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Old 04-05-2016, 10:58 AM   #331
Elphenor
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Apparently this thing called a MXR Blue Box is key to everything Roland Howard plays, guitarist of The Birthday Party

That glitch fuzz synth sound

Probably the next pedal I'll buy

 
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Old 04-06-2016, 02:18 AM   #332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poots View Post
Very interesting read, thank you.

I always figured that Billy put the compressor after the JMP-1 preamp. I don't know where I read that, but that's what I've thought for years.

JMP1 --> Alesis 3630 -->Mesa Strategy 500

Of course I could be completely wrong. I've never really used much rack gear.
It could be that way. I just applied my typical placement to it, and haven't tried it the other way for many years.

I think using compression after the preamp distortion would box in the high-gain sound, make the fizz less broad, and I'm not sure that's what I'm hearing on tracks like ToaSE and Bodies. But perhaps I'll check it out.


Found an interview with Billy saying what you said.

http://www.starla.org/articles/crsh4_96.htm

Quote:
BILLY CORGAN: On much of the album, I used my old 1984 Marshall JCM 800 100-watt top, which is my favorite amp; it's on every Pumpkins record. I bought the amp with a 4x12 bottom-I don't even know what kind of speakers are in it-and used the bottom for most of the guitar tracks. My other main rig is the Marshall JMP-1 rack preamp, which goes into an Alesis compressor and then into a mesa is its "half amp" thing, which allows you to cut the wattage in half. That helps the way the sound hits the power section of the amp and gives it a certain kind of compression, which sounds really good. I like the amp's "presence" control, too. Power amps don't give you much in the way of controls a lot of the time. But I don't use the Mesa in stereo because I think stereo guitar sounds like shit.

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Old 04-06-2016, 03:22 PM   #333
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I'm too afraid to learn too much about gear because the more I know about it, the less satisfied I'll be with what I have, and the more I'll want to buy new shit. Ignorance is blisser than poverty.

 
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Old 04-06-2016, 08:02 PM   #334
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i have never owned an amp or pedals.
i just connect into guitar rig\revalver\multiple plugins on my computer.
pretty weird huh

like, i once played this really fine mesa boogie at someone's house, and i was like, MAN this sounds fucking great

 
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Old 04-06-2016, 09:33 PM   #335
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Old 04-07-2016, 01:59 AM   #336
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I love pedals, can't get enough of them.

Still, I try to keep my sights low and only get inexpensive ones. Don't think I'd buy one for more than $200. There are some expensive ones that look cool as fuck (Hexe reVOLVER, Earthquaker Devices Rainbow Machine), but I can't justify spending the dough.

 
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Old 04-07-2016, 03:15 AM   #337
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But I try to not learn more about amps or else I'll learn that my cheap amp sucks because right now I think it's fine.

Also, I don't even want to know more about rackmounts or whatever, or else I'll want one.

 
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Old 04-08-2016, 09:34 AM   #338
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I finished building an MXR Distortion II pedal clone just yesterday, and this really is the MCIS pedal.

It isn't a conventional distortion, and has an intense saturated grittiness to its main distortion sound, which I didn't previously recognize while listening to MCIS, and which I hadn't really noticed in listening to DII pedal demos online. Though, after playing with the pedal a short while, it clicked with my impressions of the recorded MCIS sound, and listening to MCIS now, my perception has re-calibrated to account for what I know of the DII sound more precisely.

Listening to the album, my perception of the distortion sound was that it is very smoothish - and while those qualities are there, there is actually a lot of micro-grit going on in the pedal that I previously hadn't entirely tuned in to. My impression of what the album's guitar sound was, beneath all the layers, was idealized, though the reality doesn't take away from my impression, but gives me a new way of hearing the album, if I want to think about it while listening.

The DII has two gain stages, with independent knobs for each of them. One is like the pedal's primary distortion, set by using the output level and gain level knobs, and then there's a knob called resonance, which adds a huge amount of muddy low end to whatever else the pedal is already set for. In many settings, the resonance knob is just way too much and not practical. In fact, to make the resonance stage practical, the output level and gain level need to be tapered, a lot, and having these two things simultaneously cranked while increasing the resonance even a tiny, tiny bit will douse the whole sound in unpleasant extreme low-end bloat. But the resonance can be very useful if the gain level is turned mostly down, and the output level is kept moderate, or if using some other conservative balance between the output and gain levels is used.

Judging from of my experience, it's a unique distortion pedal, and it's also a somewhat unbalanced distortion pedal that can easily produce awful sounds if the conditions that the resonance knob places upon the other knobs are not known before using it. It also doesn't play particularly nice with lots of gain-stacking from multiple pedals, which is something I'm used to doing. And, at least in my current setup, it somewhat-easily sends the treble part of the guitar sound into cacophonically-garbled spectrums, if too many gain stages are stacked in the signal chain.

But, it is also highly versatile pedal, once its rules are recognized. And, together with the JMP-1 preamp, it performs everything from BWBW, to the You're All I've Got Tonight cover, to Here is No Why, New Wave A to G, and most of the rest of the gritty and heavy stuff that's heard within the Gravity demos and on the MCIS album.

Using the right settings, it also really helps to bring out that sizzle that's head on BWBW, and a characteristic which is a part of the JMP-1 sound, but which gets brought more to the forefront to different degrees with different pedals. That sizzle is one of the things that I especially love about the JMP-1, and I've been using a combo of a boost, and a BOSS Metal Zone to emphasize it in my rig. The DII pedal can emphasize that sizzle in a different manner than how I've been doing it, and it's a great alternate take on the quality, to what I already have been getting.

A bit of an example of what I call that sizzle can be heard as the note is being held, in this live BWBW performance: https://youtu.be/Gd7CYfgSDk8?t=73

The DII has a strong hollowed-out bite to its sound, which is a strong form of that crispiness quality that I said I liked about the 3630 and 3632 output boost influence. That bite can be noticeably heard here: https://youtu.be/Gd7CYfgSDk8?t=4 ... and also in the BWBW intro on the album, and particularly in many places in the MCIS demos.


So, the Distortion II is pretty unique in the type of distortion it creates, in its crunchy bite, in it having dual gain stages that can be blended, and also in its capability to easily create many awful sounds due to bad dialling in or simply using it with particular other pedals and settings in a setup. Most pedals sound usable for most of their settings, whereas the DII has usable ranges and combinations, while other configurations are just avoidable zones. So the DII is unconventional that way, but it also creates a special variety of great sounds when its parameters are set right.

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Old 04-08-2016, 09:04 PM   #339
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Thanks, he/she/it for these bitchin reviews and analyses

I'm curious what guitar/pickups you're using to demo all these? I'd imagine humbucks vs single coils would make a considerable difference especially for the gain/distortion effects

 
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Old 04-09-2016, 07:04 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by Run To Me View Post
Thanks, he/she/it for these bitchin reviews and analyses

I'm curious what guitar/pickups you're using to demo all these? I'd imagine humbucks vs single coils would make a considerable difference especially for the gain/distortion effects
No prob.

I have no actual humbucker guitars to test, though my main electrics are a '57 strat reissue with Blue/Silver/Red Lace Sensors, and a strat I custom-designed that has Blue/Silver Lace Sensors in the neck and middle positions, and then one of the BC Dimarzio's in the bridge position.

Between the two, the custom strat, which has lots of things that don't come on Fender strats (stainless steel frets, graphtech nut, double-expanding truss rod, heavier wood), actually sounds more innately like the SP strats - the Dimarzio pickup aside. I'm also going to replace the neck on the '57 reissue when I'm able to afford it, with a custom one. I really don't like nickel frets anymore (they're tough to play and do string-bends on, compared to stainless steel or gold frets, and they wear down and eventually need work or replacing), and a complete fret replacement job costs almost as much as a completely new neck from Warmoth - which I can tailor to personal taste perfection.

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Old 04-12-2016, 12:15 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by Poots View Post
Maybe I've missed it in the above he/she/it, but are running the JMP1 through a Mesa Strategy 500? If not, what is your power source?
I'm playing through a Strategy 500, and it has some great tone-shaping features, but I think that the familiar SP character can be had with other power sources.

This sounds markedly close to me, with just the JMP-1 and 3630, into the effects loop of a practice amp: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KK6JqvY3oM

 
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Old 04-12-2016, 12:26 AM   #342
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regarding the jmp-1/alesis: it was reported for years that it was the comp into the pre, and later reported as the opposite. to me it sounds more correct with the comp into the pre as you can add another layer of clipping by overdriving the input of the pre by increasing the output of the comp.

i used to run the output of the pre through the second channel of the comp, limit it a bit, and crank that output going into the power amp. from guitar, to comp, to pre, to comp, to power amp, you would have 6 places to control volume/gain, and dialing those in complementary of one another is the key to the mcis tone. yes, the pre amp and power amp get you close, the pickups get you a little closer, but the balancing of the different areas is really where you can carve out that 'distinct' sound

 
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Old 04-12-2016, 12:58 AM   #343
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what do you guys even get out of buying all that expensive gear in order to rip off some other guy's guitar tone? it's something i'll never understand

 
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Old 04-12-2016, 01:17 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by teh b0lly!!1 View Post
what do you guys even get out of buying all that expensive gear in order to rip off some other guy's guitar tone? it's something i'll never understand
My personal tone has included a platform of a JMP-1, the Strategy 500, and sometimes an Alesis 3630, for a decade - and I know precisely why each part of my rig is there, and every bit of what each part is contributing. At Netphoria, I can easily and contextually explain some of the gear that I have and know in terms of SP, but I don't see it as somebody else's tone, but as the kind tone which I love and play with. You really might as well go ask the millions of people who've played a Les Paul, into a Tube Screamer, into a JCM 800 what they get out of it. Or, you could be asking what someone playing the "Brown Sound" gets out of it.

Whatever gear you use, unless you're dropping thousands of dollars on new gear models, there are thousands of people who've used it first. And whatever combo of gear you use, there are many who've used it. Of all the possibilities out there, I think the gear we're discussing in this thread present some of the least-tread sounds.

I wonder what satisfaction a person would get from playing less than their desired sound, just to say that they didn't play gear combos that one particular person played for a 3-year period, 20 years ago. I'm guessing relatively little.

And what's more expensive is searching for your personal tone through budget and medium-tier gear purchases for a decade. In the end, you'll have budget-sounding tone, poor quality gear, and have burnt a lot of money, while having spent those years being non-satisfied, which likely will also have harmed your music productivity. I know, because I spent a lot of money on non-researched gear acquisitions before I became smart about how I approached things. And my tone now is definitively my tone, whereas the stuff before never produced a sense of being mine, because it didn't sound the ways that did what I wanted it to, or that I really felt great playing, or as big and powerful as I knew was out there. What makes it your tone is whether you feel right and natural expressing yourself through it, and not whether you hadn't heard someone else use that gear or similar before.

BTW, Billy self-admittedly "ripped off" his Siamese Dream rhythm tone from Catherine, and his nasal Micro-Synth SD-era lead tones from Michael Schenker (which inspired his nasal lead tones beyond SD). I think that Billy got something good out of playing that gear while he still did, and I'm guessing that you also probably got a lot out of him playing that gear, just as did tons of other people. It's just playing whatever sounds great to you.


Quote:
i have never owned an amp or pedals.
i just connect into guitar rig\revalver\multiple plugins on my computer.
That's like a million other people's tone right there. Though, I'll bet that whatever you get out of it isn't defined by that, and that when you're playing with it, you aren't thinking about how generic or unique it may or may not sound. Though I could be totally wrong, I think that, at face value, what you describe as your rig sounds like a much less-considered, and a less personal setup than that of people who go buy specific hardware, knowing exactly why they want that gear.

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Old 04-12-2016, 02:11 AM   #345
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legitimate points.
to play devil's advocate though, it's fine to use jmp-alesis-strategy and claim it's not ripping off somebody else, but if you go strat w/ lace sensors too it kind of seems too much.

but either way i only commented because i saw you were posting about how to get MCIS tones, not because you use similar gear.

anyway why don't you post some playing clips? let's hear it!

 
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Old 04-12-2016, 02:16 AM   #346
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oh i just read the last part of your post -
i won't go around saying that computer software is superior to actual amps, but the way i use my softwares provides me with nearly infinite tone shaping possibilities, far more than any 'real' basic setup could ever generate.

i combine different guitar amp sims, compressors, reverbs, delays (not necessarily guitar related plugins) and whatever else, and it gets me what i need. it would still be nice to own a VH4 and have people call the cops on me, but i don't see why i should spend so much money on it if i'm not a touring musician. i prefer buying guitars.

 
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Old 04-12-2016, 04:28 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by teh b0lly!!1 View Post
legitimate points.
to play devil's advocate though, it's fine to use jmp-alesis-strategy and claim it's not ripping off somebody else, but if you go strat w/ lace sensors too it kind of seems too much.
I've played a Lace Sensor strat even longer than I've had my current amps, and I'm continuing to play them not because it's just what I'm used to, but because I know the difference and the quality which the Lace Sensors bring, and I truly enjoy these over normal strat pickups. There could be pickups I'd like more, but this is one area where I'm not spending money to search out further, not without having more money than I have things that need it.

Also, the more a person becomes familiar with any gear, the more they relate to and engage that gear through their personal knowledge of it, and less through their association of that gear with somebody else - no matter how similar the gear is. Experience playing gear leads to the development of considerations regarding that gear, which becomes a person's conception of what that gear is.

I note that this seems like a thing only because we're talking about a sound that thus far is perceived as particular to an album, or a time-period for a band - whereas the employment of sounds that are ubiquitous is not considered a thing of note. So, the more the gear is communicated in a manner that is not referencing just one album or band, the less of a thing its employment will naturally become. There are very few tones that I appreciate just as tones, outside of their context of being used in songs, and I personally believe it would be tragic if some of my favourite tones were made strictly a thing of the past, not to be heard in any new music.

Also, a person can have whatever gear, and if they aren't making attractive music, it isn't going to count for much. But if they make great music, nobody is going to fault them for the gear they're playing it through, or fail to recognize the music as being great. So, I sort of think of the matter of what gear a person uses as moot - they're either a fan happily enjoying their interest, or they're creating something new from a familiar set of tools. And a person avoiding their desired sound out of an idealism is, to me, what sounds lame. If something's what you love, it would be a big insecurity to keep yourself from it based on what your presumption is of what others might think.


Quote:
but either way i only commented because i saw you were posting about how to get MCIS tones, not because you use similar gear.
Well, it's an SP forum. My tones are not exact SP tones, but I know how to get SP tones. And I think that detailing these things generates new and deeper awareness, and exactness within the SP community, which makes the knowledge-base of SP something more tangible than it is without greater SP details.

My rig is a lot more than just the items discussed in this thread, and I think I've actually bested the MCIS heavy sounds with my current setup, which means that I'm truly playing with my favourite sounds in the world, and that they are my own as much as anyone's is who didn't design their own gear's hardware. But MCIS is definitely the inspiration that got me there - just as is the situation with some of Billy's greatest tones emerging from sounds generated first by Catherine, Schenker, Black Sabbath, and more.

Quote:
anyway why don't you post some playing clips? let's hear it!
I have a couple of things posted in the "Thread for posting your musics" thread. I haven't yet recording anything heavy using my amp setup as it is now, though I will in time.


Here's one of the more recent things I recorded, though my sound and production skills have improved since, twice over:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwvhDtHu2TE

I'm working on a track that will show improvement in sound and production over this, though it still isn't representative of how my rig now sounds, because I've changed multiple things in my setup since I recorded its rhythm guitars - things which I think make the guitar still even bolder, and better.


Here's a recording from a year and a half ago, which I did largely using vst plugins (though a boost pedal is being used, along with the JMP-1, and its sizzle that I love is loudly present), and MIDI drums, before I took my amp rigs out of storage and started developing them further, with a lot more knowledge and experience:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfR-NcxG3kA

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Old 04-12-2016, 04:30 AM   #348
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I own and run a recording studio. When someone says 'I think I want ___ sound' it helps to know which road will take you there

 
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Old 04-12-2016, 08:03 PM   #349
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i'm going to be that asshole that chimes in and says something trite like "tone is all in your fingers/vibrato"

 
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Old 04-12-2016, 08:06 PM   #350
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But seriously attack and hand strength are not things to dismiss when considering tone. Everyone has heard flaccid playing through great equipment. 2 equally skilled guitarists can coax completely different sounds and feelings passing around the same guitar through the same setup, even playing the same song.

 
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Old 04-12-2016, 08:18 PM   #351
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I once read a blurb in one of those awful magazines like Guitar One or something arguing that Billy Corgan has one of the worst senses of tone of all rock guitarists, and it's because he holds the neck so poorly

 
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Old 04-12-2016, 08:20 PM   #352
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i completely agree (edit: @ slunken)

unfortunately i went to a guitar teacher that did not teach me this stuff. i only REALLY learned how important it is to attack the strings a certain way with your right hand to make the whole instrument come to life in like, the past 3 years

which also brings us to another thing that really influences the way you sound, and nobody ever talks about: the way you fall on the beat and keep time

 
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Old 04-12-2016, 08:46 PM   #353
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I bought a new strat today and some recording stuff

I'll try and upload something here this week

 
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Old 04-12-2016, 08:48 PM   #354
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cool what did you get

 
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Old 04-12-2016, 09:02 PM   #355
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I haven't been playing much electric the past few months. Been focusing back on bottleneck country blues guitar in open D. I'm also starting to learn ragtime style clawhammer fingerpicking in standard tuning, which was kind of a proto-blues style that lets you play chords and melodies all while holding the same shape.


 
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Old 04-12-2016, 09:06 PM   #356
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Just trying to get away from the flood of gear and wires for a while.

 
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Old 04-12-2016, 09:12 PM   #357
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A black Mexican Strat

It is a step up from my previous black made in china Strat

And a mic and the thing that lets you plug your guitar straight into your computer

 
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Old 04-12-2016, 09:15 PM   #358
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I have the problem of hating things that I play in the moment of playing them but I was going through stuff I just recorded on a cell phone and forgot about so it was like listening to someone else playing and it all sounded pretty good

I actually invested in the stuff because I'm looking for musicians online and I gotta send snippets of my playing so I gotta represent

 
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Old 04-13-2016, 02:25 AM   #359
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poots View Post
I think everybody starts out by trying to cop someone else's sound, then you eventually settle on something more yourself. How many people have bought a strat because Jimi Hendrix played one. You get the gear, you get their sound, then you branch out and do something else. I doubt that after a decade of the JMP1-Alesis-Strategy that he/she/it is still in there playing "Rat in a Cage" over and over. But you hear the sound you like, and you try to get that sound. It seems frustrating to have a favorite tone in your head and then just play something completely different just because you don't want to be accuse of ripping someone's sound.

Also, he/she/it, does your Strategy 500 have KT88s or 6550s?. I've been looking at these beasts on ebay. There seems to be an NOS for sale for the low low price of $3K.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mesa-Boogie-...wAAOxy9X5TXFse
Actually, though I probably hadn't played it since I was a teenager, when I completed building my MXR DII clone, one of the first things I did was play the rat-in-a-cage intro to see if this was the pedal I had been thinking it was. It was: Magic became real, and I was the album.

AFAIK, all Strategy 500s comes with 4x12AX7, 8x6L6, 4x6550. But I've replaced the 6550s on one side of mine with KT88s, after checking with Mesa if the tube values wouldn't harm the amp. They said the values of my KT88s were close enough that they should be compatible without any modification (though the risk was on me), and that's what I've been running. The amp is auto-biasing, so no extra work is needed for newly-installed tubes. I also only use the one side of the amp, and the other side is backup, in case a tube fails on the side I use.

That 3K price is ritzy, though that is a beautiful specimen of a legendary amp. I found mine (many years ago, though, and prices for them obviously have increased) for something like $600 - 800 in a Craigslist listing, that was in Oregon, while I live in BC, Canada. It came with an ADA MP-1, and a sturdy touring case, so it was a super deal. But I lied on the way through customs back into Canada, about picking the amp up from a friend, and the customs people found the phone number for the people I bought it from in my car and called them, and I ended up getting a $250 fine for not declaring the amp for taxes. Bummer way to spoil the great deal I had.

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Old 04-13-2016, 03:35 AM   #360
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I need to practice playing cleanly and muting the strings I'm not playing. I was screwing around on a bass the other day, and I never play bass, so I was struck by how much more obvious sloppy playing is on a bass guitar than on a guitar guitar, and how muddy and gross it sounds when you don't mute unplayed strings. I have the same sloppy technique on guitar, it's just less obvious, but the muddiness is still there.

It feels like I have to learn how to play the instrument all over again to learn proper string muting. Even when I break shit down really slowly, it's hard to get my hands at the correct angles so that the strings I don't want to sound don't sound.

Ugh why do I suck at everything I wish I had just one thing in the world I could do correctly and admirably actually I give up guitar forever nothing matters

 
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