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Old 06-04-2020, 01:49 PM   #1
Oklahoma Sexual
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Default "Ahead of its Time"

WPC has stated that Adore, Machina, thefutureembrace, and Zeitgeist were ahead of their time. He claims that's the main reason the albums did not sell particularly well. In other words, the fans were not ready for his message or take on music until much later; implying that he is somehow pulling people along to some greater place where he is a full time resident. Another reason could be that the albums are not as relatable as earlier works.

I don't know how he rationalize(s) TbK, Oceania, and Monuments. Perhaps not enough time has passed to clearly see how prescient they are.

What's funny to me is the only album I can sort of see that applying to is Adore. Adore still sounds like musty, stale bread to me and is overly depressing. It was my third favorite album back when it was released. But even today I can appreciate the electronic influences on songs like Appels + Oranjes and Pug. Not sure if this is so much related to being ahead of the times or the fact that Jimmy wasn't around.

But the other albums....? Especially Zeitgeist. Ironic to claim that an album that literally means "the spirit of the times" represents an enduring theme in society.

And Cotillions? What can he possibly say about strumming chords and lyrics that are so intellectually dense and disconnected that will be ahead of its time in 2030?

 
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Old 06-04-2020, 02:09 PM   #2
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everything Billy ever played could be said to be "behind the times" and as such will get less popular as time goes on

who care though

 
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Old 06-04-2020, 04:25 PM   #3
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You just don't get it

 
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Old 06-04-2020, 04:26 PM   #4
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All of you

 
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Old 06-04-2020, 04:26 PM   #5
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You. Just. Don't. Get. It.

 
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Old 06-04-2020, 04:27 PM   #6
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Old 06-04-2020, 04:27 PM   #7
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Old 06-04-2020, 04:28 PM   #8
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Old 06-04-2020, 04:29 PM   #9
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Old 06-04-2020, 04:31 PM   #10
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Old 06-04-2020, 04:31 PM   #11
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Old 06-04-2020, 04:32 PM   #12
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Old 06-04-2020, 04:34 PM   #13
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His logic presupposes that all his work is inherently high quality and that the audience is too stupid to "get it". Maybe the reason his post-MCIS work has failed to connect with an audience as big as the first three albums is that they think it's just not as good?

 
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Old 06-04-2020, 04:36 PM   #14
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Old 06-04-2020, 04:40 PM   #15
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Old 06-04-2020, 05:25 PM   #16
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the electronic elements of Adore sound very dated to me today. they sounded very dated very quickly. There was nothing 'out of time' about it then either. Billy just never had an ear for electronic music at all.

 
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Old 06-04-2020, 05:44 PM   #17
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tear sounds as fresh as your dad's gooch to me

 
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Old 06-04-2020, 06:40 PM   #18
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I don't being ahead of its time has ever really been their thing. Unique for sure, special for sure, but not really ahead of their time. To a certain extent it is true to say that the albums are easier to appreciate over time as you gradually get the patience to listen them a few times and better understand what they're trying to do. At the same time, while there's no doubt SP made some of greatest music ever and made an unbelievable amount of it, i don't think Billy's attempts to push the envelope after MCIS ever really have that "oh, i didn't get this at the time, but not now that the culture has caught up i understand" type of thing. Adore and Machina are cool but electronic music really hasn't taken any cues or inspiration from SP i don't think. At the end of the day SP is an awesome rock band who can make solid attempts at other genres

 
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Old 06-04-2020, 08:35 PM   #19
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Old 06-04-2020, 09:17 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenDogGlynis View Post
Adore and Machina are cool but electronic music really hasn't taken any cues or inspiration from SP i don't think. At the end of the day SP is an awesome rock band who can make solid attempts at other genres
Yeah, I don't see Adore as the Pumpkins trying to further evolve the genre of electronic movement so much as I see it as them trying to use electronic movement to further evolve The Smashing Pumpkins.

It wasn't "The Shape of Electronic to Come." It was "The Shape of SP to come." I don't think they thought that people who had been playing house or drum-and-bass music for years would listen to this one acoustic-goth album with electronic flourishes from a rock band and go, "damn, they changed the game!"

 
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Old 06-04-2020, 10:25 PM   #21
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Adore being classed as an "electronic album" is a pretty big fallacy in itself. it's maybe a quarter electronic. the rest is essentially an extension of Mellon Collie disc 2

 
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Old 06-04-2020, 10:28 PM   #22
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Billy's forte was guitars & I gotta at least give him credit for pushing the envelope a bit on that front. sure SD was heavily influenced by MBV but it's not just some straight rip of that sound, he did his own thing with it & created a pretty damn distinctive sound for that whole record. it's easy to call bullshit on stuff he says now but the claim that the recording of Gish heavily influenced what Vig did on Nevermind rings pretty true to me as well

MCIS I'd say was a pretty impressive push at the sheer scope of what a band could do. the band going more electronic seemed a little arbitrary but when they were actually doing it, they pulled it off pretty well considering Bill has seemingly little to no interest in that kind of music beyond later-period Pink Floyd & bands who used synths in the 80s post-punk scene

 
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Old 06-05-2020, 12:48 AM   #23
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Yeah, I didn't mean to suggest that Adore was an electronic album. I wanted to give the 'ol man some credit for incorporating electronic elements in a bold way for yes, Pumpkins music, not electronic music. In that regard, I thought it was ahead of its time because I still haven't heard anything quite like it. Ahead of its time...maybe.

I can't say that about any other album. As great as SD was and is, it wasn't ahead of its time. It was a new take on classic rock.

 
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Old 06-05-2020, 12:52 AM   #24
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da fuck? Gish was a new take on classic rock. Save for the occasional Cheap Trick reference I don't know how you could say that about SD at all

 
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Old 06-05-2020, 01:59 AM   #25
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Gish ripped off Jane's Addiction and Ted Nugent. Siamese Dream ripped off Rush and other classic rock motifs. Don't get me wrong, t's a great record. It's only ahead of its time sonically. Otherwise, it's derivative (in the best way possible).

 
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Old 06-05-2020, 02:11 AM   #26
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I always felt Adore could've existed a hundred years before it did. It has this archaic, vintage quality and the whole approach is very gothic and turn of the century.

Obviously the reason it is electronic sounding is because there was more drum programming because of No Jimmy. But to me it doesn't necessarily sound dated, but then again that might be because I'm so used to it.

 
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Old 06-05-2020, 05:08 AM   #27
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While Adore sounded futuristic to me when it came out, it literally wore its influences on its sleeve. 17 Seconds is all you really need! The Cure already done the whole solemn guitar, piano and a bit of electronics thing nearly 2 decades before. WPC had the courtesy to tell us about it, thank you. And it's not like 17 Seconds itself came out of nowhere either.

Some of the songwriting is more "dramatic" and "90s" but you could put Nightmare, For Martha etc on a mix tape with Extremes "More than words" or Poisons "Every rose" and they wouldn't seem out of place in terms of songwriting or production..

 
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Old 06-05-2020, 06:04 AM   #28
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Some of the songwriting is more "dramatic" and "90s" but you could put Nightmare, For Martha etc on a mix tape with Extremes "More than words" or Poisons "Every rose" and they wouldn't seem out of place in terms of songwriting or production..
Ah now come on! There's no way. Those songs are nothing alike, from production to arrangement to vocal delivery. Maybe something from the Gish-era would've been comparable. 1991 was still very much cock rock / hair metal time. I mean, just play the original version of "Alive" by Pearl Jam and then straight after it play "Wanted Dead or Alive" by Bon Jovi - THOSE sound like they could've been on the same album.

 
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Old 06-05-2020, 07:06 AM   #29
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Ah now come on! There's no way. Those songs are nothing alike, from production to arrangement to vocal delivery. Maybe something from the Gish-era would've been comparable. 1991 was still very much cock rock / hair metal time. I mean, just play the original version of "Alive" by Pearl Jam and then straight after it play "Wanted Dead or Alive" by Bon Jovi - THOSE sound like they could've been on the same album.
I think the epic ballad type songs on Adore aren't too different to what cock rock bands did where they'd dim the stage lights, the singer would perhaps sit at a piano, everyone would hold lighters in the air and the girlfriends would go "oh I like this one"..

Which really isn't all that dissimilar to Paul McCartney on stage, alone singing "Yesterday".

And this is the exact purpose those songs serve in SP sets. They play some rock songs, then dim the lights, piano comes out, WPC puts a silly hat on, the lighters come out

 
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Old 06-05-2020, 08:56 AM   #30
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I just want to know which lyrics people think are so prescient on Zeitgeist. It's all just shit 13 year old poetry and saying "sakes alive"

 
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