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Old 03-08-2023, 02:24 PM   #31
redbreegull
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Biden is also on track to match or pass Trump in getting federal judges on the bench, which under Bush and then Trump became an existential threat to liberalism and the Democrats in this country as I'm sure you know. But again, it's not an exciting hot button issue so no need to give him credit for this incredible task that many believed no Democrat was capable of

 
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Old 03-08-2023, 02:29 PM   #32
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https://www.vox.com/21322478/joe-bid...indow-bidenism

here's one perspective which does a better job than I can at quantifying these claims (it's a few years old). it's not crazy nonsense though... Biden really does govern left of other modern POTUSes, at least in the way we use left and right contemporarily, so say we'll only go back to Kennedy or Eisenhower or whoever, but it's still basically true.

 
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Old 03-08-2023, 02:36 PM   #33
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I also feel like there is this unspoken belief that we shouldn't give leaders credit for moving left with our society, which makes no sense both in terms of how politics and human nature work. The Democrats in general are now left of Obama's governance, and Biden has just followed the buffalo

 
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Old 03-08-2023, 02:51 PM   #34
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all the ones that got assassinated

 
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Old 03-08-2023, 02:55 PM   #35
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Biden is also on track to match or pass Trump in getting federal judges on the bench, which under Bush and then Trump became an existential threat to liberalism and the Democrats in this country as I'm sure you know. But again, it's not an exciting hot button issue so no need to give him credit for this incredible task that many believed no Democrat was capable of
This is all well and good, but he just isn't my favorite

 
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Old 03-08-2023, 06:14 PM   #36
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ugh. biden.

 
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Old 03-08-2023, 08:55 PM   #37
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he smells good

 
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Old 03-08-2023, 08:55 PM   #38
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i kind of feel like the only way i can make sense of joe biden being able to like function daily as president of the united states despite his extreme age is adrenochrome

 
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Old 03-09-2023, 02:11 AM   #39
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This is all well and good, but he just isn't my favorite
Obama is my fav obviously

I feel like most presidents would be terrible to hang out with. Obama and Teddy Roosevelt would be interesting. And Lincoln

 
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Old 03-09-2023, 03:36 AM   #40
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Ifwhiteamericastoppedusingtheworldsocialistforoned ayit’sworldwouldfallapart

 
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Old 03-09-2023, 11:44 AM   #41
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I also feel like there is this unspoken belief that we shouldn't give leaders credit for moving left with our society, which makes no sense both in terms of how politics and human nature work. The Democrats in general are now left of Obama's governance, and Biden has just followed the buffalo
I guess it's the "following" part that's the sticking point for me. He won the primaries because he was the blandest, most moderate candidate, the one who seemed likeliest to win because he had broad appeal and moderate legislative ambitions. And I think at heart he's always gonna be a moderate guy. Like, student debt relief (means-tested, of course, and only a certain amount rather than all, of course). He didn't want to do that; his administration was fighting about it for months. Extending the student loan pause, fought about it. He was pressured to do both. In the sense that there's some leftist stuff happening these days and he is the president during that, sure, he's a leftist president. But he's not a leftist.

 
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Old 03-09-2023, 11:48 AM   #42
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I do 100% agree Obama seems like he'd be cool to hang out with. I saw a photo of him once in one of my favorite bookstores and I thought, "Hell yeah, I'd love to talk books with this guy. I'd love to push him toward some really fucked up media to add to his year's-best lists."

 
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Old 03-09-2023, 12:04 PM   #43
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I guess it's the "following" part that's the sticking point for me. He won the primaries because he was the blandest, most moderate candidate, the one who seemed likeliest to win because he had broad appeal and moderate legislative ambitions. And I think at heart he's always gonna be a moderate guy. Like, student debt relief (means-tested, of course, and only a certain amount rather than all, of course). He didn't want to do that; his administration was fighting about it for months. Extending the student loan pause, fought about it. He was pressured to do both. In the sense that there's some leftist stuff happening these days and he is the president during that, sure, he's a leftist president. But he's not a leftist.
I feel like maybe, just maybe, parts of the administration expect him to die in office

 
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Old 03-09-2023, 07:52 PM   #44
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i think i gotta go with jefferson teddy and fdr. come at me

 
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Old 03-09-2023, 11:14 PM   #45
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I would like to bring Jefferson into the future and watch him dissect my household appliances

 
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Old 03-09-2023, 11:14 PM   #46
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the guy would freak when he saw how common swivel chairs are

 
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Old 03-12-2023, 08:18 PM   #47
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He would probably wonder why you don’t have a negro doing your household chores such as baking, sweeping, etc.

 
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Old 03-12-2023, 09:00 PM   #48
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He actually wouldn't wonder, he wanted to free the slaves. The guy is like all the contradictions of the US in one person.

 
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Old 03-13-2023, 12:32 PM   #49
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He actually wouldn't wonder, he wanted to free the slaves. The guy is like all the contradictions of the US in one person.
Well, he said he did, sometimes. I'm not sure if the contradictions you're speaking of in his various expressed viewpoints and lack of any actual action, like freeing more than a handful of his own. So yeah, maybe he wouldn't "wonder" why you didn't have a Black servant, but he sure would have been alarmed to see a Black person owning the house across the street.

 
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Old 03-13-2023, 02:33 PM   #50
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Jefferson wrote the emancipation of the slaves into the first draft of the Declaration and removed it because of no-sign commitments from the Southern delegations in Congress. He also ended the slave trade while president.

He personally wanted to free his slaves later in life but his logic was the following: the library of Congress needs books, I should donate my library. Oh shit now I have no books. Now I'm sad. The only way I can get more books is to take out money against my property. Guess I can't sell my slaves.

you can't make this shit up.

 
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Old 03-13-2023, 03:19 PM   #51
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He sure did ban the international slave trade. And there wasn't a lot of objection at the time from anyone because the slave supply by that point, including his own, was primarily coming from existing slaves having kids. He also considered Blacks inherently inferior to white folks, and wanted freed slaves rounded up and shipped off to Africa or wherever it was convenient to dump them; the ideal America for him was 100% white. There's also, y'know, the raping.

I think it's clear we're both familiar with the guy and have just reached different conclusions about what he truly wanted and how badly he wanted it. Gotta admit I didn't get your swivel chair comment, so you may be far more familiar here. Did he invent them, or just like them, or, what's the the story there? Do you think he'd like Doritos? Like would a guy from the distant past just taste all the chemicals and fake shit in there, or would he get hooked on those delicious chips as easily as we do?

Can we agree he'd likely wonder where your non-race-specific servant was? I figure he'd get over the general future shock pretty quickly and just have a fuckin' blast seeing how tvs and shit work, but also assume you must be wealthy to have any of it.

 
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Old 03-13-2023, 03:22 PM   #52
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oy vey, ryan

 
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Old 03-13-2023, 08:28 PM   #53
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He sure did ban the international slave trade. And there wasn't a lot of objection at the time from anyone because the slave supply by that point, including his own, was primarily coming from existing slaves having kids. He also considered Blacks inherently inferior to white folks, and wanted freed slaves rounded up and shipped off to Africa or wherever it was convenient to dump them; the ideal America for him was 100% white. There's also, y'know, the raping.

I think it's clear we're both familiar with the guy and have just reached different conclusions about what he truly wanted and how badly he wanted it. Gotta admit I didn't get your swivel chair comment, so you may be far more familiar here. Did he invent them, or just like them, or, what's the the story there? Do you think he'd like Doritos? Like would a guy from the distant past just taste all the chemicals and fake shit in there, or would he get hooked on those delicious chips as easily as we do?

Can we agree he'd likely wonder where your non-race-specific servant was? I figure he'd get over the general future shock pretty quickly and just have a fuckin' blast seeing how tvs and shit work, but also assume you must be wealthy to have any of it.
I don't think we diverge on his moral failures at all, just your cynicism that his belief in emancipation was not at some level genuine. Remember this was not an overwhelmingly popular cause at the time, so all his personal writings on it probably were not appealing to some future envisioned moral majority. I don't think there's any disagreement here that he didn't do those things. I was just pointing out to anne frank in shades that seeing a free black person would not exactly have blown his mind.

 
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Old 03-13-2023, 08:49 PM   #54
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oh yes, he invented the swivel chair at Monticello for his office

 
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Old 03-14-2023, 09:58 AM   #55
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That's pretty cool actually; I didn't know that. Imagine inventing a new kind of chair. There doesn't seem to be a lot of room for innovation there, but by God he found a good one.

I think we do diverge on his moral failures, though. If I can overly simplify this, and thus not capture any real subtleties or layers, I think your position might boil down to "he was an abolitionist, but he owned slaves." And mine is "an abolitionist cannot own slaves." This is an "actions speak louder than words" situation for me. I believe he believed what he was saying, but I also believe the way he actually lived his life, the actions he took or chose not to take, make it irrelevant what he thought he believed.

If you're strongly pro-life until your teenage daughter gets in trouble and then you push her to get an abortion, you're no longer a pro-lifer no matter what beliefs you espouse afterwards. Abandoning a belief the moment it inconveniences you, imo, invalidates any claim you had to holding it in the first place.

 
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Old 03-14-2023, 12:45 PM   #56
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i think that is a great way to draw the distinction between your arguments.

i guess the reason i like jefferson is that his intellect among his peers and presidents is more or less unmatched. his writing is readable and incisive and really encapsulates all of the positives, negatives, and contradictions of the american project. and he was the originating representative of the anti-industrial strain of american political thought that i ascribe to. i'll add that his anti-industrialism and his abolitionism are tightly linked.

the slaver/rape thing is obviously a huge demerit. i think his continuing reliance on the industrial system despite his ethical objections to it is the central problem of anti-industrial politics. he was unable to resolve it, and anti-industrialists today remain unable to solve it.

keep in mind, most/all of the posters of this board are reliant on offshore slavery today for the production of the food we eat and the clothes we wear. it isn't race-based chattel slavery of the type Jefferson participated in, but it is slavery.

so, given his historical context, and my own complicity in similar economic arrangements today, i do not find jefferson's conduct to be so egregious as to dispel my admiration for his other achievements and merits. i understand if others feel otherwise and think that opinion is as valid as my own.

 
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Old 03-14-2023, 12:45 PM   #57
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the rocking chair is also an invention of the united states.

 
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Old 03-14-2023, 01:09 PM   #58
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That's pretty cool actually; I didn't know that. Imagine inventing a new kind of chair. There doesn't seem to be a lot of room for innovation there, but by God he found a good one.

I think we do diverge on his moral failures, though. If I can overly simplify this, and thus not capture any real subtleties or layers, I think your position might boil down to "he was an abolitionist, but he owned slaves." And mine is "an abolitionist cannot own slaves." This is an "actions speak louder than words" situation for me. I believe he believed what he was saying, but I also believe the way he actually lived his life, the actions he took or chose not to take, make it irrelevant what he thought he believed.

If you're strongly pro-life until your teenage daughter gets in trouble and then you push her to get an abortion, you're no longer a pro-lifer no matter what beliefs you espouse afterwards. Abandoning a belief the moment it inconveniences you, imo, invalidates any claim you had to holding it in the first place.
if we define abolitionist as one who cannot own slaves, then I agree with you. it is important to define terms of the discussion. I don't think of him as an abolitionist, but I do think Franklin was an abolitionist. I think Jefferson did probably believe in his convoluted morality that the slaves should, in a just world, be free. that's literally all I'm saying.

 
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Old 03-14-2023, 01:09 PM   #59
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the rocking chair is also an invention of the united states.
so is the electric chair

 
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Old 03-14-2023, 01:10 PM   #60
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we got chairs all up in this biatch

 
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