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Old 12-02-2023, 04:47 PM   #181
TuralyonW3
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Over 10,000 women and children killed in Gaza:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/gaza-...b028b0f3d041c9

Last edited by TuralyonW3 : 12-02-2023 at 05:45 PM.

 
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Old 12-02-2023, 10:48 PM   #182
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Serves them right for not having westphalian sovereignty

 
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Old 12-03-2023, 11:50 AM   #183
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Just need to point out that it's currently unclear how many Israeli people were killed by the IDF on 07Oct2023:
https://www.factcheck.org/2023/11/so...rcraft-attack/

https://new.thecradle.co/articles-id/13111

Official stance is "we cannot say", but Hamas doesn't have Apache helicopters, and there's quite a bit of photographic evidence of Israeli people who were clearly killed by said helicopters based on burn marks at the sites

Roughly 200 Palestinian bodies have been removed from the Israeli body count:
https://www.npr.org/2023/11/11/12124...-attacks-oct-7
" Many of the bodies were burned and mutilated that day, and the process of identifying them is still underway."

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20...ober-7-report/

It's going to come out eventually that a significant portion of Israeli people were, either accidentally or as a a matter of protocol, killed by their own defense forces that day.

https://www.liberationnews.org/evide...-blamed-hamas/

There's obviously no justification for acts of terrorism and mass violence, and it's disappointing but perhaps not surprising that this even needs to be said. Take a look at the response from Israel and ask yourself if it's proportional or if it's being handled well. Consider the history of the conflict and who has been the oppressor and who has been oppressed. Consider how the terror is being multiplied and amplified back out into the world by Israel's leadership, and what consequences that might have in years or decades.

 
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Old 12-03-2023, 11:53 AM   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TuralyonW3 View Post
Over 10,000 women and children killed in Gaza:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/gaza-...b028b0f3d041c9
Why do you hate freedom?

Sorry, I mean why are you an anti-Semite?

 
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Old 12-03-2023, 12:04 PM   #185
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For anyone who needs help talking about the conflict objectively around the table at Christmas dinner:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/...aps-and-charts

tl;dr - claims made by Israeli leadership that Gaza is no longer occupied by Israel are complete bullshit according to the definition of occupation as per the UN and numerous human rights organizations

 
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Old 12-03-2023, 09:56 PM   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by killtrocity View Post
For anyone who needs help talking about the conflict objectively around the table at Christmas dinner:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/...aps-and-charts

tl;dr - claims made by Israeli leadership that Gaza is no longer occupied by Israel are complete bullshit according to the definition of occupation as per the UN and numerous human rights organizations
There are literally Israeli troops in Gaza now... but the Israeli military left Gaza in Sept 2005. Israel troops were out of Gaza for 19 years.

 
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Old 12-03-2023, 09:59 PM   #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by killtrocity View Post
Just need to point out that it's currently unclear how many Israeli people were killed by the IDF on 07Oct2023:
https://www.factcheck.org/2023/11/so...rcraft-attack/

https://new.thecradle.co/articles-id/13111

Official stance is "we cannot say", but Hamas doesn't have Apache helicopters, and there's quite a bit of photographic evidence of Israeli people who were clearly killed by said helicopters based on burn marks at the sites

Roughly 200 Palestinian bodies have been removed from the Israeli body count:
https://www.npr.org/2023/11/11/12124...-attacks-oct-7
" Many of the bodies were burned and mutilated that day, and the process of identifying them is still underway."

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20...ober-7-report/

It's going to come out eventually that a significant portion of Israeli people were, either accidentally or as a a matter of protocol, killed by their own defense forces that day.

https://www.liberationnews.org/evide...-blamed-hamas/

There's obviously no justification for acts of terrorism and mass violence, and it's disappointing but perhaps not surprising that this even needs to be said. Take a look at the response from Israel and ask yourself if it's proportional or if it's being handled well. Consider the history of the conflict and who has been the oppressor and who has been oppressed. Consider how the terror is being multiplied and amplified back out into the world by Israel's leadership, and what consequences that might have in years or decades.
Wow. What's next? You going to claim the ovens at Auschwitz weren't a crematorium?

 
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Old 12-04-2023, 05:27 AM   #188
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Yes cause any and all criticism with regards to the state of Israel and its government is always exactly the same as antisemitism. If you think Gazans have it bad, the only outcome is that you're a holocaust denier. This is simple science.

 
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Old 12-04-2023, 11:15 AM   #189
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Associated Press are being very antisemitic

https://apnews.com/article/da582f11a...44ea6f2fc72c3a

JERUSALEM (AP) — Israel’s Supreme Court on Thursday rejected a legal challenge to the military’s rules on when soldiers can fire their weapons amid weeks of violent protests that have killed dozens of Palestinians on the border with Gaza.

Six human rights groups had asked the court to declare as unlawful any regulations that allow soldiers to open fire at unarmed civilians.

But in its unanimous ruling, the court sided with the Israeli military, which argued that the protests were taking place in the context of a long-running armed conflict with the Islamic militant group Hamas which rules Gaza and that weapons-use regulations are subject to the rules of armed conflict. Such rules provide greater leeway for the use of lethal force than those governing law enforcement practices.

Yesh Din, one of the rights groups that brought the challenge, slammed the court’s decision.

“The judges missed an opportunity to prevent the continuation of the killing and injuries,” the group said on Twitter.

Israeli fire has killed more than 100 Palestinians in weeks of violent protests along Israel’s border with the Gaza Strip. Nearly 60 of those were killed May 14, the deadliest protest day that also saw hundreds of Palestinians wounded.

Organizers said the protests were meant in part to break a decade-old Israeli-Egyptian blockade on the Gaza Strip. But Israel, which has faced blistering international criticism over its response, accuses Hamas of using the weekly border protests as cover to stage attacks.

The Israeli army has defended its actions. It points to the violent history of Hamas, says there have been shootings and bombing attacks against its forces, and fears a mass border breach.

On Twitter, Israeli Defense Minister Avigdor Lieberman welcomed the ruling and criticized the rights groups for challenging the military.

 
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Old 12-05-2023, 07:13 PM   #190
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Hamas were backed into a corner and left with no choice but to rape, mutilate, and kill women and children in self-defence.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67629181

I'm not at all defending Israel's response or questioning the reality of life in Gaza or overlooking the violent history, etc. but I've seen people (not here) valorize Hamas as righteous freedom fighters simply responding to years of Israeli policy, overlooking their sadism and brutal terror tactics.

 
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Old 12-06-2023, 06:58 AM   #191
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From The Times

Eight weeks after the attack in which 1,200 were killed and 240 taken hostage, there is mounting evidence of widespread rape on October 7. Israeli police have begun their biggest investigation into sexual violence and crimes against women. “It’s clear now that sexual crimes were part of the planning and the purpose was to terrify and humiliate people,” says Shelly Harush, the police commander leading the investigation.

They have collected thousands of statements, photographs and video clips, which she says “as a Jewish mother the mind and soul cannot bear”, including “girls whose pelvises were broken they had been raped so much”.



Once the bodies were collected they were taken to the main morgue at the Shura military base to be identified and prepared for burial. Among volunteers in an all-female team to prepare female corpses was Shari, 60, an architect who lives in Jerusalem.

Working there day and night for two weeks starting the morning after, she describes scenes of unimaginable horror. “This is a huge building but there were literally body bags filling every room and lining corridors floor to ceiling, all oozing liquids.

“Opening the body bags was scary as we didn’t know what we would see. They were all young women. Most in little clothing or shredded clothing and their bodies bloodied particularly round their underwear and some women shot many times in the face as if to mutilate them.

“Their faces were in anguish and often their fingers clenched as they died. We saw women whose pelvises were broken. Legs broken. There were women who had been shot in the crotch, in the breasts … there seems no doubt what happened to them.”

 
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Old 12-06-2023, 07:08 AM   #192
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I feel for the good decent people of Gaza but Hamas are grim. How do I not hate them

Die in pain u scum shitbags, u are an embarrassment to our species

 
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Old 12-06-2023, 11:57 AM   #193
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There's absolutely nothing wrong with hating Hamas. They're awful.

 
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Old 12-06-2023, 12:51 PM   #194
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Yes. They're what happens if you treat groups of people consistently as less than human; some of them will commit less-than-human acts.

 
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Old 12-06-2023, 04:10 PM   #195
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True, but I think it's good to be careful to make the distinction between explaining atrocities and justifying atrocities.

We can see how Israel's policies fomented this extremism while still condemning Hamas' actions as evil and unjustified.

Last edited by Disco King : 12-06-2023 at 04:29 PM.

 
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Old 12-06-2023, 08:45 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by Disco King View Post
We can see how Israel's policies fomented this extremism while still condemning Hamas' actions as evil and unjustified.
It's incredible how many people can't understand this very basic point.

 
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Old 12-08-2023, 01:42 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by smashingjj View Post
Yes. They're what happens if you treat groups of people consistently as less than human; some of them will commit less-than-human acts.
Arab groups were attacking Israel like this since the day it existed. It's not just about Likud's awful policies

 
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Old 12-08-2023, 07:44 AM   #198
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it's weird how they didn't just allow colonization like they were supposed to

 
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Old 12-08-2023, 12:17 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by MyOneAndOnly View Post
Arab groups were attacking Israel like this since the day it existed. It's not just about Likud's awful policies
And this isn't a problem that's emerged since Israel's official modern founding. It's always been.

And newsflash, Jews are from Israel and have thousands of years of history there

 
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Old 12-08-2023, 12:29 PM   #200
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There have been land disputes for milennia, but "colonizing" is an inaccurate and loaded word choice

 
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Old 12-08-2023, 07:53 PM   #201
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i feel like the whole conversation in this thread and in the US is basically some people saying "war crimes are always wrong" and other people saying "war crimes are okay if they're done by the good guys"

 
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Old 12-08-2023, 10:43 PM   #202
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i feel like the whole conversation in this thread and in the US is basically some people saying "war crimes are always wrong" and other people saying "war crimes are okay if they're done by the good guys"
This isn't the right distillation

There's no "good guy" and "bad guy" between Israeli and Palestinian citizens

If Hamas and its counterparts are not going to stop committing war crimes, which is apparent, why are they excused from all responsibility? Because they have a right to commit acts of terrorism? That's a thought process that's extremely loud.

 
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Old 12-08-2023, 10:54 PM   #203
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And also not absent from this thread, which is upsetting and foolish

 
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Old 12-09-2023, 02:27 AM   #204
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Nobody is giving hamas a pass.

However Hamas's existence is almost entirely driven by blowback from Israel's actions. And Hamas is not an organization that's unquestioningly supported by the governments of the western nations that we all live in.

You can't unscramble an egg. But why scramble it further? The only reason is pointless cruelty. So that your children and your children's children and your children's children's children can have their first handjob on Birthright? Awesome. Definitely worth all the suffering.

 
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Old 12-09-2023, 02:45 AM   #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovary View Post
i feel like the whole conversation in this thread and in the US is basically some people saying "war crimes are always wrong" and other people saying "war crimes are okay if they're done by the good guys"
nobody condones civilians dying. Not when they're in Gaza. Not when they're in a Kibbutz in Israel.

The fight club in here seems more like a bunch of gentiles deciding the Jews are getting what they deserve.

Last edited by MyOneAndOnly : 12-09-2023 at 02:56 AM.

 
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Old 12-09-2023, 02:54 AM   #206
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When I was in school I had a lot of Lefty friends who were super into the soviets and china. They'd wear Mao hats and Lenin t shirts and thought they were all edgy and cool. It was leftist fashion and they ate it up.

Now they are all middle aged, and they go to rallies and scream "from the river to the sea" and "colonizers out of Palestine"

They jumped from venerating the leaders of mass genocide to cheering on a second holocaust.


It reminds me of all the "Liberals" who voted for Trump or the Green Party "because her emails." It's not real to them. It's just fashion and protesting.

Last edited by MyOneAndOnly : 12-09-2023 at 02:59 AM.

 
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Old 12-09-2023, 08:03 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by john's ego View Post
Nobody is giving hamas a pass.

However Hamas's existence is almost entirely driven by blowback from Israel's actions. And Hamas is not an organization that's unquestioningly supported by the governments of the western nations that we all live in.

You can't unscramble an egg. But why scramble it further? The only reason is pointless cruelty. So that your children and your children's children and your children's children's children can have their first handjob on Birthright? Awesome. Definitely worth all the suffering.
Truth

 
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Old 12-09-2023, 09:47 AM   #208
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The fight club in here seems more like a bunch of gentiles deciding the Jews are getting what they deserve.
on the contrary, everyone here seems to agree that Hamas and its actions are atrocious. Where did you see one post that says that?

I try making a distinction between "the jews" and "Israel/its government" just like I do between Palestinians and Hamas because that distinction is of massive importance. It's also extremely important that a government can be criticized for its actions, and time and time again you seem to equate that to antisemitism.

and while indeed antisemitism is on the rise again, it's everywhere and it's just as bad as any form of racism, people are free to speak their minds on war crimes, cruelty, injustice of which the state of Israel is very guilty of and the idea that the continued slaughter of Palestinians (again, half of them are children) by the thousands still has anything to do with self defense makes no sense.

 
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Old 12-09-2023, 10:02 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by ilikeplanets View Post
This isn't the right distillation

There's no "good guy" and "bad guy" between Israeli and Palestinian citizens

If Hamas and its counterparts are not going to stop committing war crimes, which is apparent, why are they excused from all responsibility? Because they have a right to commit acts of terrorism? That's a thought process that's extremely loud.
nobody is saying hamas should be "excused from responsibility" or that "hamas has a right to do war crimes"; they're saying israel shouldn't do war crimes. see my original point.

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Originally Posted by MyOneAndOnly View Post
nobody condones civilians dying. Not when they're in Gaza. Not when they're in a Kibbutz in Israel.
so can you just say "israel should stop doing war crimes right now?" if so i think we're all basically in agreement.

 
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Old 12-09-2023, 10:13 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by john's ego View Post

You can't unscramble an egg. But why scramble it further? The only reason is pointless cruelty. So that your children and your children's children and your children's children's children can have their first handjob on Birthright? Awesome. Definitely worth all the suffering.
Israel isn't a vacation destination, and this statement is so crass and idiotic. That's what I meant earlier about being safe enough in your life to say this racist shit. At least you finally admitted that Israel's existence isn't "worth it" to you.

 
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