The Big Zwan Theory.

[VoxUpDoc]

fuzzyroes remembers poorly

[Funbags]

Originally Posted by AveryLoren

During the lead up to MSotS I had only heard the raw live stuff / acoustic songs and seen few pictures including the True Poets stuff with the deer. I had this mental picture of what Zwan would be like visually. When the music videos and the album art dropped it was like a death blow. It was all so jarring as they had zero visual chemistry together. It was always so cringy and awkward. Billy clearly had a thing for Paz as well which fueled it. Billy playing flowery bubblegum pop music with diezel amps and flying V guitars.

I love the imagery of MSOTS, but it's like "Why was this their first album lol".

Maybe he thought "This is the next Pumpkins album", because the production sounds strange like Machina, and it follows the Machina Mystery: SP breaks up and Billy forms a spiritual band to change the world.

Can Zwan be considered Pumpkins canon?

[AveryLoren]

It's all Billy to me.

[Mals Marola]

i can think of few sharper left turns Billy could've taken after Machina than Mary Star of the Sea

the fuck are you talking about "weird production" lol it's loud rock/pop with occasional flair

[smashingjj]

YOU ARE A WEIRD PRODUCTION

[Mals Marola]

you're an indie groundswell!

[FoolofaTook]

*your

[Mals Marola]

*your dad's

[FoolofaTook]

[VoxUpDoc]

Originally Posted by Mals Marola

i can think of few sharper left turns Billy could've taken after Machina than Mary Star of the Sea

the fuck are you talking about "weird production" lol it's loud rock/pop with occasional flair

He went back to SD/MCIS-style for the first Zwan live shows. Straightforward indie rock.

The album was crazy overproduced and clipped. Basically Owata: the album.

[MyKeyZ]

Originally Posted by fuzzyroes

And I don't know what you guys are smoking, I don't remember Zwan having any "indie cred". I remember it being seen as Billy Corgan's sugary new "super group".

I'm actually with fuzzyroes on this one. I don't remember Zwan getting any praise and I remember a mostly subpar response.

[Funbags]

Originally Posted by Woody

He went back to SD/MCIS-style for the first Zwan live shows. Straightforward indie rock.

The album was crazy overproduced and clipped. Basically Owata: the album.

Yeah, the guitars are a big blurry wash where you can barely tell what's going on. It's like the mid-range frequencies are cranked on everything from Billy's voice to the drums.

It's not a good sounding album.

[T&T]

Originally Posted by MyKeyZ

I'm actually with fuzzyroes on this one. I don't remember Zwan getting any praise and I remember a mostly subpar response.

if all you followed was the mainstream, then yes, the MSOTS media was a subpar response.
the time leading up to that had very positive indie response, obviously built on the backs of pajo and sweeny. it was uncocky complex guitar work with great songs.

[fuzzyroes]

Originally Posted by T&T

if all you followed was the mainstream, then yes, the MSOTS media was a subpar response.
the time leading up to that had very positive indie response, obviously built on the backs of pajo and sweeny. it was uncocky complex guitar work with great songs.

Can you guys source any articles at all showing this so called "indie hype" over Zwan? IIRC most of that excitement and narrative was coming out of the fan communities while the music rags cared very little about the Pajo/Sweeney factor. The main hype I recall about the lineup was just the standard "super group" angle that was all the rage at the time.

[fuzzyroes]

Even in 2001, the indie culture really couldn't care less and even had a general dislike regarding Billy Corgan, so him leading the group pretty much overrode any excitement that a group with Pajo and Sweeney may have garnered.

[T&T]

Originally Posted by fuzzyroes

Can you guys source any articles at all showing this so called "indie hype" over Zwan?

yeah, let me link you to those RS and Spin articles...

[MyKeyZ]

Originally Posted by T&T

yeah, let me link you to those RS and Spin articles...

Even more hysterical, Rolling Stone gave it 4 out of 5 stars and Spin gave it 8 out of 10. So much for your snarky mainstream comment.

Took 2 seconds checking Wiki and their citations...

https://web.archive.org/web/20030218...647&cf=2045135

https://books.google.com/books?id=1v...page&q&f=false

[Funbags]

Originally Posted by fuzzyroes

Can you guys source any articles at all showing this so called "indie hype" over Zwan? IIRC most of that excitement and narrative was coming out of the fan communities while the music rags cared very little about the Pajo/Sweeney factor. The main hype I recall about the lineup was just the standard "super group" angle that was all the rage at the time.

Sadly indiehype.com/zwan/articles/facts.html no longer exists.

[fuzzyroes]

Originally Posted by MyKeyZ

Even more hysterical, Rolling Stone gave it 4 out of 5 stars and Spin gave it 8 out of 10. So much for your snarky mainstream comment.

Took 2 seconds checking Wiki and their citations...

https://web.archive.org/web/20030218...647&cf=2045135

https://books.google.com/books?id=1v...page&q&f=false

Rolling Stone isn't much more than a propaganda arm of the major label machine. Any time a influential artist of the time puts out a new album rolling stone will give it 4 stars... Be it U2, McCartney, Green Day, Lady Gaga ETC, no matter how shitty the record is they'll hype it up... Hell I believe they even gave Zeitgeist a 4 star review, and I like parts of that release, but there's no way in any stretch of the imagination that it's a 4 star record

[fuzzyroes]

Originally Posted by Funbags

Sadly indiehype.com/zwan/articles/facts.html no longer exists.

Even read the glowing RS review... No mention of any indie narrative. Zwan was always all about the Billy Corgan factor to the average music fan. You guys who are stating that there was this big underground indie anticipation for the album are rewriting history. It just wasn't the case, no matter what you read over on the Sad Machines Facebook page.

[VoxUpDoc]

You heard fuckybrohs, hand in your dirty, revisionist memories, assholes.

[Mals Marola]

DON'T CLOTHE FUNNY ROADS

[Mals Marola]

DON'T LOATHE RUSTY FLOWS

[Mals Marola]

DON'T SMOKE FURRY CLOVES

[T&T]

Originally Posted by MyKeyZ

Even more hysterical, Rolling Stone gave it 4 out of 5 stars and Spin gave it 8 out of 10. So much for your snarky mainstream comment.

Took 2 seconds checking Wiki and their citations...

https://web.archive.org/web/20030218...647&cf=2045135

https://books.google.com/books?id=1v...page&q&f=false

you missed the joke. RS and spin aren't indie.

[FoolofaTook]

ironic

[Mals Marola]

don't ya think?

[MyKeyZ]

Originally Posted by T&T

you missed the joke. RS and spin aren't indie.

Yes, RS and Spin aren't indie. Any moron knows that.

Perhaps you forgot when you said this...

Originally Posted by T&T

if all you followed was the mainstream, then yes, the MSOTS media was a subpar response.
the time leading up to that had very positive indie response, obviously built on the backs of pajo and sweeny. it was uncocky complex guitar work with great songs.

Yet I showed that the album was quite popular in the mainstream. If you check Wiki, it actually got a lot of good reviews from major outlets and a decent overall score. It seems you missed the point.



I remember most SP fans shitting on it.

Still waiting for all that amazing indie buzz!

[myosis]

since when is fuzzyroes an expert on indie music?
what indie music rags from 2001 do people still have lying around?

[houseofglass11]

Zwan got trashed by Pitchfork when the album came out. Nobody cared about Zwan except the SP community. They were a total commercial flop and that in combination with Paz banging everyone in the band were the obvious reasons Billy blew it all up.