Israel-Palestine Conflict Thread

[ovary]

neigh

[Disco King]

If Israel is like other parliamentary systems, early elections are only called (1) when the government decides to call an election early, or (2) when the government loses the confidence of the legislature. That means either more than 50% of the legislature voted for a non-confidence vote, or less than 50% of the legislature voted for a bill that is automatically considered a confidence vote (here in Canada, the budget is always a confidence vote, so if the government loses that, the legislature is dissolved and there has to be an election). Either when a party has a legislative majority or has an artificial majority through being supported by another party/a coalition government, it's pretty much impossible to lose a confidence vote (unless the needed parties in the coalition decide to withdraw their support).

It's still always the parliamentarians themselves who are casting votes that decide who forms government and if an election will be called. Parliamentary system doesn't mean "the citizens themselves can decide to call an early election if enough of them are angry about something." Unless there's some special additional legislation to that effect, like recall votes or something.

[Disco King]

This is a simplified version because, in constitutional monarchies like Canada, technically it's the Governor General who decides who forms government and when to call an election, not the Parliamentarians. But their role is symbolic and, for all intents and purposes, it's the Parliamentarians.

But Israel is not a monarchy, so they don't have that extra wrinkle.

[MyOneAndOnly]

Every time i hear an American say we should have a Parliamentary system I think "do you really? Cause I don't think you know what that means."

It's much easier for a militant strident minority group/party to take over a government in a Parliamentary multi party system than it is in a Federal System like the US has.


Additionally, a big part of Likud's success controlling government is the collapse of the center left in Israel. Because no one party has a majority, Likud needs only to be the largest minorty party. They win 30% of seats and they get to run the government.

Imagine if for the past 50 years the Congress (both house and senate) and the Presidency had been ruled by the 30% or so of congress who identify as Evangelical Christian Nationalists. Dueling parties in the USA mitigates the power of aggressive minority factions in politics. It favors "rule of law" and makes Populist movements less likely to take over the government.

[MyOneAndOnly]

In the case of Israel it's also worth noting that for the last decade+ there has been no real significant or organized centrist party. That used to be the Labor Party in Israel. Which would have been roughly analogous to moderate Dems or old school NE moderate Republicans in the USA. But the Labor party fell apart after right wing extremist Jews killed Yitzak Rabin in 95.

There are lots of centrists in Israel. And there are many many parties, but no one of them has been able to top Likud's total in the last few elections.

[Disco King]

I think the phenomenon of having more small parties in the legislature and often needing coalition governments has more to do with Israel having proportional representation than with it being a parliamentary system. Canada also has a parliamentary system, but is essentially, like the US, a two-party system because we also have first-past-the-post rather than PR. FPTP usually leads to two-party systems due to people being incentivized to vote for the largest party somewhat close to them to avoid vote splitting.

I don't think either is necessarily better than the other between a parliamentary and presidential system. They're both just different ways of skinning the cat. They each intend to keep government accountable, but do it in different ways. In the presidential system, it's through the separation of powers. In the parliamentary system, it's through the cabinet needing the confidence of the legislature.

Between PR and FPTP, I actually prefer PR because it allows government to more accurately reflect the preferences or the people and allows every vote to count. It also allows people to vote for the party they actually like instead of having to vote for the lesser of evils. Historically, a left party would pretty much always win and the conservatives would rarely have a chance of forming government in Canada if we had PR because most people here are not conservative (right now is an exception because PP is for some reason very popular right now). Similar to in the U.S., the people tend to be more progressive than the government and the right wing would rarely have a chance if not for the winner-take-all system biasing things toward the voting minority.

But you do raise a good point about PR also allowing fringe parties into the legislatures. I mean, a bunch of European governments have legit fascists sitting in the legislature because a small portion of the population is always going to be fascist. And then sometimes a more moderate party needs to bring the fascists into a coalition in order to have enough support to form government. That sucks, but I guess I just wanna have enough faith in humanity that I think having government better reflect the will of the people will usually be a good thing, and the good people will tend to outnumber the authoritarian fringe.

[Toast]

There was an insurrection Saturday night.

Pro-Palestine protesters scream 'F*** Joe Biden' at White House fence in for 'March4Gaza'

WASHINGTON (TND) — A large, angry mob of pro-Palestinian protesters screamed and chanted “f*** Joe Biden” as they tried to rip down the fence around The White House on Saturday night. They threw what appeared to be water bottles and other containers at the fence, while chanting expletives over and over.

There are reports that some personnel were even evacuated from the grounds, because the protest started growing increasingly violent.

[smashingjj]

Ah, every protest is an insurrection now, since Jan 6 was called an insurrection i assume, and that was just a protest too?

Biden is handing the presidency firmly to the republicans though

[MyOneAndOnly]

I can't wait to see pro Hamas activists vote for Trump, who wants to nuke the middle east.

It would be funny if it wasn't a typical left wing self destructive move. Economy is good. Unemployment is low. "Let's give the country to fascists!"

[smashingjj]

economy good, unemployment low, the genocide is upon people we don't really want to exist anyway, what's the big deal?

[TuralyonW3]

1. 1 in every 100 Gazans have now been killed in the conflict, a full 1% (24 thousand out of 2.3 million). Bibi has said The Hague will not stop us, making clear his stance against any kind of international law.

2. 43% of US voters currently identify as independent in new poll

[MyOneAndOnly]

How many Jews have been killed by Hamas and Hezbollah? They're still bombing Israeli civilians.

[ovary]

maybe you should google it

[Machinist]

Originally Posted by MyOneAndOnly

How many Jews have been killed by Hamas and Hezbollah? They're still bombing Israeli civilians.

what the actual fuck is wrong with you

[smashingjj]

I think Israel shouldn't leave it at just killling everyone in Gaza, they should invade Lebanon too. And Iran. Pre-emptive self-defense.

[Machinist]

I had some anti-zionist thoughts as well. Turning myself into the closest Israeli embassy.

[ilikeplanets]

Originally Posted by smashingjj

I think Israel shouldn't leave it at just killling everyone in Gaza, they should invade Lebanon too. And Iran. Pre-emptive self-defense.

Not funny. And there's nothing pre-emptive about responding to the attack on October 7, which was accompanied by threats of and attempts at repeat attacks. Just to nip that train of thought in the bud.

[smashingjj]

Not funny no, sarcastic though. It's a suboptimal way of coping in the face of endless suffering and pointless atrocities.

It wasn't implied that it was pre-emptive, also.

[ilikeplanets]

I can't cope either. Normally I am numb by now, but not this time.

[MyOneAndOnly]

Originally Posted by smashingjj

I think Israel shouldn't leave it at just killling everyone in Gaza, they should invade Lebanon too. And Iran. Pre-emptive self-defense.

Lebanon/Hezbollah has been bombing Israel for months. Israel has every right to fight back. If they have to invade to stop Hezbollah, that's on Lebanon for allowing a terror group to murder Israelis

[smashingjj]

well so much for that scenario being just my sarcastic fantasy

[smashingjj]

I hear Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, maybe have a look there?

[smashingjj]

sorry

[Machinist]

Don't be.

[Toast]

Originally Posted by MyOneAndOnly

I can't wait to see pro Hamas activists vote for Trump, who wants to nuke the middle east.

What's your evidence that pro Hamas "activists" would ever vote for the bad orange man?

I'm trying to tread lightly, since I was threatened with a ban from "the powers that be."

[ilikeplanets]

Possibly because Biden publicly supports Israel? Trump won't support the Hamas-sympathizing crowd, though

[smashingjj]

Originally Posted by Toast

What's your evidence that pro Hamas "activists" would ever vote for the bad orange man?

I'm trying to tread lightly, since I was threatened with a ban from "the powers that be."

sup

[smashingjj]

yes I was fed up with the trolling and I can explain what I mean by that. it's very rare to see you make any sincere posts, it all comes across very sarcastic and with no other purpose than just riling people up. whenever someone responds to you or rebukes whatever misinformation you're usually sharing you never reply. this reinforces my interpretation that you were never here for any discussion in the first place, just for some, usually negative, attention that your posts are met with.

now that in itself is all fine and lots of people acted like that here over the years. but you're also choosing to act like that in topics like this. the post I deleted said If Israel is conducting a genocide on these savag-- uh, the Palestinan people, they're not doing a very good job of it. along with a graph of population growth in both Palestinians and Israeli territories between 1960 and 2020 and I could leave it and let people seriously reply to it, for instance that the question of genocide is about the situation that is unfolding now and not between 1960 and 2020, but that would be completely futile since you do not seem to be here for any sincere discussion.

that kind of behaviour when it gets incessant and also in topics where people are actually seriously discussing sensitive subjects was usually rewarded with a ban if the mods felt like it warranted it. and I do.

[smashingjj]

also the "apology" doesn't make it better:

I wholeheartedly apologize for my previous comments and hope Palestine takes what’s theirs. Please take into account the fact that I’ve been a member of Netphoria, in good standing, for over one-and-twenty years.

sure you do. a full 180 on previous stances in order to not get banned. how is that supposed to be taken seriously? Nevermind, it isn't, and I'm a fool for responding to it.

[redbreegull]

I learned a long time ago to just keep my mouth shut about Israel but here it goes anyway.

Having a homeland in Palestine has been part of Jewish identity for thousands of years. The Jews have only held political control there for a few short stints, but it's still emotionally difficult to divorce the desire for a Jewish homeland from Jewish identity. So yes, like most Jews, it's hard for me to say I don't think Israel should exist or it doesn't have a right to defend itself.

Having said that, what is happening now is absolute maniacal genocide. People of Netanyahu's ilk have been waiting decades for this opportunity to seize Gaza and eliminate the Palestinian people. I think the comparison to the US' invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan is on the nose. A horrible terror attack is being used as justification to murder tens of thousands of innocent people in a political land grab. I say this as someone who probably is more familiar with the conflict than the majority of humans, because I lived there, and worked for a pro-peace organization.

I hope the Hague prosecutes the Israeli government into oblivion, and what I actually hope happens to Netanyahu I shouldn't post on the internet