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Old 01-25-2023, 10:11 AM   #31
T&T
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Is Adore so beautiful though?


 
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Old 01-25-2023, 11:58 AM   #32
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What did he say about SD? I haven't really been following any of it.
Whoops, didn't see your comment earlier! Well:

During this podcast run, he's been saying that SD is over-polished and it makes sense why the "fans" that like this album are just regular, Church on Sunday idiots. There isn't a high concept to it, and it is devoid of any real emotion or art. He made this record while being pressured by Butch Vig to create a highly marketable "perfect" album, and he didn't find any emotional fulfillment out of making the album. So therefore anyone that does find any emotional merit to the album is actually a shallow person who only wants to "rawk."

In a nutshell. It's bullshit. SD is raw emotion, transformative, dark and hopeful. With mind-blowing instrumentation and melody. And yes, it rocks. He's just frustrated he can't reproduce it without Butch Vig. It still angers me to hear him, though.

 
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Old 01-25-2023, 02:37 PM   #33
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Very weird to hear him say this, given he fought tooth and nail against the "overproduced" criticism back in the day!

Lyrically I find SD to be exactly where it is in the discography: between Gish and MCIS. Gish is a good album and the lyrics seem like an afterthought. I feel SD is where Billy started finding his voice, but it hadn't fully matured yet. There are lots of little moments where the words join the music to express something singular and important, but there's also a lot of Gish-like filler. Like, I don't think all words need to make sense, but I feel that in MCIS even the ones that don't make sense often convey a mood that serves the song. SD still has a lot of bland lines that don't have much of a function other than fitting the melody, but then there are other lines that really cut through.

TLDR I don't think SD is their masterpiece, but it's an incredible album.

 
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Old 01-25-2023, 03:29 PM   #34
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SD is my favorite album, and to me it is musically perfect. Lyrics have always been secondary with SP's discography, in terms of my enjoyment of the songs. But I absolutely get what you mean about his lyrical development, and would posit that his improvement continues through Adore and peaks at Machina (some beautiful verbal imagery on that album).

MCIS isn't too far behind, but its experimentation and difference in style make it a little less than perfect in some places, which is still SO GREAT but SD is flawless. I didn't think that was a bad thing, but apparently I hate true music and creativity because I appreciate how incredible it sounds and the emotions that cause for me.

 
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Old 01-25-2023, 03:30 PM   #35
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I also think MCIS is their masterpiece (and I love it), but Siamese Dream is an album full of my favorite musical style and nothing else, so it's first for me.

 
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Old 01-25-2023, 03:37 PM   #36
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please cite some FILLER LINES found on SD

 
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Old 01-25-2023, 03:49 PM   #37
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Well, we've heard Billy's album songwriting and musicianship decline with each following album over the last 20 years, so he obviously has absolutely no clue what is a good album or good song anymore since his newer albums are low tier, forgettable cringefests. So he has to crap on the past to make himself feel better about the complete garbage he's been putting out today. It's pretty baffling how far Billy has fallen. His head and ego are so far up his own ass, he wouldn't know a decent song if it hit him in the face. It's almost like he knows his new music is nowhere near the level as his old music, so he has to say and do everything he can to make you hate his old music. In his brain, he thinks this is going to work and make people think he is a musical genius, not this hollowed out version of himself. No Billy, you're just making your fans hate you more. I'm telling you, when this all blows up and Billy fails once again with Atum, he will just say that he was talking as a character on his podcast. He really thinks his older albums are his best work. Then he will turn into a full on nostalgia act only playing his old hits and falling back on archive releases of when he was good in order to suck up every dollar he can because he needs those Gish and SD and MCIS fans because the bootlickers who think the sun shines out Billy's ass are not enough to keep his career going.

Last edited by MyKeyZ : 01-25-2023 at 03:58 PM.

 
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Old 01-25-2023, 04:39 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T&T View Post
please cite some FILLER LINES found on SD
Maybe "filler" is ungenerous, but take "faith lies in the ways of sin / i chased the charmed but i don't want them anymore". Don't get me wrong, Hummer is one of my favourite songs of all time, but a lot of lines are just... there. They aren't entirely meaningless, you can sit down and try to interpret them, but they are kind of obtuse and vague in a way that doesn't do it for me. Same deal with "And in their eyes, I was alive—a fool's disguise / Take me away from you". You get the gist of what he's saying, but it sounds a bit pedestrian - and if a few other lines didn't do a better job than that, the song wouldn't hit as hard. The music and the emotion in his singing are still carrying most of the weight.

Now get a throwaway line from MCIS: "To runaround kids in get-go cars / With Vaseline afterbirths and neon coughs". It's just as obtuse, but at the same time it feels a lot more concrete? He deals less in abstract concepts and more in images and sensations. It works better imho.

 
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Old 01-25-2023, 04:40 PM   #39
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my issue is i just cannot get myself to engage in caring about the golden era stuff anymore [although i did enjoy reading these posts and thinking about the songs meaningfully for the first time in a while]. it feels null and void knowing atum exists.

this never happened before, not from siddartha or cyr. but maybe it's just the straw that broke the camel's back. dunno.

 
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Old 01-25-2023, 05:04 PM   #40
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Like The Simpsons, there is now more bad Pumpkins than good.

 
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Old 01-25-2023, 05:16 PM   #41
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Rairun, nothing personal, but I could not disagree more about those examples you cited

 
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Old 01-27-2023, 06:35 PM   #42
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Old 01-27-2023, 07:10 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VoxUpDoc View Post
Like The Simpsons, there is now more bad Pumpkins than good.
ive never thought about comparing golden age pumpkins to golden age simpsons but i like it for a few reasons:

- there's a general timeframe that most fans agree upon, but when it started and ended varies pretty significantly from person to person
- simpsons and pumpkins in their prime were both biting, edgy, heartfelt and wildly popular
- as we all know, the pumpkins were on the simpsons, but kinda crazy that a lot of people could argue that moment was the relative peak for both the band and the show happening simultaneously.

 
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Old 01-27-2023, 08:14 PM   #44
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I think the vast majority of fans agrees everything past 2000 isn't essential pumpkins straight up.

 
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Old 01-27-2023, 08:50 PM   #45
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It's been bad for twice the amount of time it was good

 
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Old 01-27-2023, 10:22 PM   #46
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The Smashing Pumpkins ended with Machina. Period. End of story.
Everything after that has been Billy Corgan And The Billy Corgan Experience.

 
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Old Yesterday, 10:33 AM   #47
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I'll keep repeating the label until it's adopted.
gish to machina.... the VIRGIN ERA

currently we're in the face makeup era.

 
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Old Yesterday, 04:31 PM   #48
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Zeitgeist is a nice epilogue for me, though it's more an epilogue to the story of Bill & Jim's collaboration than the Smashing Pumpkins, obv

 
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Old Yesterday, 04:45 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T&T View Post
I'll keep repeating the label until it's adopted.
gish to machina.... the VIRGIN ERA

currently we're in the face makeup era.
The Virgin Era (Gish - Machina)
The ”It’s still good, it’s still good” Era (Zwan, TFE, Zeitgeist)
The Kirk Van Houten Era (Teargarden, Oash, MTAE)
The Face Paint Era (Shiny, Cyr, ATUM)

 
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Old Yesterday, 09:03 PM   #50
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Yeah I am far more forgiving toward newer SP than the vast majority of people here, and I have no qualms saying SP hasn't done anything essential since Machina. There is something so off about all the material to come out since then, but it's worthwhile if you're committed to Billy as an artist.

 
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Old Yesterday, 09:33 PM   #51
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I'm as committed to him as an artist as he is committed to his fans!

 
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Old Today, 05:59 AM   #52
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The last good full album for me was Oceania. Everything else has been the odd song here and there.

 
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Old Today, 06:35 AM   #53
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Still baffled by anyone liking Oceania.

 
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Old Today, 12:27 PM   #54
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does billy have the concerts of each extract which are in the live compilation of tafh deluxe?

 
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Old Today, 01:23 PM   #55
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yes

 
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Old Today, 03:06 PM   #56
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I wish Courtney deviled up some drama again because loving and or hating her has consistently made B0llz come up with the goods or at least some goods. She allegedly finished a memoir in 2022…

 
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Old Today, 03:27 PM   #57
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courtney and chris, the true forces behind golden era SP

 
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