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#91 |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
![]() Location: N3t4Euh Haus
Posts: 33,250
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![]() is information printed onto the Hubble horizon though? Over deep time the horizon of what a theoretical observer could see is going to shrink (although it's still going to expand for about 10 billion more years according to PBS spacetime). Eventually the whole sky will go dark except for our local cluster of galaxies where gravity can still overwhelm expansion.
you're right about it being encoded on the event horizon of a black hole, not the singularity. but a theoretical observer at a black hole could encounter all the information that has ever crossed the horizon on the surface, even though from the perspective of things passing the horizon they would be inside it. the Hubble horizon seems different, because that horizon will eventually not show all the information that has passed outside it unless you were moving toward the edge at the same speed as the expansion of space |
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#92 |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
![]() Location: N3t4Euh Haus
Posts: 33,250
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![]() then there's the issue of hawking radiation and the dissipation of black holes themselves, which I don't really get yet, but that's end of the universe stuff
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#93 |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
![]() Location: František! How's the foot of your turtle?
Posts: 32,904
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![]() you're end of the universe stuff
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#94 |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
![]() Location: all over the Internet
Posts: 44,584
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![]() SRSLY
and who can forgot about cosmological horizon. you guys say so much and nothing at all. ryan to way a more extreme degree because you know he only saves it for here. edit: actually, he may not. Last edited by yo soy el mejor : 08-01-2023 at 01:04 PM. |
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#95 |
Apocalyptic Poster
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Location: the former Elijah Moon
Posts: 2,144
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![]() All that space talk made my head sleepy. Who wants to talk about their caffeine intake? I've cut right back lately. I just have one coffee in the morning, and if I have tea/coffee after that I make it decaf. I found caffeine was giving me palpitations, and even a relatively low amount would make me a bit fidgety and on edge. I feel better having cut back.
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#96 |
Braindead
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Location: Ignore List
Posts: 17,230
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![]() I have one cup of coffee in the morning. No tea, no soda.
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#97 |
Braindead
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Posts: 17,230
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![]() I actually really only drink coffee and cans of seltzer. That's my problem, is the 4+ cans of La Croix every day. $$$
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#98 |
Shut the fuck up!
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Location: "Okay, white power feminist" - yo soy el mejor
Posts: 24,147
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![]() Trump indicted for conspiracy. When does the civil war start?
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#99 |
Shut the fuck up!
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Location: "Okay, white power feminist" - yo soy el mejor
Posts: 24,147
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![]() We've been getting out of the city on weekends to camp. Our dogs love it. And it's cooler in the Olympic mountains. This was Saturday.
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#100 |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
![]() Location: all over the Internet
Posts: 44,584
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![]() i went to a bar yesterday and the bartendress was rude and dismissive. whatever. i was sitting at the end of the end of the bar alone and eavesdropped on a conversation between a white guy and who i guess what the white female manager. it was all fun and jokes and even the rude bartendress got in on the conversation. i talked to the manager about stuff and she was nice.
later two latinos employees came in and her whole vocabulary changed and she was just nasty to them. she said that's how they joke and when one walked by she tried to say..''that's how we joke, right?'' and he just laughed awkwardly and kept going. i asked how the bar backs are tipped and if the money i left would only go to the bartender to decide how to tip those 'beneath' them (lots of places do this which is why good tipping servers get their plates and drinks out by busboys at a better rate than stingy jerks) i told her i noticed the difference in how she spoke to people and that it was obvious. and she could do whatever she wanted with the observation. honestly, the bar back got my water and my 2nd drink and he was nice to me. she showed me how they're tipped (bouncer gets 1% of tips...the lowest). i said i appreciated the transparency. so, i left the bartendress 0 dollars and gave 5 to each bar back and the bouncer as i left. i feel a little bad, but i will get over it. |
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#101 |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
![]() Location: N3t4Euh Haus
Posts: 33,250
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#102 |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
![]() Location: all over the Internet
Posts: 44,584
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#103 |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
![]() Location: N3t4Euh Haus
Posts: 33,250
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![]() no, you're pretty stupid
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#104 |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
![]() Location: all over the Internet
Posts: 44,584
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#105 |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
![]() Location: all over the Internet
Posts: 44,584
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![]() nah, you just don't like me but i would never want a person like you to like me
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#106 |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
![]() Location: N3t4Euh Haus
Posts: 33,250
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![]() great comeback
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#107 |
Braindead
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Location: Ignore List
Posts: 17,230
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![]() It's more of a horror movie driving behind it!
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#108 |
Shut the fuck up!
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Location: "Okay, white power feminist" - yo soy el mejor
Posts: 24,147
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#109 |
Braindead
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Location: Ignore List
Posts: 17,230
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![]() It's a great hobby and I'm jealous of people that can legitimately relax that way
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#110 |
Braindead
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Location: Ignore List
Posts: 17,230
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![]() Nah, I just hate bugs and require plumbing and AC at all times
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#111 |
Socialphobic
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Location: we are champions, bathed in the heat of a thousand flame wars in the grim future of the internet there is only netphoria
Posts: 12,477
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![]() I advise you to stay away from Paris, where I am in an AirBnB without aircon (after struggling to find one that did have it), and where they have composting toilets at their soon to be Olympic rowing venue.
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#112 |
Socialphobic
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Location: we are champions, bathed in the heat of a thousand flame wars in the grim future of the internet there is only netphoria
Posts: 12,477
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![]() But - no bedbugs this time! So still feeling lucky
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#113 |
Socialphobic
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Location: we are champions, bathed in the heat of a thousand flame wars in the grim future of the internet there is only netphoria
Posts: 12,477
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![]() OMG we bought this cheese that looked like camembert, but can’t be. We can’t bring ourselves to eat it. Every time we open the fridge door the smell escapes. It’s double bagged in two snaplock bags. It’s about as bad as durian for smell permeation
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#114 |
Braindead
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Location: Ignore List
Posts: 17,230
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![]() I will be staying away from Paris, lol
I hope you have a good time, though! Send me some pics |
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#115 |
seasonal depression
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Location: cafe de la danse
Posts: 11,825
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![]() don't know where else to complain about a slice of life annoyance such as this -- my idiotic apartment complex shut off the water at 7am today for scheduled repairs. SEVEN. got an email a week early. seven.
i'm waking up more like a normal person these days, around 8, but still. seven. that's too early for...basically everyone? it's a thursday! if only i were still 13 i'd be well chuffed |
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#116 |
seasonal depression
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Location: cafe de la danse
Posts: 11,825
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![]() i still only drink soda lol but of course i am craving a water atm
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#117 | ||
Socialphobic
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Location: we are champions, bathed in the heat of a thousand flame wars in the grim future of the internet there is only netphoria
Posts: 12,477
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![]() Quote:
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What kind of tourist are you, out of curiosity? Please drink water! |
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#118 |
Shut the fuck up!
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Location: "Okay, white power feminist" - yo soy el mejor
Posts: 24,147
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![]() Paris is awful. The worst place I've been in Europe in terms of high cost, crowds of horribel tourists, terrible service industry experience, etc.
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#119 |
Socialphobic
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Location: we are champions, bathed in the heat of a thousand flame wars in the grim future of the internet there is only netphoria
Posts: 12,477
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![]() We’ve had a pretty good run with most things in Paris and I’m enjoying myself. The heat here is nothing compared to summer in Sydney and we survived a few summers there without air con. But it is expensive and there are lots of tourists. We did the tourist stuff last time. This time we rented bikes from a place in the 15eme, not really a tourist area…and rode them through the city, Bois de Vincennes, and then along the Marne. It was the most beautiful ride I’ve ever done. And the ride from here to the venue is beautiful, along the Marne again. It’s semi-rural - big old farm houses and horses grazing. Our AirBnB is in Noisy-Le-Grand and going to the supermarket we’re the only tourists, everyone is really patient and helpful. There’s a lot of social housing around us and a significant migrant presence with a lot of Muslims and people of African descent. I really like it. Our apartment is brand new - there’s so much construction going on. We can see two cranes from our balcony and a building being constructed next door. I love it. Not the Eiffel Tower side of Paris.
We’re going to Euro Disney for my younger son. I am not looking forward to that. |
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#120 | |||
Minion of Satan
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Location: 🐚🦪⚪⚪⚪ 🐷🐖🐽
Posts: 9,248
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![]() Quote:
Because the Hubble Horizon is the boundary between particles moving subluminally and particles moving superluminally from an observer, it's true that the observer would only be able to observe particles beyond the horizon via light/signals emitted from them in the past before they crossed the horizon. I don't know if that observer would be able to use information on the interior boundary to describe the volume surrounding them outside (I think the principle only applies to bounded regions), but a different observer would have a different Hubble Horizon, and that observer might be able to observe (part of) a different observer's Hubble Horizon and see its information encoded on the surface. As for the Particle Horizon, anything outside of it cannot have a causal influence on you, so if something is outside of your horizon, you would have to be outside of its horizon as well, I think. So, I don't think there's any theoretical observer who could look at the surface of your horizon and gain info about you. Quote:
I don't know if the phenomena of things just "freezing" at the event horizon is related to the phenomena of information being encoded on its surface, though. I mean, it sounds plausible that they are related (the information is on the surface because all the shit just froze there), but I've never heard it expressed in that way, so maybe it's not. That's a cool connection to draw, though. I don't think I've thought of that. With the Hubble Horizon, even though we can never observe the current state of any particle outside of it, we can still observe the paststates of some of the particles via information reaching us that was emitted before the particle crossed the horizon. So, we can know about some things outside the Hubble Horizon, we just can't ever observe them as they are right now. The Particle Horizon, however, is the boundary between us and things that have not had time to reach us since the beginning of the universe. It represents the boundaries of the observable universe. Yeah, we just can't know about anything outside of it, even its past states. I don't think you can "move toward the edge" of the Hubble Horizon, because if you move, your whole Hubble Volume moves with you. Quote:
But near the event horizon of a black hole, the very curved space time pretty much eliminates some possibilities of where the particles could be, meaning that instead of the waves all cancelling each other out, now you have some waves that aren't canceled out, which means you have particles now. The region that these particles "form" in is larger than the event horizon, so they don't all fall back into the black hole. Many of them escape and fly away from the black hole. So, black holes radiate particles (mostly photons) the same way any physical body radiates thermal energy (like how a hot iron radiates visible light, or you and I radiate infrared light, or a star radiates all sorts of light). This is called "Hawking Radiation." Because the wavelength of light radiated by something is proportional to its temperature (the hotter the object, the shorter the wavelength), a black hole can be said to have temperature. But of course, due to conservation of energy, the energy for those particles that just emerge has to come from somewhere. A black hole isn't really an object so much as a region of spacetime, but that region has a lot of energy due to the high curvature of spacetime. So, the energy comes from the spacetime curvature, and the area of curvature is reduced as more Hawking Radiation is emitted to keep the energy balanced. This means that the black hole is shrinking. As it shrinks, it gets hotter and hotter, because even though the total curved area is smaller, the curvature itself gets bigger. So, it emits more and more radiation until the black hole is all out of energy and it disappears. So, even though nothing can "escape" from within a black hole, it can still spill out all it's energy and disappear. This takes so long that it has probably never happened to a single black hole yet (unless there are primordial black holes). Now here's where the paradox comes in. Quantum physics tells us that the information about a system is always preserved because wavefunction evolutions are deterministic. We call this "unitarity." Pretty much, every ending condition should have unique initial conditions, so you should be able to use the laws of physics to retrodict what the initial state of any wavefunction was. But it seems like Hawking Radiation would violate this. Say you had a black hole formed from 1,000 soloar masses of cupcakes, and another black hole formed from 1,000 solar masses of unsold Cyr CDs. An observer looking at these black holes would have no way of telling which is which, because they both have the same mass, and therefore surface area and temperature. They wouldn't be able to use any information to retrodict what the initial states that led to either black hole were. All the information exists, but its inaccessible inside. But if black holes radiate photons and spill all their information out, then that information looks the same for any black hole of the same mass, because it's determined solely by it's temperature, which is determined by its surface area, which is determined by its mass. The light radiated by both black holes would look exactly the same, so it would carry no information that could distinguish the cupcake black hole from the Oh So Bright black hole. But the information isn't "trapped inside" the black holes anymore, because they released it all and don't exist anymore. So, it looks like the information was just destroyed forever, and there exists no information hiding anywhere that could in principle be used to tell the holes apart. When two unique initial states devolve into the same final state, somebody who has access only to that final state cannot know which initial state it evolved from. The information to do that doesn't exist. So, it seems that Hawking Radiation defies what we think is a fundamental law of physics. Unless… the information about what fell into the black hole is always encoded on its surface, like the holographic principle supposes. Small correlations in variations of entropy on the surface would contain all the information required to tell the cupcake black hole and Cyr black hole apart. Which is unfortunate if true, because it means that even if we throw every SP2 album into a black hole, we can never erase them from the universe's memory. The holographic principle is a solution to the black-hole information paradox that allows unitarity to be preserved even if Hawking Radiation is real. Why do scientists think the holographic principle is plausible? AdS-CFT Correspondence. Pretty much, we have these two different theories that weren't created to explain the same thing. One is Anti-de Sitter space, meant to solve certain Einstein equations for spacetimes with negative curvature. The other is Conformal Field Theory, which is a group of quantum field theories with… well, I don't really know what they are about, but I know they have applications to condensed-matter physics. In the '90s, scientists realized that even though AdS describes the surfaces of volumes and CFT describes the volumes themselves, one can make equivalent statements using either theory. They correspond. You can say the same thing using a statement about surfaces in AdS as you can using a statement about the volumes they circumscribe using CFT. Which means that we can make all the same statements using just two dimensions rather than three. Like all the information within that 3D volume is imprinted or encoded or "projected" onto its 2D surface. Because the entropy of a black hole scales with its surface area rather than its volume, this seems to apply to black holes. So, it seems that all the information about the volume of a black hole exists on its surface, meaning that the information about its initial states and contents is always preserved. This is just stuff I've gleaned from pop-sci literature, so I do not know anything more in-depth about AdS or CFT, or know why the energy for Hawking Radiation has to come from the black hole and not something else, or… anything that requires actual deep understanding. I just know the simplified explanations for laymen like me. The account of Hawking Radiation I gave is at least less simplified and more accurate than the common version we mostly hear of "pairs of virtual particles forming near a black hole, and the negative-mass particle falling into the black hole and the positive-pair one escaping," but I'm sure the version I gave is still an illustrative metaphor. I think with this stuff, the only way to "truly understand" (if even then) is to know the math, because without the math, we just have to use familiar kinds of entities to describe an area of science that the math tells us is not populated by the familiar kinds of entities. I dunno, I'm kinda bummed that life is too short for me to ever seriously study this field and I will likely never have a real understanding of this stuff unless I decide to do another undergrad and graduate degrees and be a student until I'm 55. |
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