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Old 08-31-2008, 04:56 PM   #391
Gish08
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Originally Posted by Corganist View Post
Plus, in case anyone has forgotten, Barack Obama is the Democrat nominee for PRESIDENT. It's amazing to me that anyone voting for Obama can throw stones at McCain for putting Palin on the ticket because of her inexperience
You conservatives just don't get it. I'm fairly confident it's because you just don't want to.

McCain's message was that he is a man of experience and would surround himself with people who also offer much experience. Palin completely invalidates this claim. Why is this so hard for you people to understand? See, the question is ultimately not if Palin has experience; the question is why did McCain brag about bringing real experience to Washington, but then pick a #2 with even less than Obama? Romney, Ridge, Lieberman, Pawlenty, or even Jindal would have fallen in line with his experience message. Instead, once again, the straight talk express made a u-turn. And you guys called out John Kerry in 2004 for being inconsistent... McCain has seriously flipped on issues and positions more times than perhaps any other Presidential candidate in recent history.

McCain just enjoyed sneaking up on Obama in polls while he was on vacation, largely in part because his experience message was starting to stick; then he turned his back on it and went with someone who hasn't even been a governor for two years, and before that, was a mayor for an extremely small town and worked for the PTA. Obama on the other hand has a solid law background, was a community organizer, a member of the Illinois state senate from 1997-2004 (Republicans ALWAYS skip the state senate experience when they compare him to Palin, it's funny), and then went on to the US Senate.

And McCain dying while in office is NOT unlikely. The man has all kinds of problems, and initially said he wouldn't even run for President in 2008 because he'd be too old.

Found this to be pretty funny:

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Kerry
She's back there with the flat-earth caucus.
Haha.

What's most interesting about Palin is that it seems like the possibility of her winning over a significant amount of Hillary fans is not as good as many thought; her real strength is starting to show with evangelicals according to today's polling, a key part of the Republican party McCain has been having some trouble with.

It's too bad he didn't pick Lieberman like he wanted to. Election day would have been over before it even started. Obama would have won in a landslide.

Last edited by Gish08 : 08-31-2008 at 05:19 PM.

 
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Old 08-31-2008, 05:02 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by Corganist View Post
All the hand wringing is getting a little ridiculous here.

Sure, the pick does come off as more pandering than anything else. But that being the case, shouldn't Republicans be the ones getting their panties in a bunch over it? What do Democrats have to be angry about if her being on the GOP ticket is a transparent political ploy? Is it because you're afraid it just might work? That hardly seems a legitimate reason to be outraged. What I'm seeing is jealousy, nothing more.

Plus, in case anyone has forgotten, Barack Obama is the Democrat nominee for PRESIDENT. It's amazing to me that anyone voting for Obama can throw stones at McCain for putting Palin on the ticket because of her inexperience. If Palin's inexperience is truly a problem, it'd only manifest itself in the unlikely event that something would happen to McCain in the next four years. If Barack Obama is elected President, his inexperience is going to be plaguing us in 4-5 months. If lack of experience is such a killer, then why not go with the option that delays the inexperienced person from taking office as long as possible?
Dems seem to be thrilled about the pick. I for one am excited that republicans blown up their only credible argument against obama.

 
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Old 08-31-2008, 05:17 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by Gish08 View Post
What's most interesting about Palin is that it seems like the possibility of her winning over a significant amount of Hillary fans was not as good as many thought; her real strength is starting to show with evangelicals according to today's polling, a key part of the Republican party McCain has been having serious problems with.

What is there to assume that wasnt the main intent to begin with? I've mainly seen the notion of winning over Hillary people presented by Obama supporters. Makes more sense than them thinking woman = locks up womens vote. Any defectors are just a plus.

Last edited by Future Boy : 08-31-2008 at 05:24 PM.

 
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Old 08-31-2008, 05:23 PM   #394
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You conservatives just don't get it.

McCain's message was the he is a man of experience and would surround himself with people that are also experienced. Palin completely invalidates this claim. Why is this so hard for you people to understand?
I think most conservatives understand that this VP pick makes it harder for the McCain campaign to put as big a premium on experience as they could before. And I think most of us are willing to deal with the good and the bad of that. What I don't understand is why it matters so much to Democrats all the sudden.

I'd understand it if it was an "Aha, John McCain really doesn't care about experience afterall!" kind of thing...even though that really does the Dems no favors because it still doesn't negate his massive experience advantage over Obama. It's just another flip-flop to add to McCain's pile. But that hasn't really been the main criticism that I've been seeing. What I've been seeing is "OMG, how can the GOP put someone that inexperienced 'one heartbeat away' from the Presidency?" It's one thing to point out that McCain might have gone back on some promise of surrounding himself with experience, but it's quite another thing for someone supporting Barack Obama to call anyone out for lack of qualification...and the latter is what I've seen more of.

Quote:
And McCain dying while in office is NOT unlikely. The man has all kinds of problems, and initially said he wouldn't even run for President in 2008 because he'd be too old.
The guy could live to be 90 or 100 for all anyone knows. Regardless, my point stands. Even if McCain is as frail as you want to believe, the choice is between putting an inexperienced person in the office in January or putting in a slightly less inexperienced person (by virtue of serving as VP) at some undetermined time in the next four years. If experience is THAT big of an issue, then I don't see how you can advocate for the former.

Last edited by Corganist : 08-31-2008 at 05:32 PM.

 
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Old 08-31-2008, 05:31 PM   #395
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What is there to assume that wasnt the main intent to begin with? I've mainly seen the notion of winning over Hillary people presented by Obama supporters. Makes more sense than them thinking woman = locks up womens vote. Any defectors are just a plus.
Exactly. I think that the pick was made more to appeal to the base (which it has done) than some kind of Hail Mary to bring Hillary voters over en masse. There aren't enough girl-power, hear-me-roar, Hillary voters who just want to vote for a woman to base a major campaign decision like that around. Any Hillary voters that vote for McCain because he has a woman on the ticket are just a bonus on top of what gains have been made in solidifying the base.

 
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Old 08-31-2008, 05:48 PM   #396
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Palin's experience is so miniscule that it's completely valid for dems to pick on it. Sure, Obama doesn't have as much "experience" as McCain, but Palin is even less. You can nitpick or brush away the years he spent on the state legislature, but at least Obama, for over the last year and a half, has successfully run a national, multi-million dollar campaign, organizing hundreds if not thousands of workers, and beaten very "experienced" opponents. Sarah Palin has not done anything remotely like that on a grand national scale.

 
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Old 08-31-2008, 05:48 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by Corganist View Post

The guy could live to be 90 or 100 for all anyone knows. Regardless, my point stands. Even if McCain is as frail as you want to believe, the choice is between putting an inexperienced person in the office in January or putting in a slightly less inexperienced person (by virtue of serving as VP) at some undetermined time in the next four years. If experience is THAT big of an issue, then I don't see how you can advocate for the former.


The difference is people got a CHOICE to put Obama in the position of president. Repubs chose McCain, and here he makes this completely fucked up choice for VP and it wasn't a choice given to the people. He was voted in for his long term record of good decisions, people expected the VP decision to fall in a similar line. We're 65 days away from the election and there's some stranger on the ticket. Whether or not Repubs / Independents actually WANT Palin as president, they may feel cornered into voting for McCain anyways still. Biden's choice only strengthens Obama's experience, he was a man who had supporters for the Presidential slot on his own and has a history.

Would you have voted for Palin in the primaries? Would you have thought her a credible ready choice? Would millions of other people have agreed? To ask someone with no experience or previous thought of doing something like this just seems so un thought out.

 
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Old 08-31-2008, 05:50 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by Debaser View Post
Palin's experience is so miniscule that it's completely valid for dems to pick on it. Sure, Obama doesn't have as much "experience" as McCain, but Palin is even less. You can nitpick or brush away the years he spent on the state legislature, but at least Obama, for over the last year and a half, has successfully run a national, multi-million dollar campaign, organizing hundreds if not thousands of workers, and beaten very "experienced" opponents. Sarah Palin has not done anything remotely like that on a grand national scale.

THIS

 
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Old 08-31-2008, 05:52 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by Corganist View Post
I think most conservatives understand that this VP pick makes it harder for the McCain campaign to put as big a premium on experience as they could before. And I think most of us are willing to deal with the good and the bad of that. What I don't understand is why it matters so much to Democrats all the sudden.
It matters so much since a huge part of the reason why McCain keeps sneaking up on Obama in polls is BECAUSE enough people bought his experience message. This pick makes him look like a complete moron to anyone who isn't a soccer mom who loves her guns and Jesus.

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I'd understand it if it was an "Aha, John McCain really doesn't care about experience afterall!" kind of thing...
He surely must not. He's very old, and may not even live another four to eight years longer. I don't mean that as an insult.

Compare this to Obama (who has more than Palin) and Biden (who has just as much if not more than McCain), two people who I am sure will talk to one another on a daily basis about how to make decisions. If something, as awful as it would be, happened to Obama, Biden literally would be able to take over immediately.

And Obama doesn't get enough credit. He has experience, just not Washington insider experience. He's a well-educated man with a fantastic law background (and most importantly has a deep understanding of CONSTITUTIONAL law), who forms his opinions and policies carefully and has much previous political experience before his US Senate run. He can debate well, knows how to communicate to his audience and knows how to run a campaign. Sarah Palin quite frankly does not. She doesn't even have a degree in anything that really pertains to the meat and potatoes of what goes on in the White House (journalism -- come on, that's for the Press Secretary).

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...even though that really does the Dems no favors because it still doesn't negate his massive experience advantage over Obama. It's just another flip-flop to add to McCain's pile.
And some of these flip-flops are going to catch up to him, especially in the fall if the Obama campaign finds that they need to be more aggressive. Obama's lack of experience, particularly foreign policy experience, is kind of hushed with Biden on the ticket. McCain on the other hand is taking away from his own experience message while Obama is strengthening his. I can easily see the Obama campaign putting emphasis on Barack dealing mostly with social issues, while Biden basically serves as a top advisor to foreign policy and military issues, and the two sharing responsibility when it comes to economics. I'm not saying this is how it will/should be, as many other people will be involved when it comes to those things -- but when you are trying to sell your message to voters, I think that will work very well.

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What I've been seeing is "OMG, how can the GOP put someone that inexperienced 'one heartbeat away' from the Presidency?"
Well, in these times, it is pretty important to have a VP who really can take over if something bad happens. Palin on the other hand didn't even know what a VP does. And likely still doesn't.

Quote:
It's one thing to point out that McCain might have gone back on some promise of surrounding himself with experience, but it's quite another thing for someone supporting Barack Obama to call anyone out for lack of qualification...and the latter is what I've seen more of.
You're looking into that way too much. We're just calling a spade a spade, man.

And, truthfully, McCain's age worries me should he be elected, especially since his VP is -- no offense to respectable women out there -- a complete airhead.

Quote:
The guy could live to be 90 or 100 for all anyone knows. Regardless, my point stands. Even if McCain is as frail as you want to believe, the choice is between putting an inexperienced person in the office in January or putting in a slightly less inexperienced person (by virtue of serving as VP) at some undetermined time in the next four years. If experience is THAT big of an issue, then I don't see how you can advocate for the former.
It's only that big of an issue because McCain made it that big of an issue. Obama's surrogates are simply pointing that out, as they SHOULD be. Don't you see?

Last edited by Gish08 : 08-31-2008 at 06:06 PM.

 
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Old 08-31-2008, 05:55 PM   #400
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Originally Posted by Corganist View Post
All the hand wringing is getting a little ridiculous here.

Sure, the pick does come off as more pandering than anything else. But that being the case, shouldn't Republicans be the ones getting their panties in a bunch over it? What do Democrats have to be angry about if her being on the GOP ticket is a transparent political ploy?
Because the shit the Republicans try to pull is outrageous and infuriates me

 
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Old 08-31-2008, 05:57 PM   #401
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When asked a year ago if she thought the surge would work, Palin said she didn't know because she hadn't really been following the war.

 
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Old 08-31-2008, 06:02 PM   #402
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Originally Posted by Debaser View Post
Palin's experience is so miniscule that it's completely valid for dems to pick on it. Sure, Obama doesn't have as much "experience" as McCain, but Palin is even less. You can nitpick or brush away the years he spent on the state legislature, but at least Obama, for over the last year and a half, has successfully run a national, multi-million dollar campaign, organizing hundreds if not thousands of workers, and beaten very "experienced" opponents. Sarah Palin has not done anything remotely like that on a grand national scale.
Campaigning is not governing. Bush II disproves this argument. David Axelrod should really be president if that's the case.

 
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Old 08-31-2008, 06:05 PM   #403
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Originally Posted by TuralyonW3 View Post
When asked a year ago if she thought the surge would work, Palin said she didn't know because she hadn't really been following the war.
Well I don't think Bush or the maverick really do either so this quote probably won't matter much.

 
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Old 08-31-2008, 06:22 PM   #404
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Just got back from a get together with some obnoxiously republican relatives. The general consensus amongst the females?

"Good for him for picking a woman."

 
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Old 08-31-2008, 06:33 PM   #405
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Originally Posted by beef curtains View Post
The difference is people got a CHOICE to put Obama in the position of president. Repubs chose McCain, and here he makes this completely fucked up choice for VP and it wasn't a choice given to the people. He was voted in for his long term record of good decisions, people expected the VP decision to fall in a similar line. We're 65 days away from the election and there's some stranger on the ticket. Whether or not Repubs / Independents actually WANT Palin as president, they may feel cornered into voting for McCain anyways still.
Some might, but that's no different than any election. I doubt there's ever been a ticket where some people didn't have to hold their nose and vote for it despite who is on the ticket. But the main point is still that most people who value experience aren't going to put more focus on the inexperience of the VP candidate than they are on inexperience at the top of the ticket. There are all sorts of other reasons that having Palin on the ticket may not help McCain, but experience isn't gonna make or break things I don't think. Not with Obama vying to take office in 5 months.

Quote:
Biden's choice only strengthens Obama's experience, he was a man who had supporters for the Presidential slot on his own and has a history.
If anything, you could make the argument you're making against the Palin pick even more soundly against Obama picking Biden. The people had a choice to express wide support for Biden being the President, and they overwhelmingly rejected it. So basically, Obama went expressly against the choice of the people. And I think the deafening silence and lack of fanfare behind the Biden pick backs this argument better than your argument against Palin, who GOP voters have reacted overwhelmingly positive to despite having no "choice" in the matter.

Quote:
Would you have voted for Palin in the primaries? Would you have thought her a credible ready choice? Would millions of other people have agreed? To ask someone with no experience or previous thought of doing something like this just seems so un thought out.
Just on paper, I think Palin would have done well if she ran. In a primary season where conservatives were so disaffected and desperate that they were flocking to guys like Mike Huckabee and Mitt Romney, someone with Palin's conservative credentials probably could have done some damage if she handled herself well enough, even with her lack of experience. And again, the positive reaction from the GOP base thus far seems to bear that out. It remains to be seen though how well she handles herself on the campaign trail. That'll be the big factor.

 
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Old 08-31-2008, 06:35 PM   #406
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Old 08-31-2008, 06:37 PM   #407
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Campaigning is not governing.
This.

I saw once what the ratio of time Obama has spent either campaigning or preparing to campaign vs. time he's spent governing over the past 10 years. I'll have to see if I can find it again, but the gist of it was that he's spent much more time telling everyone what he's going to do than he has actually doing it when he's gotten the chance.

 
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Old 08-31-2008, 07:06 PM   #408
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no black people in alaska, fyi

 
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Old 08-31-2008, 07:17 PM   #409
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doubt she's seen many Mexican migrant workers either

 
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Old 08-31-2008, 07:19 PM   #410
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she'd be a fine president

 
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Old 08-31-2008, 07:57 PM   #411
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tell it to puffy!

he's so.... well-spoken


 
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Old 08-31-2008, 07:57 PM   #412
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Originally Posted by Future Boy View Post
Campaigning is not governing. Bush II disproves this argument. David Axelrod should really be president if that's the case.
Sorry, that may sound right at first blush, but it's bullshit.

Bush/Rove campaigned hard on ideological, divisive principles. Only going for their base, and fuck the rest. These same principles are the exact same way he governed and that's why the country has suffered.

Obama has built from the ground up a national network reaching out to voters on both sides. Though his rhetoric is liberal, his actions are pragmatic and compromising (much to your displeasure).

 
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Old 08-31-2008, 08:08 PM   #413
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"campaigning" vs. "governing" or "executive experience" vs. "legislative experience" are just arbitrary labels, obfuscating the real argument.


publius:
Quote:
One of the more frustrating arguments I’ve been hearing is that Palin has more experience than Obama — in particular, more “executive” experience. I’m sorry, but that argument is absurd — though it’s not immediately obvious why. After all, she was a mayor and governor, while Obama wasn’t. The problem then is with the whole idea of comparing Palin and Obama’s relative experience under these particular conceptual categories — e.g., “executive” vs. “legislative.” Those categories just aren’t very meaningful here.

In this debate, people have been focusing on the “type” of experience rather than on the nature of their relative experiences. In simpler terms, what matters is not so much the arbitrary label, but the size, scope, and stress of their relative experience.

For instance, let’s say Apple is deciding whether to hire me or Bill Clinton to be its CEO. And let’s say I was a manager at a Burger King, while Clinton never worked in business. In this respect, I have more “business experience” than Bill Clinton — in a world where arbitrary labels rule, I win. But I’m clearly less capable of running a major transnational corporation than he is. That’s because the nature of Clinton’s experience makes him a better fit — he’s led an executive branch and two presidential elections under extreme scrutiny and has become knowledgeable of, well, everything.

That’s sort of what’s going on with Palin and Obama. Yes, if you elevate the arbitrary category of “executive” above all else, then she has more experience. But if you look at the nature of that experience, this argument falls apart.

Palin was mayor of a town that has a fraction of the people present at an NFL game. She was also governor of a thinly-populated state — following an anti-incumbent reaction against corruption — that doesn’t have to struggle as much with limited budget revenues because of the state’s natural resources. She’s never been in the national spotlight, never operated under extreme stress, and just hasn’t had the type of responsibilities that even a governor of say Florida or California would have had.

Obama, by contrast, has had a much tougher time. He became a state legislator by navigating the local politics of a major urban center. He’s been a Senator. And most importantly, he’s been under unrelenting scrutiny for years — managing a presidential campaign masterfully and knocking off a Democratic President’s financial and political machine.

He’s also had to master the national spotlight, and respond to a million different type of questions. He’s also developed extensive policy positions and has defended them in debates and to the public for years. And he’s never lost his cool, showing calm judgment coupled with far-sighted strategic planning (e.g., early organizing, hesitancy to chase the news cycle).

In short, Palin’s “experience” trumps Obama’s only by elevating arbitrary categories over underlying factual realities. Now, it might be different if she had governed a state of many millions (like Reagan) and had won re-election. But she hasn’t — and the idea that calling everything “executive” trumps Obama’s accomplishments just doesn’t work.

UPDATE: In the comments, TP makes the astute point that Palin actually has more "executive" experience than McCain, under this line of thinking.

 
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Old 08-31-2008, 08:36 PM   #414
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Bush/Rove campaigned hard on ideological, divisive principles. Only going for their base, and fuck the rest. These same principles are the exact same way he governed and that's why the country has suffered.
If memory serves in 2000 he ran on the whole compassionate conservative, uniter not a divider, bringing integrity back type of thing. Which is why the way he governed was such a joke in comparison. The republican party has used conservative issues on a state by state basis to drive out their base to vote. In '04 he ran on national security, not a rabid conservative. If he actually ran based on how he governed he wouldnt have won. If that were true then the country is far too conservative for any Dem to have a chance.

The notion that any major presidential candidate actually handles or is heavily involved in the day to day running of a campaign is a bit misguided. If so, the candidate which has won more campaigns for higher office has the most/best experience. It's a bad thing to point to for executive experience, regardless of candidate.

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Originally Posted by Debaser View Post
Though his rhetoric is liberal, his actions are pragmatic and compromising (much to your displeasure).
Actually my displeasure is in him not being liberal enough, but whatever, I'm not getting into that again.

 
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Old 08-31-2008, 08:43 PM   #415
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Actually my displeasure is in him not being liberal enough, but whatever, I'm not getting into that again.
That's exactly what I meant.

 
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Old 08-31-2008, 08:50 PM   #416
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Originally Posted by Future Boy View Post
If memory serves in 2000 he ran on the whole compassionate conservative, uniter not a divider, bringing integrity back type of thing. Which is why the way he governed was such a joke in comparison. The republican party has used conservative issues on a state by state basis to drive out their base to vote. In '04 he ran on national security, not a rabid conservative. If he actually ran based on how he governed he wouldnt have won. If that were true then the country is far too conservative for any Dem to have a chance.

The notion that any major presidential candidate actually handles or is heavily involved in the day to day running of a campaign is a bit misguided. If so, the candidate which has won more campaigns for higher office has the most/best experience. It's a bad thing to point to for executive experience, regardless of candidate.
2000 was a weird year when nobody fucking cared about the election. Plus, Bush didn't even get the most votes! Uniter, eh?

Your response seems to think that I'm trying to argue that Obama has a lot of great experience. I'm not. I'm only arguing Sarah Palin's experience pales in comparison to Obama's. So any hand-wringing of Obama's experience, should on the same basis, be many times worse on Palin. That is all when it comes to Palin. When it comes to McCain, it shows how bad his judgement is. It's clear that Palin wasn't even properly vetted. Which just highlights a reckless decision. Impulsive and decided last minute. These are not qualities I want in my president.

 
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Old 08-31-2008, 09:08 PM   #417
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I dont disagree with that. I guess I misunderstood what you were saying with "Obama, for over the last year and a half, has successfully run a national, multi-million dollar campaign, organizing hundreds if not thousands of workers, and beaten very "experienced" opponents. Sarah Palin has not done anything remotely like that on a grand national scale."

As for vetting, I thought he offered it the sunday before the convention started, I wouldnt call that last minute. I think they got what they wanted out of the pick. Energize the base, take the focus off Obama's speech. What makes me question his judgment is that he wanted Joe Lieberman. He wouldn't even get him the base.

 
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Old 08-31-2008, 09:10 PM   #418
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Hey, this Palin bitch is incredibly backwoods but she's at least a looker, right?


 
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Old 08-31-2008, 09:12 PM   #419
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Hey man, nice shot.

 
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Old 08-31-2008, 09:13 PM   #420
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Kind of the opposite of a post/av, too.

 
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McCain hires Terry Nelson as campaign manager; emerging as establishment candidate Effloresce General Chat Archive 50 12-08-2006 02:37 PM
McCain gearing up to run, it seems... Effloresce General Chat Archive 23 11-14-2006 02:34 PM


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