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Old 01-14-2002, 05:43 PM   #121
Crippler
 
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Exclamation

Quote:
Originally posted by trine:
In the world that you live in, maybe life is always so neat, tidy and rational. But its not for many women, who live in so many different societies, cultures, that to lay out a belief system so rigid that it couldn't possibly apply to millions of women on whom you feel the right to pass judgement on. Life is not always so clean and predictable. There are as many situations as there are people.
To suggest to ALL to always have thier shit together is totally unrealistic, not to mention ridiculous.

Again, bottom line, its not up to you.

You saying that your pro-choice is laughable. Your for choice if it applies to your narrow view of criteria of acceptability.

Grow up, and stop contradicting yourself.

Funny how you failed to acknowledge my argument entirely.

Thank you for proving to me that this society is more concerned about making people feel better about themselves for whatever lousy reasons exist than trying to reason with people and make them understand that some things are wrong, and that we as humans should just give up on teaching people that jamming coat hangers into themselves is wrong. Thank you for proving that accountability has no place in this world, and morality is relative.

If you can't win, don't bother playing, eh?

 
Old 01-14-2002, 05:56 PM   #122
trine
 
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Post

Quote:
Originally posted by Crippler:
Funny how you failed to acknowledge my argument entirely.

Thank you for proving to me that this society is more concerned about making people feel better about themselves for whatever lousy reasons exist than trying to reason with people and make them understand that some things are wrong, and that we as humans should just give up on teaching people that jamming coat hangers into themselves is wrong. Thank you for proving that accountability has no place in this world, and morality is relative.

If you can't win, don't bother playing, eh?
Your moratlity should be everyones morality! Absolutley, without question. Every situation should be some cookie cutter circumstance, where everyone lives happily ever after. What color is the sky in your world?
No one feels better after an invasive procedure like an abortion, shmuck. Its a difficult, painful, last resort to a fucked-up situation.

I'm eternally grateful that a decision that personal can be made by myself, for myself, unfettered by outside intrusions and judgements by every know-it-all like you.

You know nothing.



------------------
build a man a fire and he is warm for a day... set a man on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life...

 
Old 01-14-2002, 05:57 PM   #123
netphorian
 
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Arrow

Quote:
Originally posted by trine:
In the world that you live in, maybe life is always so neat, tidy and rational. But its not for many women, who live in so many different societies, cultures, that to lay out a belief system so rigid that it couldn't possibly apply to millions of women on whom you feel the right to pass judgement on. Life is not always so clean and predictable. There are as many situations as there are people.
To suggest to ALL to always have thier shit together is totally unrealistic, not to mention ridiculous.

Again, bottom line, its not up to you.

You saying that your pro-choice is laughable. Your for choice if it applies to your narrow view of criteria of acceptability.

Grow up, and stop contradicting yourself.

One of the best posts in this topic. Thank you.

Personally, I am both pro-choice and pro-euthanasia. If you can't be in control of your own body and/or your own life, then whose life is it? I understand that were it not for my parents, I wouldn't be here today to both enjoy the life I know. However, what would I be missing out on if I were never born? Nothing. I wouldn't exist. This is from a semi-existentialst viewpoint, but isn't it just slightly silly to attach a stigma to all life and each and every person, when not one of us knows what the world is really like, nor truly cares as long as it's outside of our immediate lives?

Who the hell are we to tell a woman what to do when for every "loose woman" there is at least an equal number of accidents (you may not want to believe it, but accidents DO happen...no contraceptive is 100%, and whether you like it or not, sex is going to happen. How many of you waited until you were married and/or ready for a child to have sex?)or a rape victim?

Adoption is an open option, but think outside of the made-for-tv-movie examples to the majority of unwanted children are NOT healthy white children. When the majority of people in at least North America want a healthy white baby, where does it leave the rest? Would YOU adopt an AIDS baby? A child with Down's Syndrome? Would you be willing to adopt outside of your race? Chances are, the answer is no for you as it is for most who participate in adoption.

*sigh*




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no.

 
Old 01-14-2002, 05:59 PM   #124
melancholia
 
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Post

"Your moratlity should be everyones morality! Absolutley, without question. Every situation should be some cookie cutter circumstance, where everyone lives happily ever after. What color is the sky in your world?
No one feels better after an invasive procedure like an abortion, shmuck. Its a difficult, painful, last resort to a fucked-up situation.

I'm eternally grateful that a decision that personal can be made by myself, for myself, unfettered by outside intrusions and judgements by every know-it-all like you.

You know nothing."

damn fucking straight!


 
Old 01-14-2002, 06:13 PM   #125
Eulogy
 
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Post

ok

I basically agree with everything Crippler has said.

If you are going to have casual sex, you should be able to deal with the consequences. You can't just plan on getting an abortion if you get pregnant.

But then if some 15-year-old gets raped and becomes pregnant, I don't think she should be forced to suffer for another nine months, because it wasn't a mistake that she made. With girls who have casual sex, it's their own fault.

 
Old 01-14-2002, 06:17 PM   #126
doctor gonzo
 
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Post

exactly.

------------------
www.nevercrashnow.com

 
Old 01-14-2002, 06:31 PM   #127
netphorian
 
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Post

Quote:
Originally posted by Eulogy:

If you are going to have casual sex, you should be able to deal with the consequences. You can't just plan on getting an abortion if you get pregnant.

I'm sorry, but this needs to be made clear.

The next time you have an abortion, you tell me how it went, okay? I heard it feels really good when they stick needles in your cervix and pry it open with machinery, then shove a sharp tube up there and poke around. Apparently the scraping of your insides with sharp objects is the best part. Lying in a pool of your own blood creates a really nice atmosphere for sex! (think: your balls, a staple gun, and a meat grinder.)


I just don't understand that mentality. You plan on getting an abortion as much as you fancy the idea of getting pregnant in the first place. The blaringly obvious truth is that we can't stop people from having sex, we can't make them use contraceptives, and we cannot assure them that the contraceptives they use will always protect them from disease and pregnancy. Since we cannot do that, we can't take away the right to abortion.

 
Old 01-14-2002, 06:43 PM   #128
Red Wine Cage
 
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Post

Quote:
Originally posted by SuckSuckStyle:
I know someone younger than me and she's had 3 abortions. I dont say abortions should be illegal, I just think she should be beaten.

LOLx10

i agree with flebath,as if anyone cares,but that WAS funny SuckSuck.

------------------
"You're living in the past,man!You're hung up on some clown from the sixties,MAN!!"

FALL FROM GRACEAVID'S SMASHING PUMPKINS BOOTLIST

 
Old 01-14-2002, 06:47 PM   #129
Ammy
 
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally posted by netphorian:
I'm sorry, but this needs to be made clear.

The next time you have an abortion, you tell me how it went, okay? I heard it feels really good when they stick needles in your cervix and pry it open with machinery, then shove a sharp tube up there and poke around. Apparently the scraping of your insides with sharp objects is the best part. Lying in a pool of your own blood creates a really nice atmosphere for sex! (think: your balls, a staple gun, and a meat grinder.)


I just don't understand that mentality. You plan on getting an abortion as much as you fancy the idea of getting pregnant in the first place. The blaringly obvious truth is that we can't stop people from having sex, we can't make them use contraceptives, and we cannot assure them that the contraceptives they use will always protect them from disease and pregnancy. Since we cannot do that, we can't take away the right to abortion.

good post.

 
Old 01-14-2002, 06:50 PM   #130
netphorian
 
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally posted by Ammy:

good post.

hey, thanks, Ammy.

 
Old 01-14-2002, 06:56 PM   #131
melancholia
 
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Post

netphorian- great fucking post.

 
Old 01-14-2002, 07:01 PM   #132
melancholia
 
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Post

yeah... i *heart* liberals

 
Old 01-14-2002, 07:01 PM   #133
Matt-
 
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Post

i agree with netphorian.
theres no such thing as a "casual" abortion, like going to see a movie and when you come back home *poof* you're not pregnant. nonononono, i've seen the weeks of pain women go through because of this, and its a far cry from casual.
i personally wouldnt want to be a child of a mother who looks at you every day realizing what she "could have done to avoid this".

 
Old 01-14-2002, 07:17 PM   #134
raindrops + sunshowers
 
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Post

Crippler: Your logic is circumlocutious. Noble, but circumlocutious.

Abortions for reasons of casual sex is wrong by your beliefs, correct? I'm assuming the reason for that is because it would be disallowing the fetus a chance to live. You can say it's because "people need to face up to the consequences of their actions," but if you didn't think killing a fetus after casual sex was wrong, you logically couldn't make that argument up in the first place because abortion WOULD be facing up to the consequences if it were permissible.

Yet any other sort of abortions are all right.

That makes absolutely no sense. It's killing, period, by your logic; you are arguing against yourself when you say the situation makes a difference. An unwanted fetus from a rape is the same exact thing as an unwanted fetus from a condom breaking; just because you don't approve of the manner with which the child was conceived doesn't make it right, and furthermore, you cannot bring your own morality into an argument completely devoid of it elsewhere simply because it's convenient. Besides, there are some people out there--sadists, perhaps mentally ill people, but they are out there--who don't think rape is wrong, or that it's the girl's fault. Should she have to keep her baby then?

Another argument I've seen a lot in this thread is that abortion after, say, a rape is okay, because the mother and the baby will both face repercussions. Again, that's arguing against yourself. Casual sex or not, there are poor mothers who cannot afford the child they are pregnant with. Maybe she can't afford healthcare. Last I checked, that's negative repercussions for both herself and the baby.

You cannot, and will not, stop people from having sex. Period. Get off of your moral soap box for a minute and realize: it's an inevitability. People are going to have sex, and nothing you say can prevent that. Furthermore, it is not your place to dictate morality to the world--especially in America, where personal freedom is our most precious liberty--and it is not your place to tell people that they should be "responsible for their actions" in this scenario when it's virtually impossible to tell where life, and responsibility, begin.

And as a last point, you might not like it, but considering the vast majority of you have not studied anatomy or biology nearly in depth enough to have an opinion on the subject, you have absolutely no idea when "life" begins, and you can't even have an educated opinion on the subject. There IS a scientific basis to th is. Yes, all laws begin as opinion, but laws such as these begin as a majority opinion. On a hot-button issue such as this, the law is never going to be based on a "majority."

Of course, it is possible to believe in a pro-life stance for religious or moral reasons, and that is fine; you're entitled, of course, to your opinion. But when you argue that your ideas should be made law, that's when the title of this thread becomes reality. Those are arguments based on conjecture and blanket morality, neither of which presents a clear, logical case or is conducive to law-making in this country, and neither of which presents a compelling argument. We can argue morality here all day and never get anywhere. Arguing the law, however, is a different matter, and in that arena, pro-lifers are pretty pitiful.

 
Old 01-14-2002, 07:22 PM   #135
bonsor
 
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Post

Think of it this way, pro-lifers.

How many people's lives are affected negatively upon someone's murder?

How many people's lives are affected negatively when an unwanted child is brought into the world?

How many people's lives are affected negatively when an unwanted pregnancy is aborted?

I'm just guessing here, but I have a feeling the answer to the last question isn't as large as the answers to the first two. Abortion is not intended to be a form of birth control, and I'll admit that it unfortunately used as one sometimes. But to totally abolish the practice of abortion will only cause more problems.

Look, I'm not pro-abortion. I don't want for anybody to want or need an abortion, but unfortunately, abortions are needed, and despite how much I may look down on people who have abortions as a method of birth control, I feel that I have no right to impose on their choice to do whatever they want with their body. That's why I'm prochoice. It not my uterus. It's not my choice.

[This message has been edited by ****** (edited 01-14-2002).]

 
Old 01-14-2002, 07:23 PM   #136
netphorian
 
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally posted by raindrops + sunshowers:
Crippler: Your logic is circumlocutious. Noble, but circumlocutious.

Abortions for reasons of casual sex is wrong by your beliefs, correct? I'm assuming the reason for that is because it would be disallowing the fetus a chance to live. You can say it's because "people need to face up to the consequences of their actions," but if you didn't think killing a fetus after casual sex was wrong, you logically couldn't make that argument up in the first place because abortion WOULD be facing up to the consequences if it were permissible.

Yet any other sort of abortions are all right.

That makes absolutely no sense. It's killing, period, by your logic; you are arguing against yourself when you say the situation makes a difference. An unwanted fetus from a rape is the same exact thing as an unwanted fetus from a condom breaking; just because you don't approve of the manner with which the child was conceived doesn't make it right, and furthermore, you cannot bring your own morality into an argument completely devoid of it elsewhere simply because it's convenient. Besides, there are some people out there--sadists, perhaps mentally ill people, but they are out there--who don't think rape is wrong, or that it's the girl's fault. Should she have to keep her baby then?

Another argument I've seen a lot in this thread is that abortion after, say, a rape is okay, because the mother and the baby will both face repercussions. Again, that's arguing against yourself. Casual sex or not, there are poor mothers who cannot afford the child they are pregnant with. Maybe she can't afford healthcare. Last I checked, that's negative repercussions for both herself and the baby.

You cannot, and will not, stop people from having sex. Period. Get off of your moral soap box for a minute and realize: it's an inevitability. People are going to have sex, and nothing you say can prevent that. Furthermore, it is not your place to dictate morality to the world--especially in America, where personal freedom is our most precious liberty--and it is not your place to tell people that they should be "responsible for their actions" in this scenario when it's virtually impossible to tell where life, and responsibility, begin.

And as a last point, you might not like it, but considering the vast majority of you have not studied anatomy or biology nearly in depth enough to have an opinion on the subject, you have absolutely no idea when "life" begins, and you can't even have an educated opinion on the subject. There IS a scientific basis to th is. Yes, all laws begin as opinion, but laws such as these begin as a majority opinion. On a hot-button issue such as this, the law is never going to be based on a "majority."

Of course, it is possible to believe in a pro-life stance for religious or moral reasons, and that is fine; you're entitled, of course, to your opinion. But when you argue that your ideas should be made law, that's when the title of this thread becomes reality. Those are arguments based on conjecture and blanket morality, neither of which presents a clear, logical case or is conducive to law-making in this country, and neither of which presents a compelling argument. We can argue morality here all day and never get anywhere. Arguing the law, however, is a different matter, and in that arena, pro-lifers are pretty pitiful.
wonderful points, wonderful post. thumbs up.



------------------
no.

 
Old 01-14-2002, 07:28 PM   #137
bonsor
 
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Post

Yea, chris. That was fucking great.

 
Old 01-14-2002, 07:31 PM   #138
Will
 
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Post

Quote:
Originally posted by Crippler:
To conclude, there is no way in hell anyone will convince me that abortion, with the exception of health of the mother, rape and incest, is right.

I'm off to work. It's been fun arguing with y'all.

And that, my friends, is true.
that is not truth. it is an insular view from some one who has no idea of what he speaks. trine saying you know nothing.. that was the most truth in this entire post.
what are your morals, stephen? what do you believe about sex? if the girl you fucked had become pregnant, what would you have done? if she had wanted to have an abortion, would you have condoned it? would you have explained to her that it was against your morals and that she was not allowed? and if she decided to have the child, would you have married her? would you have supported the child? would you have been able to support the child, without being forced to leave school or something worse?

i don't believe you'll ever have the authority to say whether or not abortion is right or wrong, nor do i believe any one who has not been placed in a position where abortion a "tempting" alternative can make that decision. you aren't even a woman. how can you make such judgements?

the day that abortion becomes personal to you, heartwrenchingly so, is the first day you may have any understanding of the seriousness of that decision.

don't claim what you say is truth.
you, honestly, truthfully, don't know.

 
Old 01-14-2002, 10:16 PM   #139
Smack Me In My Mouth
 
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Thumbs up

I love this thread.

Next on the agenda: Meat is Murder!

 
Old 01-14-2002, 11:33 PM   #140
tweedyburd
 
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Red face

I'd like to see some of the pro-lifers in this thread--most of which are surely under 20 and still living at home--be faced with a pregnant girlfriend. I bet your opinions on this would flip flop, or at the very least become compromised.

People shouldn't really argue for the pro-life stance if they're arguing only in theory rather than from pragmatic experience.

 
Old 01-14-2002, 11:43 PM   #141
bonsor
 
Posts: n/a
Post

Quote:
Originally posted by tweedyburd:
I'd like to see some of the pro-lifers in this thread--most of which are surely under 20 and still living at home--be faced with a pregnant girlfriend. I bet your opinions on this would flip flop, or at the very least become compromised.
I'd hate to pick and pry, but isn't this how you 'flip-flopped'?


 
Old 01-14-2002, 11:44 PM   #142
thewatchmaker
 
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Post

I'm definitely pro-death.

 
Old 01-14-2002, 11:48 PM   #143
raindrops + sunshowers
 
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Post

Quote:
Originally posted by thewatchmaker:
I'm definitely pro-death.
Yeah, 'cause we've never heard that one before.

Jesus--add something to the debate, or don't post at all. Stuff like that is just ridiculous, and your faux-emphaticness isn't powerful, just asinine.


 
Old 01-14-2002, 11:50 PM   #144
thewatchmaker
 
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Post

LMAO

Please stop throwing around that high diction, I don't really care if you have a thesaurus or not. And I'm just joking, stop being such a ****beater.

 
Old 01-14-2002, 11:52 PM   #145
Smack Me In My Mouth
 
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Post

This is really off-topic, but regarding what that Watchmaker guy just said:

Why do people assume that when someone uses an uncommon word, they must be taking it from a thesaurus for the sole reason of impressing people? It's retarded.

 
Old 01-14-2002, 11:56 PM   #146
thewatchmaker
 
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Post

Because if you are snapping at someone because they are joking around, you don't use a word like asinine. It makes you look like an arrogant prick.

 
Old 01-14-2002, 11:56 PM   #147
Mark LeDrew
 
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Red face

Jesus, you're STILL talking about this? Seems like an awful lot of trouble for a fetus.

 
Old 01-14-2002, 11:57 PM   #148
bonsor
 
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Post

Quote:
Originally posted by Mark LeDrew:
Jesus, you're STILL talking about this? Seems like an awful lot of trouble for a fetus.
"You're breaking my balls, Jack."


 
Old 01-14-2002, 11:58 PM   #149
Graveflower
 
Posts: n/a
Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally posted by thewatchmaker:
Because if you are snapping at someone because they are joking around, you don't use a word like asinine. It makes you look like an arrogant prick.
That might just be the way he talks.

 
Old 01-15-2002, 12:00 AM   #150
thewatchmaker
 
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Post

Well I wasn't trying to be "powerful" or "fauxempathatic." I was just trying to be annoying.

 
 


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