Netphoria Message Board


Go Back   Netphoria Message Board > Smashing Pumpkins Boards > Smashing Pumpkins/Billy Corgan Discussion
Register Netphoria's Amazon.com Link Members List Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-21-2022, 01:50 PM   #301
Squish Squash
Apocalyptic Poster
 
Squish Squash's Avatar
 
Location: I should kick you in the sides
Posts: 1,780
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Disco King View Post
Also, even if Wretzky had good taste that served to steer Corgan in the correct direction, it's not like she was present 24/7 and involved at every step of recording and track listing. I'm sure many decisions were made without her, especially as she began to check out more toward the end of the band's run. Doesn't really make sense to go, "if Wretzky's taste positively influenced the band's output, how come THIS song was released?"
I'm basing this off stuff Corgan himself said, not any gut feelings I might have about her influence.

 
Squish Squash is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2022, 02:05 PM   #302
run2pee
Minion of Satan
 
run2pee's Avatar
 
Location: SMART meetings from back bedroom at grandmas
Posts: 7,242
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by topleybird View Post
I was probably unclear; I don't think it's impossible to relate to the album if you're an adult, neurotypical or otherwise. I just think the "cheesiness" The 'Noid (how ironic! The 'Noid talking about cheesiness! Like the guy from the Domino's Pizza ads? Right? Is this thing on?) is talking about strikes me more as cheese or somewhat immature compared to how I felt at the time.

I suppose I don't know how to completely articulate it. An Ode to No One, after a teen breakup, felt like an appropriate amount of rage. I can't imagine feeling that angry about someone I love(d) now (not saying people my age don't or shouldn't, but it's not who I am any more), but I still love the song and can kind of go, like, "Ah, yeah, I remember what it was like to feel that way."
Interesting. For me ode to no one has always been a song about surviving abuse. For this reason i can still resonate strongly with not wanting to ever be the shine in my abusers spit, wanting to disconnect etc

 
run2pee is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2022, 02:13 PM   #303
Disco King
Minion of Satan
 
Disco King's Avatar
 
Location: Banned
Posts: 8,171
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squish Squash View Post
I'm basing this off stuff Corgan himself said, not any gut feelings I might have about her influence.
Yup, and I'm agreeing with you. Corgan himself has said that part of Wretzky's contribution to the band was having good taste, to the point where he would sometimes even just watch for her facial expressions when showing her a new tune just to know if he was into something or if it was lame.

Corgan has always liked stuff like Boston, the Scorpions, and Van Halen just as much as he likes Bauhaus, Pixies, Mercyful Fate, and Slowdive, and that mix of accessible mainstream rock and (what was at the time) underground artsy rock is what informed the unique sonic qualities that made SP both challenging but also more ambitious than some forgotten indie rock band. But I think Wretzky, being primarily into the artsier side of rock, tempered Corgan from veering too far into his arena rock tastes, and kept the band somewhat "cool."

My point was that, seeing as she wasn't involved in every musical decision the band made, it doesn't make sense for paranoid to use "then how come this song was released" as a counter-argument to the claim that Wretzky's taste had a positive influence.

 
Disco King is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2022, 02:23 PM   #304
Disco King
Minion of Satan
 
Disco King's Avatar
 
Location: Banned
Posts: 8,171
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by run2pee View Post
Interesting. For me ode to no one has always been a song about surviving abuse. For this reason i can still resonate strongly with not wanting to ever be the shine in my abusers spit, wanting to disconnect etc
For me, it was never a song about any particular thing, it's just a song that evokes the feelings of rage, resentment, and resistance in general. Toward a person, toward your circumstances, toward the world, whatever. I feel that songs are often more about certain sorts of feelings than a specific episode or topic, and this song captures the feeling of that kind of anger very well through its instrumentation and lyrics.

Similarly, I feel like "BWBW" captures the feeling of anger, but without the spiteful resistance. It's about impotent anger. Balling your hand into a fist, but daring not raise it and shake it. Futilely screaming to the heavens and hearing nothing back, and not feeling the slightest relief. The vocal lines are almost reminiscent of those of a prison work song with a call-and-response structure. The way the main progression is constantly cut short is like there's no hope of being freed from the cage, and all aspirations toward doing so are constantly thwarted.

"An Ode to No One" is a "fuck you, I won't do what you tell me" song, whereas "Bullet with Butterfly Wings" is a "fuck this but I gotta do what they tell me" song.

 
Disco King is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2022, 02:26 PM   #305
Butt Pope
Apocalyptic Poster
 
Posts: 1,932
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squish Squash View Post
White Zombie slapped how dare you
I agree. I mean the riff sounds like something White Zombie would throw away for not being good enough

 
Butt Pope is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2022, 02:33 PM   #306
paranoid
Minion of Satan
 
paranoid's Avatar
 
Location: up a tree
Posts: 6,034
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Disco King View Post
Remember when Corgan made the claim about people shitting on MCIS for having "some Elton John shit," and we got curious, wondering "who the fuck said that about MCIS," and we traced the claim to Corgan himself, when he claimed back in the '90s that the new album would have "some Elton John shit?"

Corgan's murderer was Corgan.
Nope. It was Gavin rossdale of bush.. I remember reading it in a guitar world in 1996.

 
paranoid is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2022, 02:38 PM   #307
paranoid
Minion of Satan
 
paranoid's Avatar
 
Location: up a tree
Posts: 6,034
Default

My overall point is that Darcy being present today wouldn’t make a difference. And I’m just trolling on the rest of it.. however I always got the vibe billy said those things about her as a way to dismiss her actual musical contributions to the band.. like “I did all the bass myself but Darcy told me if it sucked or not.” It’s him totally dismissing her importance to the band.

 
paranoid is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2022, 02:42 PM   #308
Squish Squash
Apocalyptic Poster
 
Squish Squash's Avatar
 
Location: I should kick you in the sides
Posts: 1,780
Default

Gavin Rossdale thinking he had the musical gravitas to talk shit about 90s SP is pretty funny.

 
Squish Squash is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2022, 02:42 PM   #309
run2pee
Minion of Satan
 
run2pee's Avatar
 
Location: SMART meetings from back bedroom at grandmas
Posts: 7,242
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Disco King View Post
"Cheesy" and "garbage" are two different things. Something can be cheesy and good.

People love Sam Raimi's films while acknowledging that they are full of cheese. They like his camp horror in the Evil Dead franchise, and his 2000s Spider-Man films are going to be some of the only superhero films anybody remembers well after we've forgotten about the hundreds of generic movies since then.

The Smiths are cheesy. But people who didn't grow up with their music are still wearing their t-shirts.

The problem with the new SP material isn't that it's cheesy. It's that it just doesn't sound good.

 
run2pee is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2022, 02:49 PM   #310
run2pee
Minion of Satan
 
run2pee's Avatar
 
Location: SMART meetings from back bedroom at grandmas
Posts: 7,242
Default

We do this every cycle, we ask ourselves how is it possible that this person who once inked the lavender skies is making music that is aggressively horrible

We will never have the answer. We can only accept what is. And that is that Billy Corgan makes music that sucks such total cock that it makes my grandmas dog want to kill herself when she hears it

 
run2pee is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2022, 03:15 PM   #311
ilikeplanets
Socialphobic
 
ilikeplanets's Avatar
 
Location: Ignore List
Posts: 14,868
Default

Upon another listen, maybe he was going for Zero vibes with this one? That screechy part?

 
ilikeplanets is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2022, 03:20 PM   #312
run2pee
Minion of Satan
 
run2pee's Avatar
 
Location: SMART meetings from back bedroom at grandmas
Posts: 7,242
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikeplanets View Post
Upon another listen, maybe he was going for Zero vibes with this one? That screechy part?
Those are just harmonics, a way of playing a note by muting the string. Can be used to fantastic effect in somethjng like zero, which has momentum and direction. Here, the harmonics seem thrown in as an afterthought…i heard that and thought: oh maybe we’ll get something more interesting here…then it was back to the boringest guitars of all time with someone’s emphesemic great aunt coughing/gasping all over it

 
run2pee is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2022, 03:23 PM   #313
TheAlter
Apocalyptic Poster
 
TheAlter's Avatar
 
Location: Purple house on N. Greenview Ave Chicago, the year is 1993
Posts: 1,255
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikeplanets View Post
Upon another listen, maybe he was going for Zero vibes with this one? That screechy part?
He was going for zero vibes and came through with flying colors.

 
TheAlter is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2022, 03:23 PM   #314
VoxUpDoc
Apocalyptic Poster
 
VoxUpDoc's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,756
Default

Genuinely, if Bill got a decent producer back in and re-recorded every track from Zeitgeist-onward with their production expertise and sang in his classic voice... aiming for a MCIS sound... a lot of this material would stand up - strange lovers aside. It's not that he lost his writing chops... it's that the production choices are often straight up bad.

It's why stripped back tracks like Cotillions stand up and sound most like classic era.

 
VoxUpDoc is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2022, 03:26 PM   #315
Squish Squash
Apocalyptic Poster
 
Squish Squash's Avatar
 
Location: I should kick you in the sides
Posts: 1,780
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by VoxUpDoc View Post
Genuinely, if Bill got a decent producer back in and re-recorded every track from Zeitgeist-onward with their production expertise and sang in his classic voice... aiming for a MCIS sound... a lot of this material would stand up - strange lovers aside. It's not that he lost his writing chops... it's that the production choices are often straight up bad.

It's why stripped back tracks like Cotillions stand up and sound most like classic era.
Disagree. Production wouldn’t make the material he wrote less boring. He simply doesn’t push himself anymore.

 
Squish Squash is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2022, 03:27 PM   #316
VoxUpDoc
Apocalyptic Poster
 
VoxUpDoc's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,756
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squish Squash View Post
Disagree. Production wouldn’t make the material he wrote less boring. He simply doesn’t push himself anymore.
If the current line-up ran through a live studio performance of MTAE it would be infinitely better than the existing record.

 
VoxUpDoc is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2022, 03:28 PM   #317
VoxUpDoc
Apocalyptic Poster
 
VoxUpDoc's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,756
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squish Squash View Post
Disagree. Production wouldn’t make the material he wrote less boring. He simply doesn’t push himself anymore.
Strongly disagree. There are melodies and hooks here that work. There are even attempts at emotional resonance. What fails them is the vox and production each time.

 
VoxUpDoc is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2022, 03:32 PM   #318
TheAlter
Apocalyptic Poster
 
TheAlter's Avatar
 
Location: Purple house on N. Greenview Ave Chicago, the year is 1993
Posts: 1,255
Default

Strongly strongly disagree disagree. Billy’s MCIS home demos are straight fire because of the outstanding quality of his songwriting at the time. Imagine Beguiled as acoustic demo…the song simply isn’t there.

 
TheAlter is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2022, 03:39 PM   #319
Butt Pope
Apocalyptic Poster
 
Posts: 1,932
Default

Wealthy musicians in their 40s and 50s lose their edge. News at 11

 
Butt Pope is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2022, 03:56 PM   #320
VoxUpDoc
Apocalyptic Poster
 
VoxUpDoc's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,756
Default

Imagine Pug as an acoustic demo... the song simply isn't there.

*Obv Pug is much better than Beguiled, but still...

 
VoxUpDoc is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2022, 03:57 PM   #321
ilikeplanets
Socialphobic
 
ilikeplanets's Avatar
 
Location: Ignore List
Posts: 14,868
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAlter View Post
He was going for zero vibes and came through with flying colors.
I never said he was successful. He has to bridge the gap from Zero to Shiny somehow

 
ilikeplanets is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2022, 04:01 PM   #322
ilikeplanets
Socialphobic
 
ilikeplanets's Avatar
 
Location: Ignore List
Posts: 14,868
Default

The verses need the most help, which I find to be a theme in everything post Zeitgeist. I would never listen to this if I wasn't invested in SP, and would be horribly embarrassed to put this song on for a friend.

 
ilikeplanets is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2022, 04:21 PM   #323
TheAlter
Apocalyptic Poster
 
TheAlter's Avatar
 
Location: Purple house on N. Greenview Ave Chicago, the year is 1993
Posts: 1,255
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by VoxUpDoc View Post
Imagine Pug as an acoustic demo... the song simply isn't there.

*Obv Pug is much better than Beguiled, but still...
Pug demo would be voice+piano no? That would be mega without a doubt.

But yeah you’re picking up an absolute masterpiece, unfair competition mang

 
TheAlter is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2022, 04:22 PM   #324
dustrocck
Demi-God
 
dustrocck's Avatar
 
Posts: 370
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squish Squash View Post
Gavin Rossdale thinking he had the musical gravitas to talk shit about 90s SP is pretty funny.
Didn't Creed fire their guitarist because he said on radio something Eddie Vedder only dreamed he could write songs as good as Scott Stapp

 
dustrocck is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2022, 04:30 PM   #325
TheAlter
Apocalyptic Poster
 
TheAlter's Avatar
 
Location: Purple house on N. Greenview Ave Chicago, the year is 1993
Posts: 1,255
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikeplanets View Post
I never said he was successful. He has to bridge the gap from Zero to Shiny somehow
He has to but we don't.

Here, have a listen to this absolute banger


 
TheAlter is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2022, 04:32 PM   #326
Squish Squash
Apocalyptic Poster
 
Squish Squash's Avatar
 
Location: I should kick you in the sides
Posts: 1,780
Default

I will always maintain that Zero is in the running for best song Billy ever wrote.

 
Squish Squash is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2022, 04:35 PM   #327
Joey Goldberg
Minion of Satan
 
Joey Goldberg's Avatar
 
Location: in the line for drinks (or is it just tickets to buy the drinks?)
Posts: 5,667
Default

why are so many of you constantly trying to narrow it down to one thing

it's not just the vocals

it's not just the production

it's not just missing D'arcy

it's a combination of all these things that make modern bald lords 2020s creation so magnificent

 
Joey Goldberg is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2022, 04:37 PM   #328
topleybird
Janis Jopleybird
 
topleybird's Avatar
 
Location: Let me see the booty hop. And now make the booty stop. Now drop, and do the booty wop.
Posts: 5,706
Angry

Folks, Gavin Rossdale's turn as the half-demon Balthazar in the film Constantine has generated so much continuous buzz — demand for another display of his talent has been so high for 17 straight years — that Warner Brothers has finally conceded and gotten a sequel underway. Where's the Spun sequel, folks? Where's Spun 2: The Legend of The Doctor's Gold? Huh? You want to keep talking trash about Gavin now?

 
topleybird is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2022, 04:40 PM   #329
run2pee
Minion of Satan
 
run2pee's Avatar
 
Location: SMART meetings from back bedroom at grandmas
Posts: 7,242
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey Goldberg View Post
why are so many of you constantly trying to narrow it down to one thing

it's not just the vocals

it's not just the production

it's not just missing D'arcy

it's a combination of all these things that make modern bald lords 2020s creation so magnificent
Also, who gives a shit

So many boring posts in this thread. Guess it’s nice to have a place for people to vent without fear of getting moderated or blocked or shunned from their communities etc

But ffs give me something to gander at ya dummies

 
run2pee is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2022, 04:41 PM   #330
run2pee
Minion of Satan
 
run2pee's Avatar
 
Location: SMART meetings from back bedroom at grandmas
Posts: 7,242
Default

At least kermits attempting some weak trolling, at least that’s something

 
run2pee is offline
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Google


Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
quick! amazon sales tax in CA kicks in soon. need to buy headphones wHATcOLOR General Chat Archive 44 09-18-2012 03:07 AM
Michael Jackson's History kicks off MCIS from British Airways Essential Albums list RopeyLopey Pumpkins Archive 12 08-10-2009 02:57 PM
the letting go kicks ass mistle Music Board Archive 0 01-09-2008 08:32 AM
Atheist bassist falls through stage, comes right back out and plays again FearFactory Music Board Archive 38 07-26-2006 05:21 AM
Styx - Come Sail Away MusicMan4 Music Board Archive 3 07-21-2006 09:04 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:23 AM.




Smashing Pumpkins, Alternative Music
& General Discussion Message Board and Forums
www.netphoria.org - Copyright © 1998-2022