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Old 01-18-2015, 02:14 AM   #1
morespsoon
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Unhappy Putting Billy Corgan's career in context...

Robert Smith V. Billy Corgan...the following is flawed I know but why not?

If you take 1991 as "Year 0" for Billy Corgan and 1979 as "Year 0" for Robert Smith...

Smith released "Wild Mood Swings" at about the same point in his career that Corgan released "Teargarden by Kaleidyscope."

Could someone explain how that's even possible?

Last edited by morespsoon : 01-18-2015 at 02:37 AM.

 
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Old 01-18-2015, 02:19 AM   #2
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Old 01-18-2015, 02:36 AM   #3
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I see you corrected yourself (your edit ruined my Bowie gif ). In an attempt to answer your question, The Cure have had a relatively consistent lineup, plus members have contributed to songwriting over the years. The two bands work quite differently on an internal and creative level. They also still play 2-3 hour shows that span their entire career and they don't seem to loathe their fans the way Billy does.

 
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Old 01-18-2015, 02:36 AM   #4
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Billy's insane

 
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Old 01-18-2015, 02:40 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Araneae View Post
I see you corrected yourself (your edit ruined my Bowie gif ). In an attempt to answer your question, The Cure have had a relatively consistent lineup, plus members have contributed to songwriting over the years. The two bands work quite differently on an internal and creative level. They also still play 2-3 hour shows that span their entire career and they don't seem to loathe their fans the way Billy does.
You just reminded me of something I posted years ago. I think this is the answer to my original post:

http://forums.netphoria.org/showthread.php?t=174381

I was listening to some SP1 last night and I was thinking about how many of the songs could have easily ended up being as bad as any SP3 song if they just went in a slightly different direction or had the wrong annoying effects inserted.

Take the song "Freak" for example. There's a dozen SP1 songs that could have ended up sounding like that if the wrong choices were made all the way down the line. I think most of the SP1 songs are like that.

Here's a challenge: Next time you're listening to SP1 think about how the songs you're listening to could have ended up sounding like SP3. I think you'll find that it could have happened EASILY. Add annoying effect here, make a bad decision there... and suddenly the best SP1 songs would end up sounding like SP3.

It's very possible Iha, Darcy, Chamberlain, and the producers involved with the Pumpkins made it cool and hip and relevant...I'm starting to think that Billy Corgan is something like George Lucas, an artist with massive talent but very little TASTE or awareness. When they're relatively "poor" and under great pressure and being shaped by the right influences they'll produce great things (Star Wars 4-6, Corgan pre-SP2). When they become comfortable and work too independently their lack of TASTE and awareness shows (Howard the duck, The Phantom Menace, SP2, SP3).

 
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Old 01-18-2015, 03:02 AM   #6
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Robert's voice also sounds great to this day

 
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Old 01-18-2015, 03:10 AM   #7
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Yeah, I saw them several times in the past couple of years and Robert's voice still sounds great. I love the addition of Reeves Gabrels to the live lineup as well. They sound amazing live.

 
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Old 01-18-2015, 03:21 AM   #8
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wasn't wild mood swings pretty much maligned as much as teargarden

i mean i like it but isn't it pretty much the same level of "what the fuck are they even doing? i like a coupla these songs but shit"

i haven't heard wms as a full album that much but that's still pretty much the impression it gave me

 
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Old 01-18-2015, 03:33 AM   #9
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It was pretty harshly maligned upon release, but it has since gained favor from the fans. Two longtime Cure members left (Boris and Porl) and Gallup was only there for part of the album. It was also quite a long album (about 14 tracks, 60+ minutes).

I quite like the album, flaws and all. It has some great high points (and of course some lows). "Want" is one of the best Cure tracks and a great live tune. In comparison, Wild Mood Swings is a much stronger body of work than TBK, IMO.

 
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Old 01-18-2015, 03:36 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mals Marola View Post
wasn't wild mood swings pretty much maligned as much as teargarden

i mean i like it but isn't it pretty much the same level of "what the fuck are they even doing? i like a coupla these songs but shit"

i haven't heard wms as a full album that much but that's still pretty much the impression it gave me
I think it's a masterpiece. If anyone thinks that Teargarden comes anywhere near Wild Mood Swings on a musical level, you just lost any and all credibility with me.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3lobEbZdAA

 
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Old 01-18-2015, 03:40 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Araneae View Post
It was pretty harshly maligned upon release, but it has since gained favor from the fans. Two longtime Cure members left (Boris and Porl) and Gallup was only there for part of the album. It was also quite a long album (about 14 tracks, 60+ minutes).

I quite like the album, flaws and all. It has some great high points (and of course some lows). "Want" is one of the best Cure tracks and a great live tune. In comparison, Wild Mood Swings is a much stronger body of work than TBK, IMO.
It's the lowest rated album by The Cure according to this site:

http://www.sputnikmusic.com/bands/The-Cure/55/

I'm stunned, I think it's brilliant.

This is just one of the more average songs on the album but this fan created video brings it to life IMHO.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnQIB076Uf4

 
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Old 01-18-2015, 03:43 AM   #12
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yeah i like like two songs on WMS and nothing they ever made after this. And they'e my favorite band of all time...

While The cure put out way more good records than SP, Corgan peaked much faster. I like the early cure records but it would essentially take ten years for Smith to write his masterpiece. On the other hand, Smith was like 20 when he got signed and his songwriting skills were very basic at that time. By the time Corgan formed SP i think he was a far more accomplished songwriter bit it's just that he'd spent his formative years in the shadows. The cure got signed on the heels of the punk craze so Smiths' formaive years as a songwriter were spent in the so to speak, spotlight.

But then something occured to me..if you count all of Corgan's output from Gish to Machina II considering all the countless bsides...that's probably as many songs as there are on the first 9 Cure records. Corgan would have done better to hang on to a lot of these songs and put them on records, where they matter most but if you go with song totals, i guess SP were good for as many "records" worth as The cure.

the cure has toured on the strength of their old song since the early 2000s. But unlike corgan, they don't make thing of it. Pretty sure smith is well aware his good years as an artist are way behind. But you don't hear him talk about how the kids today and blahblah. He just does it. Probably mainly for the paycheck even. So what...he's accepted his place in music history i think. He seems fine with it. I mean ive bene wishing theyd quit for a long long time but as i grow older i feel...if they still want to who really gives a fuck. It's not like they've known anything else.

 
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Old 01-18-2015, 03:47 AM   #13
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Wow WMS is no masteriece. What the hell. I mean to each their own but...

I like the 13th a lot though. And kinda mint car. I think they could have made a good record, they still had it in them then. But...the record is too uneven. half assed ideas or i dont know. I don't even mind that its more cheery. i think they could have made that work. But the quality of the songs just wasnt there.

 
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Old 01-18-2015, 03:49 AM   #14
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The thing i woner is how anyone can like most of Smith's lyrics past Wish. Compare the lyrics on Kmkmkm and disintegration to anything on WMS and beyond... it is in that sense similar to what corgan lyrics are now compared to mcis.

 
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Old 01-18-2015, 03:52 AM   #15
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yeah i like like two songs on WMS and nothing they ever made after this.
I have the exact opposite opinion. "4:13 Dream" and "The Cure" are my two favorite albums by them.

In fact, I prefer "4:13 Dream" to their first greatest hits album.

 
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Old 01-18-2015, 03:58 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by The exploding boy View Post
The thing i woner is how anyone can like most of Smith's lyrics past Wish. Compare the lyrics on Kmkmkm and disintegration to anything on WMS and beyond... it is in that sense similar to what corgan lyrics are now compared to mcis.
The lyrics to "Lost" might be the deepest I've ever heard in my life. If you haven't experienced this, you might not know how it feels.

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/cure/lost.html

The lyrics to "Freakshow" are probably the most intricate and creative ever created for such a short song, I can't comprehend all of it.

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/cure/freakshow.html

And that's just two examples, I could go on.

Last edited by morespsoon : 01-18-2015 at 04:12 AM.

 
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Old 01-18-2015, 04:00 AM   #17
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I couldn't disagree more with your posts, exploding boy.

The Cure have a large body of work, including b-sides, live only songs, etc. It's really not that far off from the quantity that Billy has produced over the years. I mean a lot of the unreleased songs are just simple Billy acoustic songs that he wrote before a show or something. Quantity really shouldn't be a factor. Billy has also stopped writing and introducing as many songs as he used to. His level of output on even a quantity level has drastically reduced over the years.

It has been a long time since I've enjoyed a Cure album from beginning to end post-1992 but they still release high quality songs. Each release has had at least a handful of great Cure songs that fit comfortably into their legacy.

I also don't know what you mean when you say "mainly for the paycheck," they play songs that span their 35 year career, 2-3 hour shows, and they still release new albums. How is that playing "for the paycheck?" And the lyric comparisons, c'mon, Smith has never been a great wordsmith but to say that Smith's lyrics are as bad as Billy's MTAE or Oceania lyrics is ridiculous. Smith has been consistent, he has great lines and some bad lines, like he always has.

 
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Old 01-18-2015, 05:18 AM   #18
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To me smith has lost his creatie spark as muhc as Billy has.

And my number bullshit comparison, it was to determine if according by my tastes the good phase of SP produced as many "records" as the good phase of The Cure.

Actually i just did the numbers and didnt even count bsides (so no TAFH) for either

TIB to Wish (10 albums) 109 songs
Gish to Machina II (7 albums) 119 songs

I think likely Corgan has in this period as many bsides and singles not on records as the cure got from 1979 to 1992 so basically the good output of Corgan vs the good output of the cure in quantity is about the same. The cure did it across 13 years, Corgan did it in 10. I mean yeah of course not all these songs are good but i'd think both bands would fare similarly in that regard at least for my taste if i narrowed it down to good songs. Like I don't care for gish for example but i also dont really care for The top for the most part so they'd cancel out.

Also in regard to op...how is WMS the same point in Cure's career as billy with teargarden? If you count from first record in years, the same point would be more like Zeitgeist. I would rate both records similarly in terms of what the fuck happened to this band. Though i'd give the upper hand to The Cure still....


As for the paycheck remark, well their tours still do well, they still get billed well on festivals and all. It's a good steady income to do it every few years. You can try to argue Smith's still got the spark but the songs don't say he does. I mean between the cure's output since 1996 and SP's output since 2001... Same shit as far as i'm concerned.

I also want to say that i don't know why i brought up kmkmkm has a great example of good lyrics for Smith. A lot of them yeah, but there's at least 3 or 4 real lyrical turds on it (Fight, Torture, A thousand hours...) I wouldn't really compare smith with corgan as lyricist as their approach is fairly different. At least Smith could do simple without sounding dumb (In between days being a great example). Apparently judging by MTAE, it's not something Corgan can pull. But maybe he could have when he was young....if he'd tried.

 
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Old 01-18-2015, 07:44 AM   #19
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I think it's a masterpiece. If anyone thinks that Teargarden comes anywhere near Wild Mood Swings on a musical level, you just lost any and all credibility with me.
if you're implying that that's what i said then you can suck my goddamn dick, more sp soon

i like WMS, but both bands had more or less significantly fallen out of favor with their fanbases by that point (well, each one's respective points in their careers or whatever) as far as i can tell, so there's at least THAT parallel

some hot tunes from both tho, for sure

& as for that remark on s/t & 4:13 dream, well, i can't speak much for 4:13 dream but a true high five on the s/t love. that one's in my top five curations (haha!) as well

those bonus tracks for the japanese release... shit i completely forgot about buying it! to the bat mobile robin, haha, we've got some cash to spend

 
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Old 01-18-2015, 07:58 AM   #20
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classic morespsoon thread

 
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Old 01-18-2015, 07:59 AM   #21
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USING YEAR ZERO METALLICA RELEASED RE-LOAD AT THE SAME TIME BILL RELEASED TEARGEARDENASSNS I MEAN HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE RELOAD IS ONE OF THE GREATEST ALBUMS OF ALL

 
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Old 01-18-2015, 10:00 AM   #22
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I have the exact opposite opinion. "4:13 Dream" and "The Cure" are my two favorite albums by them.

In fact, I prefer "4:13 Dream" to their first greatest hits album.
This is the kind of opinion that only a sociopath could harbor

 
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Old 01-18-2015, 10:01 AM   #23
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GIMME FUEL GIMME FIRE GIMME THAT WHICH I DESIRE



OOOOOOO YEAH

 
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Old 01-18-2015, 11:07 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Dogfighter28 View Post
This is the kind of opinion that only a sociopath could harbor
http://www.quickmeme.com/img/a7/a734...8f5ac4a49a.jpg

I guess the poor placement of the words in that meme was done purposefully?

The cat is so angry that he doesn't even care if the words "sick joke" fit correctly on the meme?

Last edited by morespsoon : 01-18-2015 at 01:13 PM.

 
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Old 01-18-2015, 11:28 AM   #25
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I have the exact opposite opinion. "4:13 Dream" and "The Cure" are my two favorite albums by them.

In fact, I prefer "4:13 Dream" to their first greatest hits album.
You're a fucking idiot.

 
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Old 01-18-2015, 12:49 PM   #26
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3:17 Disarm

 
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Old 01-18-2015, 12:56 PM   #27
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if you use 2009 as year zero billy is doing just fine

 
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Old 01-18-2015, 01:49 PM   #28
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Now that it has been revealed morespoon only likes the absolutely terrible phase of the cure, there is no use even discussing the topic of this thread further.

 
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Old 01-18-2015, 01:57 PM   #29
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MORE SPOONS

 
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Old 01-18-2015, 02:08 PM   #30
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I love you guys

 
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