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Old 12-14-2019, 12:32 AM   #3931
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i think this is where billy choose fame and money over caring for others. i mean look at how he treated darcy not too long ago.

 
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Old 12-14-2019, 01:39 AM   #3932
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lol which one of you guys did this

SP camp is PISSED


 
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Old 12-14-2019, 01:46 AM   #3933
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Old 12-14-2019, 09:48 AM   #3934
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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook View Post


i think this is where billy choose fame and money over caring for others. i mean look at how he treated darcy not too long ago.
In Billy's/the band's defense, it's not so simple to just stop a major tour, stop the machine etc. There's pressure from the label, pressure from all the people you'd be sending to the unemployment line etc. but also I don't really care.

 
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Old 12-14-2019, 10:58 AM   #3935
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To be fair, it's gotta suck being an artist and having people ask you about your 20-25 year old work all the time, especially considering all the new music he's put out.
Reznor loves talking and playing the old stuff

But not everybody is as cool as TRez

 
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Old 12-14-2019, 02:47 PM   #3936
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In Billy's/the band's defense, it's not so simple to just stop a major tour, stop the machine etc. There's pressure from the label, pressure from all the people you'd be sending to the unemployment line etc. but also I don't really care.
True, but that's exactly when he could've shown integrity

I've never heard the argument before about all the unemployed people but that's really interesting. Maybe somehow Corgan could've kept the tour going, but just done solo acoustic stuff a la this show --> http://www.splra.org/wiki/index.php?...Tsp2000-02-19B

big rock shows are more intense and more...inflammatory, if that makes any sense

 
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Old 12-14-2019, 03:01 PM   #3937
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they could have taken a brief break or maybe even done a couple of notably different shows immediately after Melvoin's death, maybe. but taking a year off of touring the biggest album of their career when they were essentially one of if not the biggest band in the world? y'all are just looking for things to criticize Willy Patrick for now

 
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Old 12-14-2019, 04:37 PM   #3938
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They already toured for half a year and pretty well hit...basically everywhere? North America, Pacific Islands, Australia, Europe

 
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Old 12-14-2019, 05:50 PM   #3939
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Well, with the kind of high they were on there's no way they were looking at things perfectly rationally, & even in those interviews immediately following Melvoin's death the attitude toward Jimmy was resentful, not sympathetic. So of course they weren't going to put their biggest tour ever on hold because of a heroin incident they felt was his fault

 
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Old 12-14-2019, 08:01 PM   #3940
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i think the bigger issue is that they fired him. dude needed help, not to be cut off. and we all know he was a major part of why they were such an awesome band. why not just make him go to rehab and rejoin once/if he had gotten clean?

 
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Old 12-14-2019, 10:08 PM   #3941
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I think they were sick of him at that point. Like he even went to rehab after the SD sessions [per Billy's confessions]. Who knows how long he stayed clean after that. I know from interviews, his dad died around the start of the MCIS tour, so that really fucked him up -- and obv he overdosed twice on that tour before the Melvoin incident

Even after all that he didn't totally quit until the middle of Zwan [2002 I think] when his first kid was born

 
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Old 12-15-2019, 08:58 AM   #3942
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they could have taken a brief break or maybe even done a couple of notably different shows immediately after Melvoin's death, maybe. but taking a year off of touring the biggest album of their career when they were essentially one of if not the biggest band in the world? y'all are just looking for things to criticize Willy Patrick for now
pfff who cares. They would have survived.

It's not like they didn't sell out arenas without him in the coming years.

 
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Old 12-15-2019, 09:03 AM   #3943
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In Billy's/the band's defense, it's not so simple to just stop a major tour, stop the machine etc. There's pressure from the label, pressure from all the people you'd be sending to the unemployment line etc. but also I don't really care.
What a load of shit. Just because one band doesn't tour doesn't mean loads of music industry people go unemployed. The label could definitely survive without SP touring for a year AND find paid work for their employees.

 
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Old 12-15-2019, 02:11 PM   #3944
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you seem oddly frustrated about a tour that happened over 2 decades ago

not quite frustrated enough that you haven't yet been able to get your hands on modern masterpiece Siddartha!

 
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Old 12-15-2019, 03:03 PM   #3945
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we're pumpkins fans. so we are interested in figuring out when exactly things took (whallah) a down turn.


but yeah shallowed be thy name, time to man up and deliver on the siddarthra promise. are you a man of your word?

 
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Old 12-15-2019, 03:20 PM   #3946
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downturn commercially: a door

artistically: breakup 2000

w a l l a h

 
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Old 12-15-2019, 03:21 PM   #3947
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as a part-time disciple of Lord Corgan it is my obligation to deter conversations from hypotheses of failure in the 90s... that type of talk is mere mythical heresy & nothing more

 
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Old 12-15-2019, 03:21 PM   #3948
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not to mention some of those shows w/ Walker were sick as fuck

 
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Old 12-15-2019, 03:22 PM   #3949
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(Your Rock Knees '97)

 
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Old 12-15-2019, 03:43 PM   #3950
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hmm yeah maybe its a little dumb to try to pinpoint the bald One's downfall on a single moment in tyme.

still tho, the last shows with Jimbo were def the peaking of the zenith. so i guess its just natural to assume that the disaster right after was what started the descent into mediocrity?

 
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Old 12-15-2019, 03:44 PM   #3951
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i mean matt walker or no matt walker, those silverfuck jamz bro were something else.

damn.

 
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Old 12-15-2019, 05:49 PM   #3952
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in all honesty, i think said descent began when Corgan arbitrarily turned his solo album into a Pumpkins album because it would essentially guarantee more sales. Of course that was never an explicitly stated motive, but from what we know now it's pretty obvious

Adore as a solo Billy album might have been a beautiful thing, even if fans weren't entirely into it they'd more likely than not still appreciate it as something outside of the Pumpkins. It's still of course a beautiful thing, but also one that kicked their career right in the balls & knocked them off the top spot even as a platinum record, making the way fully paved for Korn & co to jump on as the biggest rock bands in the world

 
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Old 12-15-2019, 05:52 PM   #3953
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They could have jumped back from it too but a relatively complex "band playing the band" broken concept record like Machina wasn't exactly the way back in

I say both of those things as someone who loves both albums & isn't necessarily pining for the same alternate reality some of you seem to be

 
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Old 12-15-2019, 07:44 PM   #3954
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From the interview just after their penultimate show, track 32, around 6:13

https://ia800303.us.archive.org/23/i...900_d3_t08.mp3

Interviewer: Is there something that you would have done differently?

Billy: The biggest mistake that we made was not keeping the line-up intact. We made some rash decisions, particularly firing Jimmy in the wake of what happened in New York. We got some really poor advice, we were way in over our heads at that moment, we were on MTV every two seconds, we were the number one alternative band in the world. It's impossible to explain to anybody what that feels like, but you feel like you're on top of this wave that's going a thousand miles an hour, and our management promoted the idea that you can't stop. If you stop, this wave will just keep going on without you. Which of course isn't true. We really should have just taken a break, we should have taken some time off, everyone should have gone to Fiji and chilled out.

 
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Old 12-15-2019, 07:44 PM   #3955
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in all honesty, i think said descent began when Corgan arbitrarily turned his solo album into a Pumpkins album because it would essentially guarantee more sales. Of course that was never an explicitly stated motive, but from what we know now it's pretty obvious
What do we know now?

 
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Old 12-15-2019, 07:54 PM   #3956
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but yeah shallowed be thy name, time to man up and deliver on the siddarthra promise. are you a man of your word?
No, it is not yet time. I stated that I will listen to and review one of the releases before the end of the year. That is what I shall do.

 
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Old 12-15-2019, 10:27 PM   #3957
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I don't care, without Jimmy, we got Adore and I love that album, so worth the boot.

 
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Old 12-15-2019, 11:19 PM   #3958
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Originally Posted by Mals Marola View Post
in all honesty, i think said descent began when Corgan arbitrarily turned his solo album into a Pumpkins album because it would essentially guarantee more sales. Of course that was never an explicitly stated motive, but from what we know now it's pretty obvious

Adore as a solo Billy album might have been a beautiful thing, even if fans weren't entirely into it they'd more likely than not still appreciate it as something outside of the Pumpkins. It's still of course a beautiful thing, but also one that kicked their career right in the balls & knocked them off the top spot even as a platinum record, making the way fully paved for Korn & co to jump on as the biggest rock bands in the world
Yep. Adore pretty much is a Corgan solo album in all but name. It actually would have been the perfect time for him to go solo. The Pumpkins name carried so much weight and expectation for music that was heavy and distorted. He had huge name recognition then culturally, more so than any time since, and I think the public would have been more open to a "Billy Corgan solo album" and they also may have been more open to the stylistic change.

 
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Old 12-16-2019, 02:05 AM   #3959
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That would be a lot better than this other alternate timeline I read on Netphoria a while ago, where Billy died in a plane crash just before the release of Adore, and it being hailed as the band's magnum opus.

 
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Old 12-16-2019, 04:10 AM   #3960
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i think you guys area little confused. nobody should give a fuck about the public or selling bazillions of albums. what sucks is that the music started to deteriorate and now here we are with kings of malta and whoop whoa woah etc.

 
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