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Old 06-23-2022, 12:49 PM   #121
T&T
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vitaldust View Post
http://blastecho.com/nicole-fiorenti...hing-pumpkins/

But I'm sure you know more about it than she does. Or Billy Corgan. Or anyone associated with the band at that time.
straight to the facts:
Quote:
vibe that I inferred

 
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Old 06-23-2022, 01:05 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T&T View Post
straight to the facts:
like I said. You know more about it than anyone.

But I'm inclined to accept her opinion on the matter, however misguided that may be. The vibe she inferred somehow seems more grounded in, you know, actual reality than the vibe you are entirely making up.

Was the vibe she inferred 'he fired me because I was gay'?

Was the vibe she inferred 'he fired me because I like dogs too much'?

Was the vibe she inferred 'he fired me because I thought Waiting for the Barbarians is the best Coetzee novel'?

No?

I think she was pretty clear on the vibe.

 
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Old 06-23-2022, 01:06 PM   #123
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It's all a variation of "Go ride around in a white van for the rest of your life". That time he knew Jimmy was shifting to a quiter family life and insulted him.

Calling him a transphobe or a homophobe is mistaking the subject of the discussion.

 
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Old 06-23-2022, 01:44 PM   #124
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imagine the lawsuit she'd find herself fighting if she said:
Quote:
Was the vibe she inferred 'he fired me because I was gay'?
you're missing the forest for the trees:
WE're talking about a rock band & "being fired". this is how billy thinks he can make good organic music - by treat people like they're disposable. It's like what he learned from zwan was "better hire some no-names"

 
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Old 06-23-2022, 01:49 PM   #125
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Christ, I still feel like this is a "new" Smashing Pumpkins album. Yet it is as old now as Adore was when Zeitgeist came out.
Lol, I did not read the thread before I commented, and I assumed that the topic was still Oceania being ten years old.

What should have been my clue to check is the fact that nobody could possibly be interested enough in Oceania being ten years old for a discussion of that to reach four pages.

 
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Old 06-23-2022, 02:16 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T&T View Post
imagine the lawsuit she'd find herself fighting if she said:


you're missing the forest for the trees:
WE're talking about a rock band & "being fired". this is how billy thinks he can make good organic music - by treat people like they're disposable. It's like what he learned from zwan was "better hire some no-names"
you're right. Whatever scenario you've imagined is much more believable.

I'm sure he hired an openly gay bassist, had her record, tour, rehearse... just so he could turn around and fire her just because she is gay. I'm sure her involvement in other projects had nothing to do with it. I'm sure her own opinion about why she was let go is totally off the mark.

I'm sure Nicole wanted to play for SP and remain with SP even after her dismissal because billy was such a gay hating bigot.

I'm sure you're right about all of this.

 
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Old 06-23-2022, 02:17 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T&T View Post
WE're talking about a rock band & "being fired". this is how billy thinks he can make good organic music - by treat people like they're disposable. It's like what he learned from zwan was "better hire some no-names"
this is also the way rock bands have worked since the existence of rock bands.

 
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Old 06-23-2022, 02:19 PM   #128
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you have much to learn little one.

 
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Old 06-23-2022, 02:27 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by T&T View Post
you have much to learn little one.
From someone with such an all-knowing, all-wise, and all-seeing view on the intricacies of every facet of the band, perhaps even all life itself? From someone such as yourself? I'm overwhelmed with deferential insignificance.

 
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Old 06-23-2022, 02:43 PM   #130
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There has been a lot of Kumbaya bullshit in this forum recently so I have to say this thread is a welcome return to form for Netphoria.

I shall go forth and eat sacks.

 
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Old 06-23-2022, 04:23 PM   #131
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I think that there is enough evidence to consider Billy Corgan relatively transphobic based on the lame jokes and stories of violent impulses he has shared with us on blogs and on the stage.

People get so enraged about this accusation because they think that it implies that Billy doesn't live up to some contemporary wokeness that also bothers his defenders. But we could also compare BC to people like Lou Reed and David Bowie, who explored trans ideas and did it in the 60s and 70s, before either pronouns or "wokeness" were a thing. Perhaps they were just secure enough in their own gender identities that they didn't feel the need to advertise their macho masculinity.

Also, he only wore dresses to copy Cobain. The "dresses" he wears more recently are more like robes for his Zero cult BS.

 
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Old 06-23-2022, 04:32 PM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NovaFritz View Post
I think that there is enough evidence to consider Billy Corgan relatively transphobic based on the lame jokes and stories of violent impulses he has shared with us on blogs and on the stage.

People get so enraged about this accusation because they think that it implies that Billy doesn't live up to some contemporary wokeness that also bothers his defenders. But we could also compare BC to people like Lou Reed and David Bowie, who explored trans ideas and did it in the 60s and 70s, before either pronouns or "wokeness" were a thing. Perhaps they were just secure enough in their own gender identities that they didn't feel the need to advertise their macho masculinity.

Also, he only wore dresses to copy Cobain. The "dresses" he wears more recently are more like robes for his Zero cult BS.
I think there are two discussions happening in this thread.

1. Billy is transphobic and/or homophobic.
2. His prejudices influenced the firing of Nicole.

For point one, I think we have evidence of at least a few incidents of that behavior that range from outright hostile to horribly tone deaf.

For point two, we don't have any evidence that this disposition lead to the firing of Nicole. The BlastEcho interview is about as definitive of an answer as we'll get due to the NDAs.

Billy is an asshole. He does asshole things. He might (probably) also have some prejudices against gay and trans people. Some of the asshole things he does, like the outbursts and threats, are driven by those prejudices.

But firing Nicole was probably just because he was an asshole. Nicole and Mike were close, too, which could not have helped Nicole's employment with the band at the end.

 
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Old 06-24-2022, 08:58 AM   #133
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Haha what is this crap. I know there was never some formal, official explanation but the reasons have been made really clear over the years by things said by Nicole and WPC.

 
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Old 06-24-2022, 11:48 AM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rairun View Post
Yep, in the 90s he threatened to break a trans woman's legs because she told people they hooked up, and then in the 2000s he told us all about it on LiveJournal. Didn't sound regretful at all.

Here's him being casually transphobic in 2019:

This is amazing. I had never seen it because I think those Billy alone with the acoustic guitar and piano shows he did were more boring than church. But this is comedy gold. The crowd just continuing to yell after Corgan tells them to shut up, him getting testier, the woman recording (I am guessing Polka Dot Pam) sounding like she's about to cry as it happens ("Stooooooooooppppppp" whenever people start yelling requests).

 
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Old 06-24-2022, 01:13 PM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baffler_Meal View Post

For point one, I think we have evidence of at least a few incidents of that behavior that range from outright hostile to horribly tone deaf.

For point two, we don't have any evidence that this disposition lead to the firing of Nicole. The BlastEcho interview is about as definitive of an answer as we'll get due to the NDAs.

Billy is an asshole. He does asshole things. He might (probably) also have some prejudices against gay and trans people. Some of the asshole things he does, like the outbursts and threats, are driven by those prejudices.

But firing Nicole was probably just because he was an asshole. Nicole and Mike were close, too, which could not have helped Nicole's employment with the band at the end.
This is the perfect summary

 
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Old 06-24-2022, 06:54 PM   #136
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i mean not to jump to vulgar and libelous conclusions

But of all the illegal acts one can do with a baby, in a nursery, he choose to sing about something involving his “strange love”

It’s like

 
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Old 06-24-2022, 07:05 PM   #137
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billy puts his pee pee on his babies

but he can't kick them out of the band because they're not IN the band. they're just children. relax folks.



since billy has all those STDs and gross stuff (like balding) - I heard the sperm doner he used to impregnate his wife gets 5k a month alimony, more than he was paying nicole or mike. It would be innappropriate to pass jugement on his cuckolding fetish.

 
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Old Yesterday, 09:23 AM   #138
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Can you please go have a timeout and come back when you have an entirely different brain

 
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Old Yesterday, 12:55 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rairun View Post
Yep, in the 90s he threatened to break a trans woman's legs because she told people they hooked up, and then in the 2000s he told us all about it on LiveJournal. Didn't sound regretful at all.

Here's him being casually transphobic in 2019:

Not transphobic at all, don't be silly.

 
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Old Yesterday, 01:07 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by themadcaplaughs View Post
This is amazing. I had never seen it because I think those Billy alone with the acoustic guitar and piano shows he did were more boring than church. But this is comedy gold. The crowd just continuing to yell after Corgan tells them to shut up, him getting testier, the woman recording (I am guessing Polka Dot Pam) sounding like she's about to cry as it happens ("Stooooooooooppppppp" whenever people start yelling requests).
He was in a weird place before the pandemic...

 
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Old Yesterday, 02:01 PM   #141
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Not transphobic at all, don't be silly.
The fact you don't hear his disdainful tone speaks volumes. He only takes his time to describe the person's gender at all to portray them as someone who shouldn't be taken seriously. One thing is true though: I would have expected you to agree with him.

 
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Old Yesterday, 02:16 PM   #142
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He said nothing degrading about anyone's gender or sexuality. His brother (Spaceboy) is gay and he openly talks about supporting gay "rights"

You should listen to his conversation with Daniel Johns.

Who is Daniel Johns? https://open.spotify.com/episode/1tR...SJaV7GDWTHJDSw

 
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Old Yesterday, 02:23 PM   #143
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He was generally supportive of gay rights too when he threatened to break a trans woman's legs because he was afraid people would call him gay.

 
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Old Yesterday, 02:27 PM   #144
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Billy is supportive of queer people as long as he has nothing against us individually. As soon as we step out of line, even if for entirely unrelated reasons, he will at best sarcastically describe your presentation and at worst threaten physical violence and financial ruin.

 
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Old Yesterday, 02:38 PM   #145
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He was generally supportive of gay rights too when he threatened to break a trans woman's legs because he was afraid people would call him gay.
Cause it's very reasonable to expect a 18 yo in 1985 to react very grown up to that situation. Right.

 
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Old Yesterday, 07:10 PM   #146
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No but it is reasonable for a person writing about it 20 years later to mention how terrible they were for doing it

 
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Old Yesterday, 08:06 PM   #147
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10 years later and I still only like the Special K song. 101%

 
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Old Today, 09:42 AM   #148
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I always skip the first song but apart from that I quite like the album. I haven't been able to make it all the way through the first listen of any album he has put out since it, solo or otherwise.

 
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Old Today, 10:09 AM   #149
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Quote:
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i still can't tell if it's meant to be the cereal [a la 'butter my toast'] or drug

i'm not sure which is lamer. neither make sense
Not sure if anyone answered you seriously yet, but it's a reference to the cereal, which had a tagline about being 101% of several vitamins. So yeah, very lame. And this is my favorite song on this album. Yikes.

 
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Old Today, 10:25 AM   #150
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Also, regarding pronouns, nobody in 2011 said "he/she" or "it" even though the conversation hadn't really opened up in the mainstream yet. That was just as much as an asshole move then as now, there's no ignorance at play, unfortunately.

 
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