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Old 12-13-2021, 12:10 PM   #31
BurtSampson
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Originally Posted by teh b0lly!!1 View Post
Songs being about the band itself falling apart, addressing band members (my mistake/vanity/LMGTWTY/try/lyric/united states/countless others)
How are United States or LMGTWTY about band members?

 
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Old 12-13-2021, 12:51 PM   #32
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Let me give the world to you == Let me pay your 5 pence.

 
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Old 12-13-2021, 02:57 PM   #33
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Let me give the world to you == Let me pay your 5 pence.
Machina Mystery = solved.

Reissue cancelled.

 
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Old 12-13-2021, 05:23 PM   #34
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let give you a tshirt with your face on it my love

 
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Old 12-13-2021, 11:24 PM   #35
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take your cock out of my ass and put it in my mouth

 
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Old 12-14-2021, 09:48 PM   #36
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Has a fall from grace from a major band ever been so great? And what do you think caused this?
IMO no, as far as "90s bands" go. Billy went from the absolute top of the pile to a fucking idiot. As we all are fans we can all speculate on when the flame-out happened, but it definitely happened. He flamed out hard.

I blame it on the crucial move of making adore, which caused him to second-guess himself for the first time, and then he made Machina as a reaction to that. You can't make reactionary art. That's why he says shit like "my greatest album is just sitting on a shelf". He lost his infallible self-confidence and stopped putting up 3's.

 
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Old 12-15-2021, 06:11 AM   #37
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He went from working with producers who said "no" to producers who said "sure".

 
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Old 12-15-2021, 10:56 PM   #38
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I blame it on the crucial move of making adore, which caused him to second-guess himself for the first time, and then he made Machina as a reaction to that. You can't make reactionary art. That's why he says shit like "my greatest album is just sitting on a shelf". He lost his infallible self-confidence and stopped putting up 3's.


Adore is a courageous and beautiful record and the worst possible way of capitalizing on the popularity of MCIS.

Billy took a brave leap with Adore, I really admired him for it, most of us here do. But 'The Public' mostly rejected it. I think he's got deep-seated psychological issues from his traumatic past and that rejection really 'triggered' those issues. He's not been able to create from his authentic self ever since.

I like Machina a whole hell of a lot, but it was the least authentic thing Billy had ever produced up until then, and his work has only become more and more inauthentic since.

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Old 12-16-2021, 12:30 AM   #39
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i would agree, but zwan 2001 shows

 
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Old 12-16-2021, 01:30 AM   #40
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Fair. Those sets were amazing. I don't know what happened there.

Maybe, after what happened with Adore, he just didn't have the courage to make his first step back into 'The Public' with that more intimate and honest version of Zwan. MSOTS ended up really inauthentic.

Billy deserves all the bashing we give him, but I think the guy's making all these poor choices because he's clearly messed up from his trauma. He was able to cope better when he was famous, the love of The Public replacing the love of his parents and all that. And when The Public turned their back on him it triggered all those old traumas about his own family. I'm pretty sure if he started working with a proper trauma therapist we'd start to see good music from him again.

 
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Old 12-16-2021, 02:41 AM   #41
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Except he can't sing anymore. But good lyrics and instrumentals would carry a LOT of weight.

 
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Old 12-16-2021, 05:23 AM   #42
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Hi Kinder!

The downfall continues!... Where is the first track from MCIS/machina???
I thought they wanted to release a first track in December 2021????????

Any news on the release date?

It is again disappointing....

not even an announcement..

Happy xmas fuckin

 
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Old 12-16-2021, 12:57 PM   #43
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Except he can't sing anymore. But good lyrics and instrumentals would carry a LOT of weight.
I think there's still a quality voice in there that could be uniquely his and convey authentic emotion. He just sounds so passionless these days, like he's doesn't really believe in himself or his words anymore. He needs the Billy of tonite, tonite to have a kind and compassionate sit down with himself.

If he got therapy he might be able to write lyrics he could really feel. And a good producer who knew what he was about (please for the love of fuck get back with Flood) would be able to find a way to get more passion in his vocal performances.

 
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Old 12-16-2021, 12:58 PM   #44
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Somebody should give him 'The Body Keeps the Score' or 'CPTSD: from Surviving to Thriving' for Christmas. The dude needs help. But I don't think there's anyone in his life who's aware enough or incentivized enough to make him face it. I think that was the real value D'Arcy brought to the band. She wouldn't take the bullshit of his maladaptive coping mechanisms and I think it really helped him psychologically, making him a more reflective artist and person to be around.

 
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Old 12-16-2021, 01:29 PM   #45
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He was able to cope better when he was famous, the love of The Public replacing the love of his parents and all that. And when The Public turned their back on him it triggered all those old traumas about his own family. I'm pretty sure if he started working with a proper trauma therapist we'd start to see good music from him again.
These are all unproven assumptions, tho. We don't know the true extent of the so called old traumas. Maybe it's all true or maybe it's like Kurt Cobain's own revisionism, as Krist Novoselic described it.

There's also this Youtube interview i can no longer find where Willy says once success arrived something snapped in his head and that was when he realized he had a strange life, no reference point etc...

 
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Old 12-16-2021, 01:54 PM   #46
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Looooong Sidenote: I've been so dismissive of Bill as an ego-maniacal asshole since before Zeitgeist. But after my own recent mental health crisis, I've been learning about all the weird ways childhood trauma can mess with you. Billy's behavior over the last 20 years is textbook trauma response stuff. We love him and he loves us but he also abuses us and so we abuse him back (here on Netphoria anyway). And because his best music came from a place of honest reflection on his traumatized self, the majority of us Pumpkins fans are people who identify with that because of our own unresolved childhood traumas and neglect.

We're all in a toxic traumatic relationship with the dude. It's gotten really unhealthy, especially for him. And it's so sad, because those golden years had him producing stuff that really helped a lot of us feel like there was a way out of our emotional cages.

I listened, like REALLY REALLY listened, to MCIS for the first time in 20 years the other night, lyrics in hand, paying attention to nothing else, and reflecting on it from of my new found understanding of the damage trauma can do to you. And this 38 year old dude started fucking crying. That stretch of songs from 'tonite, tonite' up to 'muzzle' is just incredible lyrically when you know more about CPTSD and it's struggles.

I realized for the first time exactly why I was so obsessed with them while I was going through my own childhood traumas. The sense of a lost childhood in 'to forgive', the futile fury against a traumatizing world in 'bullet' and 'fuck you', the sense that you're a ruinous toxic presence in your relationships in 'galapagos' and 'love', the self hatred/disgust in 'jellybelly' and 'zero', the coping with your teenage helplessness in 'here is no why'.

But all that is bookended with 'tonite, tonite' and 'muzzle'. Two songs about believing in yourself and your potential to overcome your trauma. Billy's singing to/about himself, but it's encouragement to us too. I can get better if I "believe in me," believe that "life can change, that you're not stuck in vain," that "we'll make things right, we'll feel it all," and "crucify the insincere."

Even though I'm "forever broken," I can get better if I allow myself to believe that "I am meant for this world," and if I can embrace that fact, then the "world, so hard to understand" will be "drawn into your hands" and "etched upon your heart."

It's fucking powerful, honest and uplifting stuff. He's facing his ugliness while also believing in his potential for beauty. It's so disappointing that the public perception of SP and MCIS grew to be of an empty teenage angsty shallow mainstream cash-grab. I kinda fell into that perception myself as I got older, pretending those emotions were immature and naive and was always a little embarrassed to admit MCIS is my favourite album. I'm right fucking back on board now though. Golden era Billy was an honest to fuck genius who had people around him that could force him to be honestly self-reflective about what he was going through and what it caused him to put others through, but also of how he believed in himself to get better.

 
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Old 12-16-2021, 01:55 PM   #47
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Get a load of this fuckin guy

What is this? no one's going to read all that shit

 
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Old 12-16-2021, 02:15 PM   #48
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These are all unproven assumptions, tho. We don't know the true extent of the so called old traumas. Maybe it's all true or maybe it's like Kurt Cobain's own revisionism, as Krist Novoselic described it.

There's also this Youtube interview i can no longer find where Willy says once success arrived something snapped in his head and that was when he realized he had a strange life, no reference point etc...

True, it's all 'empirically' unproven. We only have the things Billy's said in interviews, his autobiographical writing, his lyrics, watching his behaviour and how he reacts to stress. We can't really know what's going on in his head. Yes, the stuff about his parents is hearsay from Billy, for sure. But at the very least we do know he had a brother with a severe mental disability as he was growing up, and the responsibilities, emotional burden and emotional neglect that that kind of family dynamic puts on a child is a known cause of CPTSD.

But maybe I've got a hammer and everything's a nail to me right now, I'd accept that possibility. But his behaviour and his lyrics really do match very closely with the symptoms of CPTSD.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not condoning him being an asshole. Just because you're broken it doesn't mean you're allowed to get away with being shitty to people. It's part of the healing process, apologizing and making amends, reflecting on your behaviour and working on rectifying the problems inside you that cause you to make such bad choices and be so damaging to your relationships. I'm going through this myself right now. It's not easy, it's the hardest part of healing when you get to it so late in your life.

 
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Old 12-16-2021, 03:31 PM   #49
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Get a load of this fuckin guy

What is this? no one's going to read all that shit
sorry for the negative rep lol, didn't realize you were replying to yourself here

 
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Old 12-16-2021, 03:32 PM   #50
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SP and MCIS grew to be of an empty teenage angsty shallow mainstream cash-grab
I think cash grab is a bit much. everyone is allowed to persue success. lets not apologize for the few that get it.
yes, there's an arrested development to the adolecent level of maturity. yes, it's very similar to CPTSD, but I'm not ready to make the leaps you're making. suburban teenage trauma spoke to thousands of american teens, it was like shooting fish in a barrel. There's more to it than just trama. there's genuine sincerity, heart and love. "do you feel, love is real?". there's lyrical juxtoposition like there's sonic juxtoposition. I believe it was intentional. I say this because the lyrical content on gish is very different, and I can only assume it was an intentional step in that direction of digging into the self and all the complexities that come with it. and he paints it with a brush of nostalgia - which is comforting to those confused teens/ "will I be ok?"... well yes you will.

 
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Old 12-16-2021, 03:35 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by pineapple*soul View Post
I listened, like REALLY REALLY listened, to MCIS for the first time in 20 years the other night, lyrics in hand, paying attention to nothing else, and reflecting on it from of my new found understanding of the damage trauma can do to you. And this 38 year old dude started fucking crying. That stretch of songs from 'tonite, tonite' up to 'muzzle' is just incredible lyrically when you know more about CPTSD and it's struggles.

I realized for the first time exactly why I was so obsessed with them while I was going through my own childhood traumas. The sense of a lost childhood in 'to forgive', the futile fury against a traumatizing world in 'bullet' and 'fuck you', the sense that you're a ruinous toxic presence in your relationships in 'galapagos' and 'love', the self hatred/disgust in 'jellybelly' and 'zero', the coping with your teenage helplessness in 'here is no why'.

But all that is bookended with 'tonite, tonite' and 'muzzle'. Two songs about believing in yourself and your potential to overcome your trauma. Billy's singing to/about himself, but it's encouragement to us too. I can get better if I "believe in me," believe that "life can change, that you're not stuck in vain," that "we'll make things right, we'll feel it all," and "crucify the insincere."

Even though I'm "forever broken," I can get better if I allow myself to believe that "I am meant for this world," and if I can embrace that fact, then the "world, so hard to understand" will be "drawn into your hands" and "etched upon your heart."

It's fucking powerful, honest and uplifting stuff. He's facing his ugliness while also believing in his potential for beauty. It's so disappointing that the public perception of SP and MCIS grew to be of an empty teenage angsty shallow mainstream cash-grab. I kinda fell into that perception myself as I got older, pretending those emotions were immature and naive and was always a little embarrassed to admit MCIS is my favourite album. I'm right fucking back on board now though. Golden era Billy was an honest to fuck genius who had people around him that could force him to be honestly self-reflective about what he was going through and what it caused him to put others through, but also of how he believed in himself to get better.
I do agree with all this. I also have CPTSD and, whatever the specifics of his childhood were, he clearly has trauma. A lot of the songs are very juvenile for someone his age to have written (~28) from the perspective of a well-adjusted, trauma resolved person. But they make sense from the lens of someone who is dealing with that stuff in the present moment and also embracing leftover teenage angst that was either repressed or unable to be expressed appropriately at the time. Which is a very healthy thing to do through music. Yeah, the emotions are immature. But we all have parts of us that ARE immature, especially if we have unresolved trauma. Letting them control your life is what is unhealthy and/or pretending those parts don't exist. I honestly think Billy was playing up aspects of himself on MCIS on purpose as a therapeutic exercise. That doesn't make them less sincere, but it does make it a mature vs immature coping mechanism.

 
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Old 12-16-2021, 04:08 PM   #52
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In the interview i cited above and that FFS i can no longer find, he said something like "celebrity contributed to my own grandiosity which delayed growing up another ten years" so you may all be onto something.

 
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Old 12-16-2021, 05:09 PM   #53
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In the interview i cited above and that FFS i can no longer find, he said something like "celebrity contributed to my own grandiosity which delayed growing up another ten years" so you may all be onto something.
Fuck. Could you imagine him making an album that came from that honest and humble self-realization? All the ugliness and fear and egoism and narcissism of it. But allowing in some optimism that in facing it he might start to heal? And without picking up a thesaurus? Now that'd be a true sequel to MCIS, at least thematically.

Sure, the Zero/Glass stuff was an interesting allegory that touched on that theme, but yeah, WAY too grandiose, hearing the voice of god and all that. Sheesh.

 
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Old 12-16-2021, 05:10 PM   #54
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You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to reprise85 again.

 
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Old 12-16-2021, 06:16 PM   #55
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Did some digging. These Billy interviews don't seem to have that specific quote you were talking about but seem relevant to what we're talking about




 
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Old 12-16-2021, 09:15 PM   #56
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Looooong Sidenote: I've been so dismissive of Bill as an ego-maniacal asshole since before Zeitgeist. But after my own recent mental health crisis, I've been learning about all the weird ways childhood trauma can mess with you. Billy's behavior over the last 20 years is textbook trauma response stuff. We love him and he loves us but he also abuses us and so we abuse him back (here on Netphoria anyway). And because his best music came from a place of honest reflection on his traumatized self, the majority of us Pumpkins fans are people who identify with that because of our own unresolved childhood traumas and neglect.

We're all in a toxic traumatic relationship with the dude. It's gotten really unhealthy, especially for him. And it's so sad, because those golden years had him producing stuff that really helped a lot of us feel like there was a way out of our emotional cages.

I listened, like REALLY REALLY listened, to MCIS for the first time in 20 years the other night, lyrics in hand, paying attention to nothing else, and reflecting on it from of my new found understanding of the damage trauma can do to you. And this 38 year old dude started fucking crying. That stretch of songs from 'tonite, tonite' up to 'muzzle' is just incredible lyrically when you know more about CPTSD and it's struggles.

I realized for the first time exactly why I was so obsessed with them while I was going through my own childhood traumas. The sense of a lost childhood in 'to forgive', the futile fury against a traumatizing world in 'bullet' and 'fuck you', the sense that you're a ruinous toxic presence in your relationships in 'galapagos' and 'love', the self hatred/disgust in 'jellybelly' and 'zero', the coping with your teenage helplessness in 'here is no why'.

But all that is bookended with 'tonite, tonite' and 'muzzle'. Two songs about believing in yourself and your potential to overcome your trauma. Billy's singing to/about himself, but it's encouragement to us too. I can get better if I "believe in me," believe that "life can change, that you're not stuck in vain," that "we'll make things right, we'll feel it all," and "crucify the insincere."

Even though I'm "forever broken," I can get better if I allow myself to believe that "I am meant for this world," and if I can embrace that fact, then the "world, so hard to understand" will be "drawn into your hands" and "etched upon your heart."

It's fucking powerful, honest and uplifting stuff. He's facing his ugliness while also believing in his potential for beauty. It's so disappointing that the public perception of SP and MCIS grew to be of an empty teenage angsty shallow mainstream cash-grab. I kinda fell into that perception myself as I got older, pretending those emotions were immature and naive and was always a little embarrassed to admit MCIS is my favourite album. I'm right fucking back on board now though. Golden era Billy was an honest to fuck genius who had people around him that could force him to be honestly self-reflective about what he was going through and what it caused him to put others through, but also of how he believed in himself to get better.
Don't agree with everything, I think you're projecting a bit.

I don't love him for starters. And if he loves me, that'd be strange considering we've not met before.

He doesn't abuse me, how could he do that? I also don't abuse him on here. I mourn the loss of him as an idol, sure.

As for CPTSD, trauma, etc, it sounds like you started a healing journey inward. Congrats and good luck with that. I agree that I also found some external acceptance in Pumpkins music. I really identified with it lyrically and sonically and it'll probably always mean a lot to me.

 
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Old 12-17-2021, 05:31 AM   #57
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Fuck. Could you imagine him making an album that came from that honest and humble self-realization?
Found it. It was uploaded 11 years ago by some obscure account named MonteLDS which i've never heard of, btw.


 
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Old 12-17-2021, 11:03 AM   #58
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the market has changed.

IN 1996 the telecommunications act, which is good for a lot of things but loosens the restrictions on who can own how many stations fucked up everything. Clear Channel went on a buying spree, and this turns out to be Armageddon for rock radio. Suddenly one dude in Texas is programming nearly every alternative station in the country (or at least enough to dictate the tone for everyone else). Forget local scenesters bubbling up or weidos like with Ween and Presidents of the USA getting airplay - we got pop punk, rap rock, and boy bands on repeat. Music calcifies in 1999. You can even tell when it happens because Enema of the state topped the charts EVERYWHERE for ever.
And women dissapear from rock radio. completely. Lilith fair rans from 1997-1999 and puts out multiple double CD collections; by 2001 you'd think no woman but Gwen Stefani and Meg White ever touched an instrument. And entire burgeoning folk-rock ecosystem got snuffed out. Instead, we got Britney and Christina and the rest. which is FINE, and I don't hate pop punk either, and nu-metal... but that single TEXAN locus of musical control was NOT ok.

if you were a Gen Xer who went off to college, in a cocoon of college radio of 1996, coming back to mainstream radio in 2000 was like surveying an astroid aftermath.

Rock Music NEVER recovers. not really. sure we had a brief Stroke resurgence in 2001 thanks to the white stripes and the NYC scene, but it's nothing like before.

pleanty of stuff is wrong with the music right now. the incubation system and studio gatekeeping lables used to provide is gone. which is good because production/plubication has been democratized but it's also bad because no one is making any $$ and SOOO many songs just feel 75% finished

and pop and hiphops habits of using the SAME 10 producers for YEARS has glued those genres into stone. Please, i odn't want to hear another hi-hat triplet in my life ever again)

so when we feel like something went terribly wrong with the music industry, when we feel like the ideal era was 1991-94 (or 91-97), something DID go wrong.
as usual, the culprit was deregulation under capitalism
and as usual it's easier to point ant each other and say "you're doing it wrong, get over it" when the proper respons should be "damn, you guys got screwed, here's a hug, I wonder how else we are getting screwed".
This is one of the best takes Iíve read on why rock ďdiedĒ essentially. Whatís your take on the current state of music where it seems like only people from wealthy families have any chance? Obviously having connections has always been a thing in the industry. But there were always rags to riches stories like Billy also. Now music seems to have trended to being something only the wealthy or offspring of celebrities can partake in.

It seemed to start with the Strokes. With the whole band being rich kids with powerful fathers. Of course now you have the likes of Taylor Swift, Lana, Billie Eilish etc who all come from wealthy and well connected families. Itís also interesting how Gen Z doesnít question their roots or even care. Whereas Gen X would have ripped them to shreds for being privileged. It seems that talent alone is no longer enough to make it. Billy Corgan would never make it if he had come up in this musical climate.

 
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Old 12-17-2021, 04:44 PM   #59
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Itís also interesting how Gen Z doesnít question their roots or even care. Whereas Gen X would have ripped them to shreds for being privileged.
Obviously these folks are enormously popular, so plenty of people of all ages don't care (at least, enough to stop listening), but I would say the majority of the time I hear about wealth or industry connections or whatever, it's from our nation's youts. They seem like a very "woke" generation (not using that pejoratively, but YMMV) who're ready to pounce on this sort of thing. I don't know if I've ever seen a tweet thread about LDR, for instance, that doesn't devolve into arguing about her being a spoiled little rich girl. Kids of all ages take part!

 
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Old 12-17-2021, 05:18 PM   #60
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There's two conversations going on in here.

What caused the fall in the popularity of new Smashing Pumpkins releases?
And what caused the fall in the quality of new Smashing Pumpkins releases?

Two different questions, each with different answers. With each answer being one of the causes of the other

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