When did the 2007 reunion fall apart for Billy?

[ilikeplanets]

Originally Posted by AveryLoren

This is actually the underrepresented issue with Billy. He wants to be adored by the Hollywood cool kid types, not the sad ugly depression guild that his music specifically speaks to.

This seems very true, although he's talked about despising the bro-type audience at arena tours. I think he just hates everyone, no one "gets it" enough to be the kind of fan he wants.

[VoxUpDoc]

It is insanely and disgustingly unprofessional for a performer to cut a gig short, or walk off stage as he did in the UK legs of his tours, because the crowd wasn’t big enough or into it enough for him.

Completely out of touch behaviour and disrespectful to the fans.

[AveryLoren]

Originally Posted by houseofglass11

2007 was way after numetal. That era lost relevance by 2001. Machina was his attempt at numetal.

Oh I agree, but Zeitgeist sounds nu-metal adjacent with the metallic riffing. That 2007 AOL performance and other live versions of songs 07/08 are straight up nu-metal versions of tracks.

[Rairun]

Originally Posted by Spaldz

I completely forgot about them cutting the Nottingham performance short by about an hour. Had to go back and listen to my recording of it to remind myself. I know Manchester show had alot of unsold seats

That was the exact moment when things turned for me. I was an exchange student in Nottingham, and I'd never seen the Pumpkins live because the last time they'd played in my country (1998), I was bit too young to travel 8 hours just to see them. I queued up for 10 hours just to see Billy in a foul mood, making bitter remarks about no one listening to American Gothic, and cutting the performance short. Jeff of all people was a more interesting performer to watch that day.

[New Art Rioter]

Was like a replay of Birmingham 7 years earlier just with fewer people. Nottingham had a pretty cursed vibe about it too.

I think the simple answer to the original question is "when the record didn't sell". The Shepherds Bush gig was so good, smallish crowd of die hard fans delighted to see the band back in some capacity. There was an "Under Your Spell" themed banner hung from a balcony!

[jimmy drevpile]

Originally Posted by Spaldz

I completely forgot about them cutting the Nottingham performance short by about an hour. Had to go back and listen to my recording of it to remind myself. I know Manchester show had alot of unsold seats

They were pretty great in Manchester. Think the top ring wasn't sold out - but the venue wasn't totally empty or anything as far as I recall? Show and set was a decent mix of old and new, though, it didn't have anywhere near as much energy as when they played the Apollo back in 2000... I did think though, when they hadn't sold out the joint, it didn't bode well for some of the other venues in the UK in smaller cities.... I remember seeing the tour went to shit a bit afterwards and felt I got pretty lucky picking that show.

[jimmy drevpile]

Originally Posted by New Art Rioter

Was like a replay of Birmingham 7 years earlier just with fewer people. Nottingham had a pretty cursed vibe about it too.

I think the simple answer to the original question is "when the record didn't sell". The Shepherds Bush gig was so good, smallish crowd of die hard fans delighted to see the band back in some capacity. There was an "Under Your Spell" themed banner hung from a balcony!

Shepherds bush was wicked cool

[VoxUpDoc]

The Leeds/ Reading festival show was superb, but looking back…

Why the fuck would you play GATGC, Superchrist and HMM at a comeback festival gig?
I get United States was on the record, but they could’ve squeezed half a dozen greatest hits into that time slot.

[New Art Rioter]

I had a great time at Reading but the general feeling was not great around the set for casual fans that weekend

[themadcaplaughs]

Originally Posted by Rairun

- Taking a very long time to confirm neither James or D'arcy (or even Melissa) were involved.

My last post aside, it was this more than anything. The weird non-answers they gave just set up hope for people that we'd see James and D'arcy involved in some capacity, even if just playing on a record and letting touring musicians tour it.

To be fair, I am sure there was a period when he was seeing if James and D'arcy were even interested. He mentioned on the podcast a while back that a direct invitation was made to James to meet in Arizona in 2005 to work together and he declined. I think D'arcy confirmed in the Buttcannon interview that Billy's people spoke to D'arcy's people, even if he did not reach out to he personally. You could make the counterargument, however, that it was absolutely insane of him to announce the band coming back when he obviously hadn't spoken to either James or D'arcy at that point.

Once he found out they weren't involved, it would have been just as easy as saying "we tried, it didn't work out, we wish them the best, and we look forward to the future" and I feel most people would have understood. At that point, most fans had accepted that D'arcy had retreated and was not coming back anytime soon and that James, although he managed to make it to the final show, was not in a good place with Billy when he left.

Someone on the o-board, years later, claimed that apparently Billy was fucking furious when James publicly announced he would not be re-joining, which just makes me laugh.

[jimmy drevpile]

Originally Posted by VoxUpDoc

The Leeds/ Reading festival show was superb, but looking back…

Why the fuck would you play GATGC, Superchrist and HMM at a comeback festival gig?
I get United States was on the record, but they could’ve squeezed half a dozen greatest hits into that time slot.

I went to the Leeds show as well. Enjoyed it massively. Loved United States. Drums were ridiculous.

[mojo]

Originally Posted by ilikeplanets

This seems very true, although he's talked about despising the bro-type audience at arena tours. I think he just hates everyone, no one "gets it" enough to be the kind of fan he wants.

He's said before he'd like Radiohead's significantly bigger global audience who he said were more patient/amenable to being challenged than SP's. He'd no doubt like their reviews, too.

[Joey Goldberg]

that shit isn't just drawn out of a hat

their fans react that way in direct correlation to, you know, the quality of the music

[ilikeplanets]

And the quality of the person

Does Radiohead like to spite and despise their own fans, too?

[Joey Goldberg]

i'm not sure what you mean, Bill's been nothing but a sweetheart

[topleybird]

Originally Posted by mojo

He's said before he'd like Radiohead's significantly bigger global audience who he said were more patient/amenable to being challenged than SP's

I think he's nailed it. Imagine how much better things would be for him if a significant percent of the SP diehard fanbase also liked Radiohead, and thus would, of course, automatically welcome Billy's challenging music with arms as wide open as they do for Thom's. There'd be no reason to enjoy one and not the other, for they are clearly equally good.

I see Radiohead fans embracing challenging music every day, but I, a Pumpkins fan, overheard a song I didn't recognize playing in a passing car once and wet myself from fear. And I know it happens to everyone here, too. Does anyone know a RH fan well enough to speak to them? To gain their wisdom?

[MyKeyZ]

Originally Posted by mojo

He's said before he'd like Radiohead's significantly bigger global audience who he said were more patient/amenable to being challenged than SP's. He'd no doubt like their reviews, too.

Atum doesn't challenge anyone, Billy. Challenging doesn't equate to crap.
I'd rather listen to Thom or Radiohead over anything Billy has done in the last 20+ year.

[Morlock]

The production challenges my ears. They get tired of the mix quickly, even of the tame synthpop stuff. And I listen to a lot of noise / degraded stuff.

Doesn't Billy have permanent hearing damage? Shouldn't this speak against him being so hands-on with production?

Hey, Billy, time to humble up, get a really good engineer and give them some responsibility. Perhaps Manny Marroquin, or someone else who works with Phoenix, who play with similar aesthetics much more successfully.

[eviltimeban]

How about Manny Chevrolet?

[Morlock]

What about Manny Calavera?

[killtrocity]

It fell apart when Zeitgeist came out and it sounded like ass.

A lot of those songs had potential. They're pretty decent live. But when you raise the vocals in the mix and brickwall the instrumentation, and then layer in weird Billy choirs on top of that, it's garbage. Roy Thomas Baker was a HORRIBLE choice. Billy is not Freddie Mercury, sorry. Billy's strength is instrumentation and melody, and emotion. His weird "political" (?) musing connect with absolutely no one. This is the guy who was down with Alex Jones around that time.

Bleeding the Orchid is probably the best example. Absolutely butchered in the studio.

United States has some absolutely sick shredding in some live shows, but on the album we get weird whale noises, which, again, are brickwalled and there's not really any point to any of it. It's like watching someone jack it.

Most of the songs, with the exception of perhaps Stellar and Ma Belle which are universally praised, are under-developed. Repetitive, don't really go anywhere, lacking complexity... (same problem as SP2-3-4-5-6-7).

Good shit like Gossamer and 99 Floors never had proper studio releases (though we all know they'd have been desecrated anyway).

tl;dr - the whole Zeitgeist thing was coined as the "return of rock" with Billy and Jimmy just jamming and shredding and riffing, but all of the riffs are lazy as shit. What is compelling is buried beneath Billy's vocals mastered as if he were Freddie Mercury, singing about God-knows-what but I can only assume are the horrible political musings of a washed-up rich person

[killtrocity]

Originally Posted by Forgotten Child

This demo is better than anything on the album the way it is

Somehow I hadn't even heard this but yeah, classic Billy putting his good shit in a storage unit and pretending it doesn't exist as if to vindictively make some weird point about fans and their idols

The nice thing about his demos is they haven't been chopped up into teeny tiny pieces and smeared around on the floor. Vocals down, some actual rawness to it all, something genuine and not sterile

[NovaFritz]

If memory serves, isn't RTB only producer on like 2 of the tracks? I remember this was hyped a lot, but I don't recall him actually being credited on many songs. Big Willy probably took over because he is the GOAT of production, as we all know.

Originally Posted by killtrocity

It fell apart when Zeitgeist came out and it sounded like ass.

A lot of those songs had potential. They're pretty decent live. But when you raise the vocals in the mix and brickwall the instrumentation, and then layer in weird Billy choirs on top of that, it's garbage. Roy Thomas Baker was a HORRIBLE choice. Billy is not Freddie Mercury, sorry. Billy's strength is instrumentation and melody, and emotion. His weird "political" (?) musing connect with absolutely no one. This is the guy who was down with Alex Jones around that time.

Bleeding the Orchid is probably the best example. Absolutely butchered in the studio.

United States has some absolutely sick shredding in some live shows, but on the album we get weird whale noises, which, again, are brickwalled and there's not really any point to any of it. It's like watching someone jack it.

Most of the songs, with the exception of perhaps Stellar and Ma Belle which are universally praised, are under-developed. Repetitive, don't really go anywhere, lacking complexity... (same problem as SP2-3-4-5-6-7).

Good shit like Gossamer and 99 Floors never had proper studio releases (though we all know they'd have been desecrated anyway).

tl;dr - the whole Zeitgeist thing was coined as the "return of rock" with Billy and Jimmy just jamming and shredding and riffing, but all of the riffs are lazy as shit. What is compelling is buried beneath Billy's vocals mastered as if he were Freddie Mercury, singing about God-knows-what but I can only assume are the horrible political musings of a washed-up rich person

[Morlock]

He only produced Starz, Bring the Light (which is the one track where the choir works) and Pomp and Circumstance.

[Butt Pope]

I was at the 2008 Washington DC DAR show and Billy gave us all shit for coming to the concert and wanting to hear good songs. I’ve never been to another show where the band was angry that I showed up.

[Butt Pope]

Imagine going to Springsteen and he comes out and he’s all like “you want to hear Glory Days? ayyyeee fuck you guys”

[ilikeplanets]

Seriously. I don't know who is sicker, him or us. Who started this antagonistic relationship, anyway? I wish I had the energy, time, and resources to chronicle the unfolding of it.

[Ram27]

The Rose March (acoustic)
BC: (making popping noises with his mouth?). Here, I’ll play Geek U.S.A.
Geek U.S.A. (tease - popping noises)
BC: How was that? It's good. (couple more noises), that’s the ending, (more noises). That’s how I wrote the song, (more noises), just jammed it like this. Nah, I like the sitting down, relax. Sit down, relax, it’s okay, we got time, we got all the time in the world. Really, relax, it’s okay, seriously, just relax, it’s good, it’s good. We all need to relax a little bit. It’s dry. Dry air, I guess. Got all the time in the world for you, all the time in the world. Once I’m properly hydrated, gonna move you. Now I was raised a Catholic, you know. Yeah, go Catholics. We’re comin’ back. Anyway, heh heh...once we sort out our problems in the Middle East, uh, heh heh heh heh, haha. Anyway, you know in church and - I don’t know, was anyone raised Catholic? There you go. You know in church, you know, you turn to the person, “Peace be with you,” you know? “Peace be with you.” You could turn to the person next to you, “Peace be with you.” If you’re standing, you could look at the person sitting down and say “Peace be with you,” and they could look up at you, “Peace with you, brother.” That’s right. That’s right, it’s a democracy. Somebody just yelled, “Play a song.” You know, that never occurred to me until just right now. Sometimes I get up here and I think, “What am I doing up here? Oh yeah, play a song.”
Black Diamond (tease - Jeff is doodling on the intro while Billy talks)
BC: My friend, it’s all about hydration. Is it like a presidential ball tonight, what’s the hurry? Let’s just relax. Relax over here, section A. Heh heh heh. Heh heh hahaha.
Jeff: (off mic) That's for Toby's birthday.
BC: We’d like to wish Toby, our sound man, a happy birthday. Happy birthday, Toby. (singing to tune of Black Diamond) Ooh-ooh, ooh-ooh, Toby. Ooh-ooh, ooh-ooh, Toby. (speaking) He’s out in the streets for a livin'. Not - actually, (laughing) not really. Anyway. Haha.
Today (abandoned after 7 or 8 notes)
BC: No no no no no no no no no no no, relax, relax, relax. You can’t change your mind now. You gotta go back to relaxing. You can’t leap to your feet in some sort of sentimental orgasm. Sit your ass back down and relax. We’re all relaxed, just relax.
Today
> Bullet with Butterfly Wings

christ