What was the hype for Adore like in late 1997?

[Elphenor]

Originally Posted by Cool As Ice Cream

you probably weren't even born in '97.

I was 3

[majesty]

There was a lot of hype. It was released I want to say early June but I’m not sure - I just remember all these gothy kids in their black zero long sleeves queuing and wilting in the heat. MTV Europe went hard with Ava Adore and all music mags had some kind of feature on the band / record. I was broke traveling that summer. I eventually scrounged some money for Adore and Celebrity Skin in October. autumn, many Mellon Collie fans had abandoned ship. The boards were lit with new fans who went hard with the zeal of the newly converted. I remember when the Perfect vid was recorded, there were accounts of board members who were there and so excited because the band was in rocking form and the vid was a sequel to the Mellon Collie hits.

[Shallowed]

Originally Posted by majesty

many Mellon Collie fans had abandoned ship. The boards were lit with new fans who went hard with the zeal of the newly converted.

i've always had this impression from the sound of the audiences on bootleg recordings

[trev]

Originally Posted by Joey Goldberg

For Martha, on the other hand, is a fucking masterpiece

agreed.

is this where we say it's really a late mcis era track and that's why it's the best of the adore era, and people here lose their minds?

[Forgotten Child]

Originally Posted by TheAlter

.

Radiohead on the other hand were more like “we got ourselves new toys and we’re having fun”.

Haha yeah when I think of Radiohead I immediately think "those guys are having fun". Right.

[TheAlter]

Originally Posted by Forgotten Child

Haha yeah when I think of Radiohead I immediately think "those guys are having fun". Right.

These are Oxford guys, mate. Their idea of fun is a CR78 and a bench.

You’re the Fred Durst backwards hat kinda guy. You do it all for the nookie.

It’s never gonna work.

[Ram27]

who the fuck is bashing to sheila in here

some of the best lyrics corgo ever wrote

A summer storm graces all of me
Highway warm sing silent poetry
I could bring you the light
And take you home into the night

[ilikeplanets]

To Sheila was the most disappointing opening at that point in the sequence. And especially jarring as a follow up to MCIS. Like instantly lackluster.

[TheAlter]

Originally Posted by Ram27

who the fuck is bashing to sheila in here

some of the best lyrics corgo ever wrote

You didn’t hear it from me.

Btw those lyrics mate, me/poetry, light/night? C’mon… he’s done so much better

[eviltimeban]

Originally Posted by ilikeplanets

To Sheila was the most disappointing opening at that point in the sequence. And especially jarring as a follow up to MCIS. Like instantly lackluster.

It's a perfect opener IMO, as it's not the obvious way to start an album (much like MCIS title track was more like an overture). It would've been more obvious to start with Ava Adore, and To Sheila would slot in somewhere later on the album.

To call it lacklustre is sort of missing the point of it.

[Shallowed]

to sheila is the BEST opener of any pumpkins album

[T&T]

To Shiela CLOSES mcis. "twilight fades...." it's the perfect and obvious way to start the album.

[eviltimeban]

Originally Posted by T&T

To Shiela CLOSES mcis. "twilight fades...." it's the perfect and obvious way to start the album.

Nice link. Though it's the kind of thing that was probably accidental but BC will say it was done that way on purpose.

[Joey Goldberg]

Originally Posted by ilikeplanets

To Forgive is firmly in my top 20. To Sheila is a skip. To Forgive has that swelling bridge section and the singing is full of emotion. To Sheila has....repeated lyrics and plucky guitar. Not the same.

for as much as we seem to generally disagree on Adore, I'm w/ you on this one

and for the record, I like To Sheila. Just don't see it as this Porcelina-level masterpiece some of you treat it as - and in terms of Pumpkins "love" songs, give me Luna, By Starlight, or SIYL over it any day

sorry Sheelz!

[Joey Goldberg]

Originally Posted by TheAlter

You didn’t hear it from me.

Btw those lyrics mate, me/poetry, light/night? C’mon… he’s done so much better

boy, am I really being cornered as the "spearhead" of anti-To-Sheiladom? I wasn't even the first bloke talking about it! & with my signature, boy this really ain't the best look for my Pumpkins-based political campaign

[Kenny.Aronoff]

Was a good time to be playing music with Billy Pumpkin.

[trev]

Originally Posted by Joey Goldberg

boy, am I really being cornered as the "spearhead" of anti-To-Sheiladom? I wasn't even the first bloke talking about it!

[selection7]

Originally Posted by ilikeplanets

To Forgive is firmly in my top 20. To Sheila is a skip. To Forgive has that swelling bridge section and the singing is full of emotion. To Sheila has....repeated lyrics and plucky guitar. Not the same.

That To Forgive is possibly the worst song on MCIS, and it's still a great song, really says something about that album.

[Joey Goldberg]

No, but that post sure says a lot about you!

[selection7]

Originally Posted by Joey Goldberg

No, but that post sure says a lot about you!

Ha, nope!

[Shadaloo]

I thought it was a near universally held opinion that Love or WOCOAN were the worst things on that album; this is the first I've ever heard anyone nominate To Forgive for that dubious honor

For my money the real answer is Tales Of A Scorched Earth

But anyway To Sheila is lovely, I never skip it.

[Shallowed]

songs i've heard others say are the worst on the album:

to forgive
love
cupid de locke
take me down
tales of a scorched earth
we only come out at night
lily

cupid and tales are two of my all time favourites

[Shallowed]

my all time favourites:

jellybelly
here is no why
fuck you
cupid
galapgos
porcelina
thirty three
tales
ruby
xyu
by starlight
farewell and goodnight

everything else is okay but i feel little to nothing for them, or i don't need to hear them ever again

[Shallowed]

mellon collie is as dense with filler as ok computer

[selection7]

Originally Posted by AveryLoren

I think part of what killed SP and Adores momentum was the change in mainstream musical direction. Billy was totally betting on rock music being dead after grunge died off.

Not sure I can agree that Billy was betting on the future of music other than maybe he thought it would follow him like he was some sort of rock pied piper.

Similar to something else you said, I think he was just doing his thing, but coming from a totally new head space of having achieved everything, within reason, he'd ever set out to do. That didn't work for him then or at any point since.

The Adore-era quote that resonates with me the most is Billy saying, in hindsight, he realized he was artificially limiting/constraining himself (paraphrased). It was as if he felt that to avoid treading water and somehow find yet another way forward, he'd have to challenge himself by leaving behind much of what made him great—that he'd worked so relentlessly for a decade to build. And he was wrapped up enough in his own success to not fully appreciate the risk of falling short and how quickly TSP's seemingly unstoppable momentum could be brought to a halt.

My memory of the fan reception was that Adore was initially well received, but then, of course it was. TSP could have released anything after those recent string of years and it would have been accepted by default. That's how groupthink works. But it didn't take the more casual fans long for their interest to shift elsewhere, and it was ultimately the beginning of the end of mainstream fandom. Since then, the fanbase has only gotten more and more niche. About a decade ago, even most of the burnouts moved on. I'm not sure how to describe current fans.

[selection7]

Originally Posted by Shadaloo

I thought it was a near universally held opinion that Love or WOCOAN were the worst things on that album; this is the first I've ever heard anyone nominate To Forgive for that dubious honor

For my money the real answer is Tales Of A Scorched Earth

But anyway To Sheila is lovely, I never skip it.

If BC released an album these days where every song was as good as Love, it would probably end up being my album of the year.
Also, TOASE gets my blood boiling. Each to their own, though.

And part of my point was that it's not really dubious to be the worst song on MCIS. Still a great song. Enjoyable to play on guitar, too.

[ilikeplanets]

My unpopular opinion of Lily being the worst MCIS track remains

[ilikeplanets]

I've heard all the arguments for it, and I just don't enjoy it

[Joey Goldberg]

people who hate Tales didn't have a bad enough childhood

[Joey Goldberg]

& Lily's cute

Well, as cute as a song about felony voyeurism can be

which as it turns out, is pretty cute!