Billy’s such an asshole…

[T&T]

Originally Posted by VoxUpDoc

Is Adore so beautiful though?

[ilikeplanets]

Originally Posted by Rairun

What did he say about SD? I haven't really been following any of it.

Whoops, didn't see your comment earlier! Well:

During this podcast run, he's been saying that SD is over-polished and it makes sense why the "fans" that like this album are just regular, Church on Sunday idiots. There isn't a high concept to it, and it is devoid of any real emotion or art. He made this record while being pressured by Butch Vig to create a highly marketable "perfect" album, and he didn't find any emotional fulfillment out of making the album. So therefore anyone that does find any emotional merit to the album is actually a shallow person who only wants to "rawk."

In a nutshell. It's bullshit. SD is raw emotion, transformative, dark and hopeful. With mind-blowing instrumentation and melody. And yes, it rocks. He's just frustrated he can't reproduce it without Butch Vig. It still angers me to hear him, though.

[Rairun]

Very weird to hear him say this, given he fought tooth and nail against the "overproduced" criticism back in the day!

Lyrically I find SD to be exactly where it is in the discography: between Gish and MCIS. Gish is a good album and the lyrics seem like an afterthought. I feel SD is where Billy started finding his voice, but it hadn't fully matured yet. There are lots of little moments where the words join the music to express something singular and important, but there's also a lot of Gish-like filler. Like, I don't think all words need to make sense, but I feel that in MCIS even the ones that don't make sense often convey a mood that serves the song. SD still has a lot of bland lines that don't have much of a function other than fitting the melody, but then there are other lines that really cut through.

TLDR I don't think SD is their masterpiece, but it's an incredible album.

[ilikeplanets]

SD is my favorite album, and to me it is musically perfect. Lyrics have always been secondary with SP's discography, in terms of my enjoyment of the songs. But I absolutely get what you mean about his lyrical development, and would posit that his improvement continues through Adore and peaks at Machina (some beautiful verbal imagery on that album).

MCIS isn't too far behind, but its experimentation and difference in style make it a little less than perfect in some places, which is still SO GREAT but SD is flawless. I didn't think that was a bad thing, but apparently I hate true music and creativity because I appreciate how incredible it sounds and the emotions that cause for me.

[ilikeplanets]

I also think MCIS is their masterpiece (and I love it), but Siamese Dream is an album full of my favorite musical style and nothing else, so it's first for me.

[T&T]

please cite some FILLER LINES found on SD

[MyKeyZ]

Well, we've heard Billy's album songwriting and musicianship decline with each following album over the last 20 years, so he obviously has absolutely no clue what is a good album or good song anymore since his newer albums are low tier, forgettable cringefests. So he has to crap on the past to make himself feel better about the complete garbage he's been putting out today. It's pretty baffling how far Billy has fallen. His head and ego are so far up his own ass, he wouldn't know a decent song if it hit him in the face. It's almost like he knows his new music is nowhere near the level as his old music, so he has to say and do everything he can to make you hate his old music. In his brain, he thinks this is going to work and make people think he is a musical genius, not this hollowed out version of himself. No Billy, you're just making your fans hate you more. I'm telling you, when this all blows up and Billy fails once again with Atum, he will just say that he was talking as a character on his podcast. He really thinks his older albums are his best work. Then he will turn into a full on nostalgia act only playing his old hits and falling back on archive releases of when he was good in order to suck up every dollar he can because he needs those Gish and SD and MCIS fans because the bootlickers who think the sun shines out Billy's ass are not enough to keep his career going.

[Rairun]

Originally Posted by T&T

please cite some FILLER LINES found on SD

Maybe "filler" is ungenerous, but take "faith lies in the ways of sin / i chased the charmed but i don't want them anymore". Don't get me wrong, Hummer is one of my favourite songs of all time, but a lot of lines are just... there. They aren't entirely meaningless, you can sit down and try to interpret them, but they are kind of obtuse and vague in a way that doesn't do it for me. Same deal with "And in their eyes, I was alive—a fool's disguise / Take me away from you". You get the gist of what he's saying, but it sounds a bit pedestrian - and if a few other lines didn't do a better job than that, the song wouldn't hit as hard. The music and the emotion in his singing are still carrying most of the weight.

Now get a throwaway line from MCIS: "To runaround kids in get-go cars / With Vaseline afterbirths and neon coughs". It's just as obtuse, but at the same time it feels a lot more concrete? He deals less in abstract concepts and more in images and sensations. It works better imho.

[Ram27]

my issue is i just cannot get myself to engage in caring about the golden era stuff anymore [although i did enjoy reading these posts and thinking about the songs meaningfully for the first time in a while]. it feels null and void knowing atum exists.

this never happened before, not from siddartha or cyr. but maybe it's just the straw that broke the camel's back. dunno.

[VoxUpDoc]

Like The Simpsons, there is now more bad Pumpkins than good.

[ilikeplanets]

Rairun, nothing personal, but I could not disagree more about those examples you cited

[cork_soaker]

[BlissedandGone2]

Originally Posted by VoxUpDoc

Like The Simpsons, there is now more bad Pumpkins than good.

ive never thought about comparing golden age pumpkins to golden age simpsons but i like it for a few reasons:

- there's a general timeframe that most fans agree upon, but when it started and ended varies pretty significantly from person to person
- simpsons and pumpkins in their prime were both biting, edgy, heartfelt and wildly popular
- as we all know, the pumpkins were on the simpsons, but kinda crazy that a lot of people could argue that moment was the relative peak for both the band and the show happening simultaneously.

[LaBelle]

I think the vast majority of fans agrees everything past 2000 isn't essential pumpkins straight up.

[ilikeplanets]

It's been bad for twice the amount of time it was good

[MyKeyZ]

The Smashing Pumpkins ended with Machina. Period. End of story.
Everything after that has been Billy Corgan And The Billy Corgan Experience.

[T&T]

I'll keep repeating the label until it's adopted.
gish to machina.... the VIRGIN ERA

currently we're in the face makeup era.

[Joey Goldberg]

Zeitgeist is a nice epilogue for me, though it's more an epilogue to the story of Bill & Jim's collaboration than the Smashing Pumpkins, obv

[VoxUpDoc]

Originally Posted by T&T

I'll keep repeating the label until it's adopted.
gish to machina.... the VIRGIN ERA

currently we're in the face makeup era.

The Virgin Era (Gish - Machina)
The ”It’s still good, it’s still good” Era (Zwan, TFE, Zeitgeist)
The Kirk Van Houten Era (Teargarden, Oash, MTAE)
The Face Paint Era (Shiny, Cyr, ATUM)

[LoveIsSuicide42]

Yeah I am far more forgiving toward newer SP than the vast majority of people here, and I have no qualms saying SP hasn't done anything essential since Machina. There is something so off about all the material to come out since then, but it's worthwhile if you're committed to Billy as an artist.

[ilikeplanets]

I'm as committed to him as an artist as he is committed to his fans!

[eviltimeban]

The last good full album for me was Oceania. Everything else has been the odd song here and there.

[VoxUpDoc]

Still baffled by anyone liking Oceania.

[inkless]

does billy have the concerts of each extract which are in the live compilation of tafh deluxe?

[Ram27]

yes

[majesty]

I wish Courtney deviled up some drama again because loving and or hating her has consistently made B0llz come up with the goods or at least some goods. She allegedly finished a memoir in 2022…

[Ram27]

courtney and chris, the true forces behind golden era SP

[Sapphire]

I think if we're being somewhat fair - we have to recognize the full scope of what gave the original Pumpkins - and the original Billy - their place in the World.

Back when SD was released - it was as if the very musical world, in what rock music had turned into, was in direct relation to who Billy was as a person. Someone who had a boatload of trauma - angst - and who hadn't come to terms with any of it - was presented with a musical scene that highlighted those very emotions and feelings.

When Billy spread his wings and found his voice - the world was essentially just waiting for him. Not only this - but with the visceral energy of youth - being the underdog with something to prove - and new friendships with cool people that made the dreams of stardom look achievable - there was a natural energy that seemed to propel Billy to great heights - as if he was meant for it.

Already around 1998 though - this was starting to change. Adore was a reaction to that - perhaps - but the musical landscape had already changed significantly from grunge's hay-day - and suddenly Billy Corgan was no longer the underdog with something to prove - but the king of the mountain who was forced to prove that he belonged there.

Although Rock 'n' Roll music, or Grunge, or whatever - would still dominate the air-waves until it was (twenty years too late) taken off - the ultimate reality was that grunge was already old by the time MCIS was done. It's freshness had expired. Even old interviews with Nirvana had Kurt talking about doing more folksy, or less harsh stuff. An evolution of the artist - also, with greater respect - letting a moment in time be just that. A moment in time.

Billy Corgan though - he created this entity that hungered for the spotlight. He was willing to change as well. But ... no longer were the threads lining up for the perfect stitch. He had gone from naturally created sad-infused hard-hitting rock tunes, to now ... needing to find something else to do. And that's where you find Adore and Machina - entries that, while possessing strengths, never seem to find their own vision where the whole package comes together to create something more than the sum of it's parts.

It's here where Billy goes from having a vision/message - to merely producing something because ... I guess that's what's expected of him.

And so the long, dwindling, sad decline to the modern day happens. But ... honestly ... he's trapped himself. He defines himself by his glory days (as would be hard not to do) - and thereby handcuffs himself to the formula that made him that. Just that ... he can't. Because - merely going back and recreating the past magic would go against his very identity as someone who's always pushing the envelope - always breaking boundaries - so he finds this unhappy medium where he's being different because that's what he needs to do - while also remaining shackled to the tropes of what made him originally popular. You know ...

Needing to write those sad lyrics. Needs to rhyme! Has to have some kind of front-man character who isn't Billy Corgan - but kinda looks like him! Needs to be artistic for artistic sake - rather than just letting the art reflect the internal feelings.

And there comes the ultimate tragedy of it. The music was a moment in time. Forget about expecting someone to remain an angsty teenager/young youth shaking their fist at the tragedy of the world - it's nearly impossible for someone not to grow. Just that - the persona Billy built for himself seemed to have demanded it. So ... we get what we get.

What's a real shame is that ...

Music became something truly glorious in the duration since the hey-days of the Pumpkins. Billy once made mention that one of his influences on SD was actually ... electronic music. And if you want gut-punching, feet-moving, head-banging music ... electronic music would go on to create a ton of amazing stuff. From the Future sounds that seemed directly lifted from 1979 - to the Trap bangers that seem like someone took what SD did - and then cranked it to 11/10.

The World of music - NEW music - moved on and took so much of the groundwork that Billy had crafted/had a role in crafting - and took it further. And Billy ... well ...

He still seems trapped between not wanting to acknowledge that 1996 ended - and that the path he took after 1997 wasn't the right one.

[T&T]

The World of music - NEW music - moved on and took so much of the groundwork that Billy had crafted/had a role in crafting - and took it further.

what?
what music is that?

[Sapphire]

Originally Posted by T&T

what?
what music is that?

Actually, a surprising number for a song that's over a quarter century old (1979).

Like, perhaps it's unfair to say that Billy Corgan directly influenced future artists. As in, a whole bunch of folks became Billy Jrs. But being the size they were - the reach they had while music distribution was still came from a largely centered source - and the timelessness of many of the pieces themselves - it's almost like their imprint on music itself can still be felt to this day.

I'll direct you to some tracks if you want - but overall - the effect seems to be the same. In songs with catchy but mellow electronical hooks - the lyrics remain a touch aloof/obtuse - but still cut with their reflection of the world. Meant to be felt - but not necessarily focused on.

Here's one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uM5ONTNfT8k

Personally, I really like 1979. But I don't love it (EDIT: Actually, yeah, I do). Like, I really like it, but it's not one of my all time favorites. Yet - I can still hear the impacts of how that song seems to have changed music itself up until this day. So much of MCIS could be considered a crystallization of what came before - like a pure 100% hit of it - but 1979 seems to have been something that had no prior seed or root - where it was enough of it's own thing that it became a seed itself.

Like - the production - as in, the soundscapes of (most of) the early stuff that everyone hails as the highlight of their entire career - did manage to do what all modern production tries to achieve. Create a sound that, through the perfect mixture, becomes a moment unto itself - and leaves behind the individual parts. A dress that has no single seam or visible stitch sort of deal. Where - all the instruments transcend being instruments - and merge and gel together into this feeling.

Like - I'm not looking for it or anything - but when I take the overall structure of more modern songs, and I mean, you know, a few of them, not a ton of them or anything, but they seemingly have absorbed the structure of the 1979 seed. As if there were a truth or beauty inherent with it that, once it had been originally released, became a part of the ether that is all human knowledge. That going forward ...

The overall identity of music could only be considered as such if acknowledging that seed alongside the countless others that exist.