What would have happened if...

[Ram27]

during SD, JC kept flaking out on the sessions and going on drug benders and doing so much coke he went blind

Corgan threatened to fire him if he didn't go to rehab

what if JC refused? would Corgan let him play/tour anyway? what would happen to the band without him going into the SD tour? what would JC himself do if not in the band anymore [and presumably much less stable financially]?

[T&T]

head bedead.

[reprise85]

yeah he prob would have died

[ilikeplanets]

No MCIS, I guess? So basically they'd be lucky to have even half of their fans

[brothahi4L]

Half? I guess netphorians and some sad machines are probably the only ones left.
Ram...remember what bill said: live in the Now..
It took some years to accept that bill cant write sd or mcis or adore songs anymore. He is more worried about wrestling, zuzus, selling his pope statues, stock synths and vibrato.

I am sure you'll get over it. There won't be any big comeback to form.

[Forgotten Child]

What if the sun refused to shine?
What if the clouds refused to rain?
What if the wind refused to blow?
What if the seas refused to wave?

[Shallowed]

what if billy was right about chem trails

[T&T]

what if billy is the shapeshifter?

[T&T]

I'm quick to believe in the alien abduction / went to live on an island with elvis theory...

There's NO WAY this person caliming to be billy corgan (bald and can't write songs)


is the same guy that wrote SD & MCIS


it's just impossible.

my theory is that he got switched at some point after the MCIS recording

maybe original billy is dead. od'd on some cold garage concrete and the lable organized the switch to keep the record sales going.

[T&T]

Original billy could write a double album in a month.


this fat ugly bag of shit can't even compile a reissue of a double album in over 10 years.

yeah, we all know... by 1999 the original billy was loooong gone. all that's left is a fraud. 1993 billy would hate what billy's become.

[topleybird]

I think what Ram is too afraid to directly ask is, without Jimmy to adulate, would he (Ram) now be living under a bridge or worse, or would he have turned to, like, ultramarathons and gotten a six-figure job at Goldman Sachs

What would Ram's life be like if Jimmy had disappeared long before he could get a chance to, y'know, become Ram

[ninsp]

I love how sad and pathetic your life must be that you had this thought, and bothered to post it about an alt rock band 25 years past their prime. Absolutely fascinating, tell me more.

[ninsp]

Originally Posted by T&T

I'm quick to believe in the alien abduction / went to live on an island with elvis theory...

There's NO WAY this person caliming to be billy corgan (bald and can't write songs)


is the same guy that wrote SD & MCIS


it's just impossible.

my theory is that he got switched at some point after the MCIS recording

maybe original billy is dead. od'd on some cold garage concrete and the lable organized the switch to keep the record sales going.

He also just looks a hell of a lot cooler. I don’t think he really understands his shtick post-shave is fucking awful

[TheAlter]

Hey kids! Let's play with crayons on my face.

[Joey Goldberg]

Originally Posted by T&T

yeah, we all know... by 1999 the original billy was loooong gone. all that's left is a fraud. 1993 billy would hate what billy's become.

this makes no sense

even if you don't like the Machinas, it was obviously still a Billy Corgan operation

most of the shit that's come out post-Zeitgeist, that's when we get into "who is this replacement alien and what happened to the SUPERSLUT"

[Shallowed]

what if billy did a pee pee in jimmys bum and then jimmy did a poo poo and they pressed the pee poo doo doo into vinyl and sold it with zuzus tea and a WPC hat

[AveryLoren]

Originally Posted by Joey Goldberg

this makes no sense

even if you don't like the Machinas, it was obviously still a Billy Corgan operation

most of the shit that's come out post-Zeitgeist, that's when we get into "who is this replacement alien and what happened to the SUPERSLUT"

Post Zeitgeist is where I feel he really fell off and started to be a completely different person. I think he just stopped churning out the hits, lost his band, all the people that he associated with that were actually visually cool and creative had dipped by then.

Here's a conspiracy theory take for you: Billy envisions the big SP comeback, he places an ad in the paper calling for the return of the band. Jimmy takes to early social media to proclaim that he has seen the ad and wants to be a part of it. Behind the scene BC and JC never lost touch but hatched this plan as a way to get the other members involved without asking directly. James nor D'arcy make public announcements.

They soldier on and write an album in Arizona.

BC and JC start to use together again leading to a fallout.

Fast forward to the comeback failing and BC starts to live with Kerry Brown.

Kerry Brown's hippie commune leads to BC spiraling down the hallucinogens rabbit hole and he burns up his brain. I mean something has to explain the puppets, the Mormons, the awkward teenage drummer, Teargarden, the use of circus synths, the verbrato or false pronunciation thing, the list goes on...

[ilikeplanets]

I do feel like TGBK and Oceania era Billy was more acid inspired than Gish and SD, but in the worst way. Like vegan hipster meets right wing lizard person acid instead of grunge meets new wave and distortion pedal acid.

[teh b0lly!!1]

Originally Posted by ilikeplanets

I do feel like TGBK and Oceania era Billy was more acid inspired than Gish and SD, but in the worst way. Like vegan hipster meets right wing lizard person acid instead of grunge meets new wave and distortion pedal acid.

Interesting take.

I never managed to listen to Oceania or TGBK in depth, so I couldn't say. But - out of all the OG records, I definitely always got the strongest psychedelic vibes from Machina. Gish, SD and MCIS have subtle-ish notes of psychedelia in them, but Machina seems like Corgan's full psychedelic meltdown record.

[T&T]

drugs killed billy's music brain.
I can get behind this idea.


but billy as a father... He actually looks like he's doing a decent job of loving his kids. That's not an acid brain dead person - its' genuinly wholesome imho. he seems healthier for it too. The wrasling is just lame, but I can forgive him for having some lame hobbies.

[ilikeplanets]

I don't even necessarily think Corgan was on drugs making TGBK and Oceania, but was attempting to capture the spirit of colorful, synth psychedelia. It came off hollow because he's in his 50s with 2 toddlers and a granola crunching, fashionista girl-wife. He seemed preoccupied with image instead of music, and wasn't working with anyone who brought creativity to the table.

It's good to love and care for your kids, that's also my priority in life. But he's in the position of having a foot in both worlds and having it scrutinized. I won't apologize for the bad music, though.

[Shallowed]

Gish has subtle-ish notes of psychedelia

[Shallowed]

[ilikeplanets]

If by subtle you mean overt, yeah

[ilikeplanets]

Suffer and Window Paine especially, but the whole album makes me feel like I'm standing in a hash den looking through beaded curtains

[slunken]

Originally Posted by Ram27

during SD, JC kept flaking out on the sessions and going on drug benders and doing so much coke he went blind

Corgan threatened to fire him if he didn't go to rehab

what if JC refused? would Corgan let him play/tour anyway? what would happen to the band without him going into the SD tour? what would JC himself do if not in the band anymore [and presumably much less stable financially]?

i think the answer you're looking for is "yes get strung out on drugs it's fine"

[brothahi4L]

After zeugeist bill suffered from panic attack, anxiety etc...he was really down on the ground.
When making oceania there was that video where he swallowed like 30 pills during an interview. Nobody would swallow 30 vitamin pills or whatever they were .......fact is that his decisions are still weird( musically etc.).. he is definitely crazy in many ways

[teh b0lly!!1]

Originally Posted by ilikeplanets

If by subtle you mean overt, yeah

haha

Probably not the best wording

I mean weed is considered a psychedelic too. I guess what I meant was that Gish is just dipping a toe in that realm, like a few kids smoking some joints behind the school. SP were never really a 'drug band' in that regard. But with Machina, it's really the full 'conversations with god' mania thing. A direct sequel to the '96 Rio encore freakout

[eviltimeban]

Originally Posted by ilikeplanets

Suffer and Window Paine especially, but the whole album makes me feel like I'm standing in a hash den looking through beaded curtains

That's absolutely the vibe I get. It's definitely a psychedelic album, like the way JA "Three Days" is psychedelic. It rocks, and it's heavy, but also psychedelic.

SD isn't psychedelic at all. It's a whole other thing. It transcends psychedelia.

Don't hear anything psychedelic about Machina tbh.

Funnily enough, the last sort of psychedelic track SP did was "Astral Planes".

[ilikeplanets]

Originally Posted by teh b0lly!!1

haha

Probably not the best wording

I mean weed is considered a psychedelic too. I guess what I meant was that Gish is just dipping a toe in that realm, like a few kids smoking some joints behind the school. SP were never really a 'drug band' in that regard. But with Machina, it's really the full 'conversations with god' mania thing. A direct sequel to the '96 Rio encore freakout

Lyrically, I see your point. Gish is fairly vague, simple, and youthful in its message. Machina is sprawling, with a full range of emotions and several overlapping themes that all have an air of cynicism and egotism. There's this huge focus on connectivity, both intra and inter personally, which places it firmly in that psychedelic space. Still, there's something about the guitars on a solid half of Gish tracks that occupies similar territory.

Maybe a streamlined way to explain it is that Gish seems like a hippie guitar driven, stare at the fractals flashing on the wall "good trip," while Machina seems like a "crap, I took too much" metallic, mental breakdown "bad trip" that still gleaned some relatable insight.

All that being said, I don't think SP ever really embraced the drug band image, but their experiences leaked in anyway.