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Old 02-02-2024, 11:46 PM   #271
ilikeplanets
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I find it incredibly minimizing of the real threat of another holocaust, both in the the Israeli region and worldwide, to call the need for Israel an "emotional desire."

The killing of Palestinians is maniacal and evil. There are also maniacal and evil attempts to eliminate the Jews, and there won't be any hope without a nation. I don't know why that has to be, but it can't be ignored.

I don't understand how a Jew can gloss over the ever-present threat of death and violence, particularly of Jews in the Middle East, but really all over the world. I hope you never feel that hatred.

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Old 02-03-2024, 12:30 AM   #272
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Well, I would say Israel's existence has not made the world safer for Jews. The best place to be a Jewish person is still the US. And I have serious doubts that an ethno-state can ever truly function as a liberal democracy. Again this is hard for me because I have a very deep personal connection to Israel, I have Israeli friends who are normal people and not insane racists, but living in Israel I was exposed to how terrifyingly racist and authoritarian a lot of the public attitude is. It's a deeply right-wing state, and I met plenty of people who are as disgusted by their own country as the rest of the world is. I want Israel to exist and I want the Jews to have a homeland, but I do not see what has happened in the last 7 decades as a successful experiment.

 
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Old 02-03-2024, 12:36 AM   #273
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And I've brought this up before and it's entirely anecdotal, but my experience was that the racism is far worse from the Jews towards the Arabs than the other way around, at least what is acceptable in public discourse. It's not unusual to hear people say shit like well the Arabs have all these countries and the Jews only have one, so why can't they just gtfo. It's like a country of Donald Trumps, and living there to me did not feel like the holy sanctuary for an oppressed people, it felt like living in an authoritarian racist nightmare, far worse than the US in that way.

 
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Old 02-03-2024, 12:43 AM   #274
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And of course the Jews worldwide face an existential threat. I absolutely acknowledge that. I am utterly horrified at what happened in October, and it's taken me months to even collect my thoughts in a way I wanted to write down. And I've seen a lot of complete nonsense from pro-Palestinian folks as well, conspiracy theories, claims that the attack was a false flag, the belief that ANY tactic is permissible to push the Israelis into the sea. I despise those beliefs with a heated passion. But I also cannot ignore the reality of the Israeli state, which has if anything, only exacerbated global hatred for the Jewish people via ethnic cleansing and annexation towards others. Because the most popular sentiment is not never again, it's never again for us.

 
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Old 02-03-2024, 12:46 AM   #275
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I do identify strongly with my culture, and I do love being Jewish, and that's to the point that I can realize how Israel's actions undermine everything that is good and wholesome about Judaism. The Torah commands us to heal the world, not to build a fascist ethnostate to insulate us from outside threats at the cost of generations of bloodshed and racist violence to other groups.

 
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Old 02-03-2024, 12:49 AM   #276
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And I'm done because I knew better than to open this can of worms but did so anyway, but I'll share a thought I sometimes heard from Israelis on the left. Does Israeli have the right to exist? Yes. Does Israel have the right to exist if that means the eternal damnation of the Palestinians? ....no. no country and no people have that right. And to be a truly moral Jew who adheres to the good stuff in the Bible, tikun olam etc., Israel's actions against Palestine make less than zero sense, and present an impossible, unworkable moral dilemma. The existence of a Jewish state can never be morally justifiable if the cost is the oppression of others, regardless of how much people hate Jews.

 
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Old 02-03-2024, 01:27 AM   #277
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Having a homeland in Palestine has been part of Jewish identity for thousands of years. The Jews have only held political control there for a few short stints, but it's still emotionally difficult to divorce the desire for a Jewish homeland from Jewish identity. So yes, like most Jews, it's hard for me to say I don't think Israel should exist or it doesn't have a right to defend itself.
Yeah, the way I think Israel shouldn't exist is the same way the US shouldn't exist, or the UK, or France, and so on. Borders are violent. Jewish people absolutely should have the freedom to come and go in the region -- and to call it home -- just not as settlers commanding an apartheid state.

There are only two options here: (1) the total or nearly total genocide of Palestinians, or (2) dismantling the entire apartheid apparatus. When people say "Israel has the right to defend herself" in this context, it's very hard not to see it as a clear preference for the first option.

And I say this as someone who used to be sympathetic to the idea of "fuck all borders, but Israel's last", considering the thousands of years of persecution against Jewish people. But there's no way to sidestep the issue here. It's an extremely belligerent state intent on committing genocide as we speak.

 
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Old 02-03-2024, 01:52 AM   #278
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There are only two options here: (1) the total or nearly total genocide of Palestinians, or (2) dismantling the entire apartheid apparatus.
This disgusting truth has been restated here several times over the past couple of months. I want to care for the world in a way that doesn't dispose of me, or anyone else. It's an almost unbearable position to be in.

 
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Old 02-03-2024, 03:08 AM   #279
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This disgusting truth has been restated here several times over the past couple of months. I want to care for the world in a way that doesn't dispose of me, or anyone else. It's an almost unbearable position to be in.
I'm not going to say I know how it feels, but I sympathise. Truly, I do.

This has been eating at me for the good part of a decade now. As an immigrant in the UK, I always try not to dismiss antisemitism on the left, both out of principle and in solidarity with Jewish people who belong with us. I see how they are often put in an impossible position; how they are forced to overlook the antisemitism within precisely because they see how the hard right is by far the largest threat.

It's just a mess. The entire thing with Corbyn here was so disheartening. I'm the first one to admit he screwed up on antisemitism at least a couple of times. I just don't think it was fair to call him "an existential threat to Jewish people in the UK", especially not when the very people making that accusation were the ones who, among other things, decried the "cult of gender". If you follow any of that stuff closely, you know that the gender critical crowd has really cozied up to the far right; you know that they run in the same circles as those who claim there's a Jewish conspiracy to "trans" young kids, etc. And the Tory government is very happy to indulge and empower those people. I feel like I'm losing my mind when the left is then painted as not only the largest but the only threat to Jewish people.

Then I remember how back in 2018, when a mob of Bolsonaro supporters were trying to intimidate us on election day in London ("your days are counted, you queers and degenerates", finger guns to the head), the only flag they were brandishing other than the Brazilian one was the Israeli one. I'm not saying this changed my entire outlook, but it brought things into focus somehow.

I know I'm rambling here. I think my point is: even though the Jewish people I personally know are leftists who don't believe in borders either, I know their parents and relatives don't always share their opinions. I know that a large enough chunk of them are invested in a certain ideology that allows them to overlook some genuinely scary stuff.

It's bad enough that I can't really take them at face value when they say, "This is the only way we can be safe in this world, this is the only project worth pursuing for the safety of the Jewish people." As someone who is not Jewish, maybe it is not my place to have an opinion on this (and at the end of the day I'm a nobody with no influence whatsoever, anyway). But I can't turn my brain off. I can't look into the apartheid put in place by Israel, I can't watch the way they are flattening Gaza right now, I can't see how the most ardent supporters of Israel worldwide are exactly those who are happy to embolden far right movements who are salivating to throw Jewish people under the bus -- I can't do any of that and still go, "Well, it's complicated."

It's not complicated. I truly believe this project is a very dangerous dead-end, both for Jewish people everywhere and for the Palestinians who are dying right now. I don't claim to know how to make Jewish people safe, but even I can tell this is not it.

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Old 02-03-2024, 06:02 AM   #280
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where are you from Rairun, if I may ask?

 
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Old 02-03-2024, 10:48 AM   #281
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Great perspective from redgreebull and rairun

 
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Old 02-03-2024, 11:59 AM   #282
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Reaffirming perspectives are great. Equating this to 9/11 and the response of the US is certainly flawed. Painting Israel as a country full of intolerant racists intent on regional domination is...just not worth retorting so I didn't.

Let's not forget who attempted to share the land many times over and how that was met. Hamas and millions in the region do not want a peaceful solution. They want no Jews there, no Israel there. It's not just Hamas that feels this way. The arguments calling out morally dubious behavior on the part of Israel never mention that! Because Israel's military is (currently) stronger? That certainly wasn't always the case, so quote that history.

We all agree on the mutual horror, but this isn't some sort of "project." If Israel dissolves, even if the intent was to restructure, there will be no effort from the other side to make that actualize. That's why the US is safer for Jews. There's never a time when being attacked isn't a risk, there never was.

 
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Old 02-03-2024, 12:03 PM   #283
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This is just the same circular argument, no one shed any new light here

 
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Old 02-03-2024, 12:28 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by ilikeplanets View Post
Reaffirming perspectives are great. Equating this to 9/11 and the response of the US is certainly flawed. Painting Israel as a country full of intolerant racists intent on regional domination is...just not worth retorting so I didn't.

Let's not forget who attempted to share the land many times over and how that was met. Hamas and millions in the region do not want a peaceful solution. They want no Jews there, no Israel there. It's not just Hamas that feels this way. The arguments calling out morally dubious behavior on the part of Israel never mention that! Because Israel's military is (currently) stronger? That certainly wasn't always the case, so quote that history.
Stronger than what?

 
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Old 02-03-2024, 12:46 PM   #285
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Stronger than those trying to destroy it

 
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Old 02-03-2024, 12:54 PM   #286
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The general image being portrayed is that big bad colonizing Israel is coming to slaughter everyone in its wake

That's reductive, ignores historical and present context, and assumes there is a desire for a peaceful solution but Israel is flattening it

 
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Old 02-03-2024, 01:03 PM   #287
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It's still the identical dispute from pages back (centuries back), that Israel either should or should not be there and who is the bad guy, and how do all groups of people get to safely live free lives when humans are greedy destructive idiots that can't handle differences

 
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Old 02-03-2024, 01:10 PM   #288
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My personality is much better suited to talking about pretty things in the sky, aging musicians, and unhealthy cereal.

 
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Old 02-03-2024, 10:36 PM   #289
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The general image being portrayed is that big bad colonizing Israel is coming to slaughter everyone in its wake

That's reductive, ignores historical and present context, and assumes there is a desire for a peaceful solution but Israel is flattening it
There is more liberal hatred for Jews right now than there is for Syria, Iran, etc, which are imprisoning/killing women for not wearing hijab, and in the case of Syria, exterminating their own citizens. I have liberal friends who are cheering the fact that Iran is trying to start WW3 with Israel.

 
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Old 02-03-2024, 10:38 PM   #290
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one of my trans friends just bought a hijab online from a Palestinian organization, and is wearing it around portland. The fact that they would literally be imprisoned or killed in the countries they're cheering for right now is completely lost on them.

people have lost their damn minds

 
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Old 02-03-2024, 10:58 PM   #291
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Also remember how there was a ceasefire, which was supposed to solve everything (stupid but pervasive opinion), but then Hamas launched rockets into Israel

 
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Old 02-04-2024, 12:00 AM   #292
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where are you from Rairun, if I may ask?
I'm from Brazil. Grew up there, immigrated in my mid-twenties.

Anyway, I think I'm going to leave this thread now because I feel like anything else I say will be useless. I don't particularly want to fight with ilikeplanets and MyOneAndOnly (I know we're not friends, but over the years it's been nice to know there's a queer caucus of sorts around here), but those last few comments have truly left me stunned. Israel is not in any shape or form 'liberating' queer Palestinians, they're bombing them, their families, and their friends. You can't pinkwash any of this. The hijab comment made me particularly sad too. I've known people who wore one. They were sweet.

 
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Old 02-04-2024, 01:32 AM   #293
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That comment wasn't a slight at people who wear hijab, and I don't know how it could have read that way to you.

She was referring to the lunacy and misguided nature around people that would be human targets for the people they're "defending" stomping around a city in the US in traditional Middle Eastern attire. One that is often symbolic of oppression, at that.

I don't want to fight with anyone. After several months of these horrendous discussions, I have finally found the correct measure of dissociation needed to avoid taking any of it personally while maintaining my fire.

 
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Old 02-04-2024, 10:00 AM   #294
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... liberal hatred for Jews right now ... I have liberal friends ....
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Originally Posted by MyOneAndOnly View Post
one of my trans friends ...

people have lost their damn minds
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Originally Posted by ilikeplanets View Post
ceasefire, which was supposed to solve everything (stupid but pervasive opinion),
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikeplanets View Post
the lunacy and misguided nature around people that would be human targets for the people they're "defending" stomping around a city in the US in traditional Middle Eastern attire.
throughout this thread both of you have been continually ignoring the thoughtful and informed criticism of israel that people are posting and instead implying that that criticism is somehow aligned with more uninformed or radical or racist positions of "other people you know" or "people on the internet." classic bullshit fox news strategy. nobody here is making the straw man arguments y'all are pushing back against. of course various dumbass people on both sides of this issue will have bad, lazy, radical takes--just like with any issue.

what they/we are saying is more significant than just "some moron bought a hijab," it's that israel is *harming itself* by performing serious war crimes/genocide, which, looking at the UN definition, is hard to argue with.

"In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

Last edited by ovary : 02-04-2024 at 04:24 PM.

 
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Old 02-04-2024, 10:47 AM   #295
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No, I said that if Israel doesn't take military action then it will be destroyed by violence

And I said that if there's no Israel, then that's a deadly problem for Jews

I haven't been ignoring criticism. I've provided criticism while acknowledging that it's basically an impossible problem to solve if people refuse to peacefully share space.

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Old 02-04-2024, 04:26 PM   #296
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I mean, I literally just quoted you doing the straw-man thing. You can't just say "no I didn't." But whatever.

 
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Old 02-04-2024, 05:22 PM   #297
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I'm from Brazil. Grew up there, immigrated in my mid-twenties.
Ah yes I did know this

 
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Old 02-04-2024, 11:49 PM   #298
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And I said that if there's no Israel, then that's a deadly problem for Jews

Do we really need fascist ethno-states in the 21st century?

The answer is yes. I won't rest until the Scientologists have our own homeland. I don't care who has to suffer until we make this happen.

Iceland with all your fucking volcanoes better watch the fuck out from my boy Xenu.

 
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Old 02-05-2024, 05:48 AM   #299
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What's your evidence that pro Hamas "activists" would ever vote for the bad orange man?

I'm trying to tread lightly, since I was threatened with a ban from "the powers that be."
Feel free to prove the points I was making earlier by never replying.

 
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Old 02-17-2024, 04:42 PM   #300
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OK, I guess that ends that. Everyone pack your bags. Pay attention, because the "celebrity" just schooled us.

Marvel Actor Mark Ruffalo Demands Ceasefire In Gaza And Israel: “We’re Not Going To Bomb Our Way To Peace’

 
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