran had agreed to not build weapons, agreed to let UN inspectors corroborate they were not making weapons, and that was all fine, but now we're bombing them and murdering people because Donald Trump couldn't stand that a black guy solved the issue

just like the border bill. Our government amazingly came together to pen a bipartisan bill on immigration and border security, and the contents of the bill were very right wing as the Democrats basically caved in on the issue. But it was going to pass, we were going to have a broadly popular new border security bill. Donald Trump didn't like that such a bipartisan endeavor was going to pass in his election year. He didn't like that it would be perceived as a victory for Joe Biden. So he told the Republicans who mostly wrote the bill to sink it. So that his political enemy wouldn't get the win, so that the problem would continue and exacerbate so he can stand around and scream about how he's the only one who can fix it. It's just fucking amazing to me how these people so often are the architects behind the misery they say they are saving us from

[Elphenor]

I think it's a testament to how deep and historical the conflict is that people not even living in this region in the world are drawn into the antagonism

my step-grandfather is a progressive Jew, and it's his view that Israel is held to a standard that no other nation has ever been held to

I don't have a strong opinion on that, but I do think Americans should focus on the fascism here at home before thinking about a dispute that's literally biblical

[redbreegull]

eh it's not really biblical. the people fighting today have almost no connection or relation to the people fighting during the crusades or during antiquity, and their reasons for fighting are totally different as well. the whole narrative of they've been fighting forever isn't really any more true than that humans have been fighting over all arable land for over ten thousand years.

[Squish Squash]

edit; double post

[Squish Squash]

I’m Jewish and I hate being associated with that abhorrent country. Ethnostates are never a good idea.

[redbreegull]

good luck, I didn't want my Judaism associated with Israel to the point where I felt like I wasn't Jewish, then went to Israel and became obsessed and my Judaism wound up being more linked to Israel than it would have been by default

I've never even been bar mitzvahed and was raised secular so it's like the most Jewish thing about me

[redbreegull]

the thing about going to Israel is that if you are a normal thinking person capable of empathy, you will find that on a person-to-person level Israelis are about as normal as all other humans, and it becomes difficult to think of it as an "abhorrent country" versus an "abhorrent regime"

[redbreegull]

I mean if someone were like, "Iran is an abhorrent place that makes me feel guilty for being a Persian Muslim," I would feel sad for that person, but also sad for the people of Iran

I dunno guys I'm just thinking out loud now

[Squish Squash]

I don’t have anything against individual Israelis but I am extremely anti-ethnostate.

[redbreegull]

Originally Posted by Squish Squash

I don’t have anything against individual Israelis but I am extremely anti-ethnostate.

even Poland?

[Squish Squash]

Is Poland an ethnostate?

[redbreegull]

Squash Ima need your full thoughts on all of the following:

European microstates
British Virgin Islands
The Chinese special administrative regions
Marie Byrd Land
Khalistan
Kurdistan
Croatia (only option is nuke)

[Squish Squash]

I'm extremely ignorant on those areas I must admit, although I know a little about Kurdistan, I support the PKK. I was pretty ignorant on Israel too before I became a leftist, but it tends to get talked about a lot in my circles so I learned.

[redbreegull]

Originally Posted by Squish Squash

Is Poland an ethnostate?

no, I'm being stupid but it does mention the Catholic Church in its Constitution which is unusual for a liberal democracy and is sometimes mentioned with Israel for that reason

Israel is weird as an ethnostate as well though. Not that it matters because I know what you're saying and agree with the sentiment, but Israel grants citizenship to non-Jews. An ethnostate also requires that we agree that Jews are an ethnicity, and that the Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Mizrahi, Beta Israel etc. all constitute one ethnicity, and that's a whole other thing.

Similarly Israel has a stated and official relationship with Judaism, it has a Rabbinate with some power, and the Jews obviously occupy the place of privilege in most aspects of life, but it's not easy to label it a theocracy. It's a mostly secular state. It's got a lot of weird stuff going on.

[Squish Squash]

How did you come to know so much about other countries? Genuinely curious, sorry if that sounded condescending, not my intention.

[redbreegull]

I have a slightly above average proclivity for geography but mostly I'm just full of shit. I got a degree in polisci so it comes easy

[redbreegull]

lmfao see I don't even have a degree in polisci, I was a class short and would have had to stay two extra semesters to get the right class so I took the minor. So easy to bullshit, it's crazy. Oh liberal arts

almost anything I know on Israel specifically comes from living there though

[Squish Squash]

I see. Trump is apparently saying he got a ceasefire but Iran said he's full of shit.

[Cool As Ice Cream]

Originally Posted by redbreegull

Croatia (only option is nuke)

[smashingjj]

Originally Posted by Elphenor

I think it's a testament to how deep and historical the conflict is that people not even living in this region in the world are drawn into the antagonism

well with western governments, like mine and especially yours, having backed them forever with enormous amounts of money and weapons, it's not so strange to have an opinion on it. especially in the USA where so many people are allergic to paying taxes and what said taxes are then spent on, it shouldn't be so strange to focus on that situation.

Originally Posted by Elphenor

my step-grandfather is a progressive Jew, and it's his view that Israel is held to a standard that no other nation has ever been held to

you'd think that not massacring and starving tens of thousands of people, half of which children, shouldn't be such a high standard to uphold

Originally Posted by Elphenor

I don't have a strong opinion on that, but I do think Americans should focus on the fascism here at home before thinking about a dispute that's literally biblical

america first!

[topleybird]

Originally Posted by Ihaguitar

Iran is a rogue state. An ally of Putin. Not sure why so many are crying about US bombing nuclear facilities. I think it's mainly because they don't like Trump (I don't either) and don't like Israel

Honestly don't know what to say if you think anti-Israel sentiment is why so many people oppose illegally declaring war on a nation that was not threatening us in any way. (Congress needs to approve going to war, to be clear. Even Republican Congressfolk are pissed about this.)

Cuba is also, according to the US, a rogue state. The current list is Afghanistan, Cuba, Iran, Nicaragua, North Korea, Sudan, Syria, and Venezuela, if the info I'm finding is right. Any one of those countries could develop a nuclear weapon. It's not like anyone has to start from first principles at this point; everyone knows how. They just need to acquire enough uranium. Should we bomb Cuba just in case? North Korea seems pretty bad, should be bomb them?

[redbreegull]

...what about croatia

[topleybird]

I saw surprised not to see them on the list, but they're in a separate and higher "Nuke ASAP State" category, of which they are the only member

[Squish Squash]

Why do y'all hate Croatia so much

[redbreegull]

this morning, in a rare moment of lucidity, Donald Trump told reporters that Israel and Iran have been fighting so hard and so long that they "don't know what the fuck they're doing."

[Disco King]

It's also a refreshing change to see the United States deny that a country has stockpiles when it does, instead of the opposite. Getting reverse-Saddamed.

[MyOneAndOnly]

Originally Posted by redbreegull

eh it's not really biblical. the people fighting today have almost no connection or relation to the people fighting during the crusades or during antiquity, and their reasons for fighting are totally different as well. the whole narrative of they've been fighting forever isn't really any more true than that humans have been fighting over all arable land for over ten thousand years.

No. They've not been fighting forever. But the justification from the Israeli right wing for ethnic cleansing of Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank is biblical. Just listen to the "settlers". It's the justification for their violence. Or look at the Parties that are in Bibi's government: United Torah Judaism, Religious Zionist Party, and Otzma Yehudit, which is literally an Anti Arab hate group.

[Squish Squash]

They passed that awful bill of his. Hopefully the midterms will stop this somewhat.