Aghori Mhori Mei

[brothahi4L]

Originally Posted by Ihaguitar

I've just read this on another forum "Personally, I think ATUM and CYR are amongst my favorites in the SP catalog"

I'm struggling to understand it, really.

Yo, each his/her own....i guess these people werent even born in the 90s. Waiting for a sp video or driving 100 miles to the next store to buy gish or sd. I literally.went there cause i heard today and cherub rock.on the radio,but had to listen to.them.in the store and then decide quickly if i should buy it or not.

Maybe they are drawn to the cheesy synths cause they have been modern for a while now.

I just dont understand how you can not draw your attention to the lyrics....which were very touching on sd,mcis,adore.or machina.

Literally lots of spreddit buttkissers say that they do not give a shit about the lyrics and they dont mind the 18th century word salad on atum or amm cause the music is so good.


I still have the impression that with each recent release they lost more fans than they were winning new ones.

[great poster]

Originally Posted by Ihaguitar

I've just read this on another forum "Personally, I think ATUM and CYR are amongst my favorites in the SP catalog"

I'm struggling to understand it, really.

these aren't real people. anyone who genuinely has this opinion literally does not have a soul or conscience, and i'm not exaggerating or trying to be mean, they're just not people

[LoveIsSuicide42]

A lot of the people who love the new material (since 2018) are teenagers, like most of us were when we fell in love with the original band.

I think a big part of the disjunction within this fan community is that Billy is sort of unique (to his detriment) in that I don't think he has ever stopped wanting to write toward teenagers/young adults. His perceived audience/preferred primary audience has stayed the same age throughout his entire career. His attempt to mature in the middle era (basically Teargarden -> Ogilala) was a pretty big failure. When you take the angst out of the writing process, his music becomes tepid and bland. If music had a formal "Young Adult" genre like fiction does, I think Billy would be angling to have so much of the stuff land there.

Say what you will about pretty much everything since Shiny, but I don't think "bland" is a word I would use to describe the majority of it. Even if you hate the new stuff, I think there is an angst, edge, and willful experimentation to it that was lacking for quite some time in SP2. Pretty common critique for people to say that Oceania and Monuments sounds watered down, overly sanitized, adult contemporary, etc. In addition to maturation, perhaps that was Billy trying to write toward younger Millennials rather than Gen X? Zeitgeist certainly sounded a lot like the modern rock radio that was popular when I was in high school, and the next couple albums don't sound that out of place next to the "mainstream indie" phase that was big around ~2011. Now the complaints are about attempts to sound modern, lyrics being flowery, the music being clownfuckery. It's not bland as much as it is simply numbing via overstimulation-- again, something teenagers are going to respond more positively toward. Billy has always tried to sound modern and on the cutting edge for the youths, and I think he was anxious about it for a long time, but he hasn't been since James and Jimmy got his back again.

SP is a band that's at their best when they're grappling with teenage feelings, and they always have been. We have nostalgia about the older material because we were once those teenagers. But it also still resonates with us today, because many of the questions and deep longings that cause teenage angst are things that are never truly resolved over the course of a life. We're no longer desperate to be cool like we used to to be, and SP is so obviously a band fronted by a narc who is desperate to be cool. But there are still teenagers who are desperate to be cool, and I'm sure they can listen to the band today and hear what sounds like a friend.

And yes, the old material is obviously so much better-- perhaps objectively so, insofar as art can be objective. Nonetheless, I think that many of us resent, whether we are consciously aware of it or not, the new material because it's primarily attempting to communicate and be relevant with a younger generation. This is very clear on Cyr and Atum. It's trying to form those same pathways, but the recipients and mediums and ways of listening have changed over the passing generations. Many of the production choices make sense, for example, when you consider that a lot of kids are probably listening to this stuff out of phone speakers and other really cheap, disposable equipment. I think this choice is awful, on the part of both audience and artist; I would never make it in either case. But I didn't grow up in a world permeated by cellphones and other tech, and my sensibilities are different because of it.

AMM feels like a middle ground, and that's why it's getting a warmer overall reception. It's also a lot less pretentious than anything he's done in years.

[BlissedandGone2]

Originally Posted by LoveIsSuicide42

A lot of the people who love the new material (since 2018) are teenagers

What are you basing this on? I know the Pumpkins have had an uptick in popularity amongst kids these last few years, but linking that to the new material seems baseless. Kids have rediscovered the classic albums (largely I think because their parents are the original fans), and they've been used heavily in popular TV and movies.

Originally Posted by LoveIsSuicide42

His attempt to mature in the middle era (basically Teargarden -> Ogilala) was a pretty big failure.

Everything before and after that stretch within Pumpkins 2.0 has been equally as big of a failure though?

Originally Posted by LoveIsSuicide42

Say what you will about pretty much everything since Shiny, but I don't think "bland" is a word I would use to describe the majority of it.

That's good for you I guess, but bland is EXACTLY how I'd describe last almost two decades of music from Billy + company. Super boring, lacking energy, lacking taste, just lacking...

Originally Posted by LoveIsSuicide42

Many of us resent, whether we are consciously aware of it or not, the new material because it's primarily attempting to communicate and be relevant with a younger generation. This is very clear on Cyr and Atum.

What specifically indicates an attempt to be relevant with a younger generation? If anything, this was pretty explicitly intended to reconnect with the original core audience (olds), as Billy has repeatedly forced a link between the new albums and the original great albums that only an original fan would care about. You think a teenager thinks it's cool that ATUM is a sequel to MCIS and Machina? They don't even know what that means.

Originally Posted by LoveIsSuicide42

AMM feels like a middle ground, and that's why it's getting a warmer overall reception.

A middle ground to what? None of this makes any sense.

Anyways, I'd actually love if Bill tried harder to connect with younger audiences because they brought Shoegaze and dream pop back from the depths of obscurity. There was a clear opening for the Pumpkins to put out a killer record that could be popular with audiences young and old but they chose not to.

[Bomb The Moon]

Originally Posted by Machinist

Patiently waiting for someone to remix Adore using AI (with 2024 vocals)
said fucking nobody

can you imagine something like Crestfallen with modern vox?!

[GreenDogGlynis]

I was in junior high when zeitgeist was released. I guess it's been a minute since I was that age but I find it very hard to believe the band has this huge influx in teenagers who love the new material. I mean kids will always discover bands from a prior era and I'm sure now is no different. SP has great music so they'll be getting younger fans for some time to come.

Still, it really strains belief that with all of the electronic music out there made by younger people who have a modern understanding of it that all of these kids are getting into Cyr. I'm a fan of Cyr but that just doesn't seem real. It's even harder to believe teenagers are loving the 33 track Atum.

Things would have had to change A LOT since I was in high school. I think a lot of Billy's claims about teenagers loving SP comes from seeing the audience at shows. But there's a huge market for live music, and if you have a name people will come who've never listened to your music, and most won't listen after. It's just fun to go to a big concert.

I personally don't think Billy is really gearing his music toward anybody in particular. I think he really loves making music and gets lost in the process knowing he can make whatever he wants given touring is really how you make your money.

[LoveIsSuicide42]

Ya'll got me wrong

[LoveIsSuicide42]

I'm not claiming that SP is this massive band that teenagers are all raging over. People are asking, who tf likes this shitty music? Because we are all out on the internet seeing people writing positively about the newer material. My guess is that they are teenagers. I am NOT saying that they are this teenage sensation; I am saying that the people who the new music connects with are probably primarily from a younger audience. Maybe there are thousands of them rather than millions like with the old material. I'm just saying, teenagers have always seemed to be the target audience for SP. The band is a fucking product and wears that notion on its sleeve, and that's a big part of why they have only had tenuous indie cred at best.

Atum plays with all this vague dystopian shit that generation is obsessed with, given that they grew up in a culture that can no longer hide its dystopian nature. The obscure, flowery writing style of much of the lyrics will resonate with people who are trying really hard to sound and look smart and esoteric, and that's something younger people fall for. There's a feeling of desperate romance and longing all over Atum and Cyr especially. And it's all just sugary and candycoated and feels like it's an old guy trying to approximate what kids are into these days, with marginal success. But I know there are people that really connect with it.

The production choices also feel a lot more like what is popular with that generation. Focus on beats, vocals way up front, everything feeling processed, the hookiness of ATUM and Cyr, etc.

AMM is a compromise because it has elements of old SP mixed with the more modern production style. It's less hook driven, more psychedelic/progressive and band oriented, but it sounds really, really modern and keeps many ATUM tropes despite the shift in focus.

I am not saying Billy is some kinda mega genius that knows what the kids want to hear. Far from it. My claim is more about what he is attempting to do. I think he has had some success; The band is certainly in a better place than it was in like, ~2015. That being said, nothing gets popular the way stuff used to in the 90s. There's a niche, and the audience he has always written to is teenagers. That doesn't mean other folks don't like it or can't be moved by it. The social media presence is definitely gen z focused.

Their biggest song is a pop anthem to teenage nostalgia, for fuck's sake. And that feeling that song elicits is so essentially them.

[LoveIsSuicide42]

And it might not even be a totally deliberate thing about picking that audience. I can't help but think SP is a band that, for some reason or another, is fixated on youthful feelings of angst and longing.

[GreenDogGlynis]

Okay, understood. I can see it, and recognize some of it. I remember back in the day I was all about the band. My dad was born in the fifties and never got into a lot of nineties alternative stuff but liked SP and had the Rotten Apples double CD and would play it on the speakers. I go super into it and by the time Zeitgeist rolled around I played ZG constantly because I was psyched the band released an album when I was there for the release.

I remember when the Chris Isaak acoustic show was on and I was saying it was some of their best material ever. My dad just said I was crazy. So I definitely understand the enthusiasm when your favorite band releases music when you're at that age. And yes, I remember having a conversation where we going over what our favorite bands sang about, and SP was "Speaking for Youth." So I definitely see where you're coming from

[melonhead87]

Originally Posted by brothahi4L

Yo, each his/her own....i guess these people werent even born in the 90s. Waiting for a sp video or driving 100 miles to the next store to buy gish or sd. I literally.went there cause i heard today and cherub rock.on the radio,but had to listen to.them.in the store and then decide quickly if i should buy it or not.

Maybe they are drawn to the cheesy synths cause they have been modern for a while now.

I just dont understand how you can not draw your attention to the lyrics....which were very touching on sd,mcis,adore.or machina.

Literally lots of spreddit buttkissers say that they do not give a shit about the lyrics and they dont mind the 18th century word salad on atum or amm cause the music is so good.


I still have the impression that with each recent release they lost more fans than they were winning new ones.

I think these people just don’t have much variance in the music they listen to. Just so much out there in 2024 that’s better than spending time with Atum or Cyr.

[LoveIsSuicide42]

Originally Posted by GreenDogGlynis

Okay, understood. I can see it, and recognize some of it. I remember back in the day I was all about the band. My dad was born in the fifties and never got into a lot of nineties alternative stuff but liked SP and had the Rotten Apples double CD and would play it on the speakers. I go super into it and by the time Zeitgeist rolled around I played ZG constantly because I was psyched the band released an album when I was there for the release.

I remember when the Chris Isaak acoustic show was on and I was saying it was some of their best material ever. My dad just said I was crazy. So I definitely understand the enthusiasm when your favorite band releases music when you're at that age. And yes, I remember having a conversation where we going over what our favorite bands sang about, and SP was "Speaking for Youth." So I definitely see where you're coming from

Thanks for hearing me out! There was a real excitement to Zeitgeist and Oceania for me, too. There was a tragic feeling that I discovered SP after they had broken up; I thought I'd never get to see them live or anticipate new music from them. When they got back together, I wanted so badly for Billy to succeed and recapture the magic because the old music spoke to me in such a unique way. I was telling people Oceania was a 10/10 when it was new, and they told me I was crazy. Oceania does very little for me now, but what I felt at the time was real.

The new music STILL makes me excited. I know it's not the same quality; although I do really like AMM. That being said, I think I would have gone fucking nuts over Cyr, AMM, and ATUM if they had come out when I was 15, really impressionable, and eager to hear conceptual sequels to my favorite classic albums. The reaction I have to it now is toned down significantly, and mostly just something I talk about on the internet, but the music does make me smile. It connects a bit with who I was back then, and I appreciate that feeling, even though I can see through it a lot more now.

[run2pee]

Originally Posted by LoveIsSuicide42

And it might not even be a totally deliberate thing about picking that audience. I can't help but think SP is a band that, for some reason or another, is fixated on youthful feelings of angst and longing.

Makes a lot of sense. And a lot of us who were abused as children long for the childhood we never had. That’s how you make a fan for life

[eviltimeban]

No sign of AMM on either the Billboard or UK albums chart.

Now that it's flopped, what do you reckon SP's next move is? Head back to the synths?

[eviltimeban]

Sighommi has 844k Spotify streams (the highest), Murnau the lowest with 196k.

I know it's been out a lot longer, but let's look at Slowdive - Kisses from their new album has TWELVE MILLION streams. SP aren't going to go anywhere near that.

[great poster]

that’s fucking brutal. 12 million on just one of the newer songs. Jesus. That’s the kind of benefit that’s awarded to you when you don’t spend 16 years shitting on the legacy of your band and actually focus on the sound that people love and expect from you

[VoxUpDoc]

Originally Posted by great poster

that’s fucking brutal. 12 million on just one of the newer songs. Jesus. That’s the kind of benefit that’s awarded to you when you don’t spend 16 years shitting on the legacy of your band and actually focus on the sound that people love and expect from you

Nah man Bill Corgan is like Madonna or something. He’s much bigger than the band.

He can earn all the money.
He can sing like the best of them.
He can produce his vocals so they sound super modern and the kids love it, which is why SP are always topping the charts.
He can be a shit hot producer, who needs Vig, Flood, Moulder.
He can be a poet. What do literary critics and scholars know?
He can be an avant garde artiste.
He can be a business entrepeneur.
He can design his own logos and line of desirable clothing.
He can be Vince McMahon.
Etc etc

Love the guy, but how to get in your own way when you’ve struck gold. It’s baffling.
You’re world class at a specific talent so you dedicate your life attempting and failing to be world class at everything else, in an attempt to prove other people wrong & because you can’t process criticism.

[brothahi4L]

Originally Posted by great poster

that’s fucking brutal. 12 million on just one of the newer songs. Jesus. That’s the kind of benefit that’s awarded to you when you don’t spend 16 years shitting on the legacy of your band and actually focus on the sound that people love and expect from you

Exactly.my thoughts.
You cannot shit on fans not liking the newer music, or blame radio hosts.....that is so cringey as i am.

Spreddit is really heavy. Say one negative thing and they haunt you.
Has spreddit been invaded by thise spfacebookcult or sad machines??? Seems so.

Explaining why sp is not charting well or charting well.
It has been the same rat.race.for over a decade now.

I've been feeling lower than low with you billy.....

[djzap]

I'm 31 and I love the album, but I have a theory about the teenager thing because of my experience.
When I first discovered Smashing Pumpkins it was around Zeitgeist, and so Zeitgeist was an album I loved and part of my teenage experience with the band. This album is the closest thing to Zeitgeist since that record came out, and so I feel like it evokes that nostalgia. So you could discover it now and be passionate about it, but similarly if you discovered them around Zeitgeist and were passionate about that, you should like this album.

Regarding play counts and charts - the album was announced two weeks before it was released with no marketing campaign, no preview and just a few social media posts.
Even now there's no real marketing to speak of, again just social media posts.

[Machinist]

So what you are saying is that fans like you are to blame for all of this.

[djzap]

Originally Posted by Machinist

So what you are saying is that fans like you are to blame for all of this.

yeah sorry i've been amongst you all along

[Ram27]

i got into the band around 2011 when i was in high school and yeah i really enjoyed oceania, i just didn't know the band well enough to realize how insanely fucking good and superior the 90s tracks were, which oceania helped funnel me towards, in a way

but with CYR and atum i literally do not understand how that process could happen because they're completely dissimilar to anything resembling the band we know of; they're shit.

[Forgotten Child]

[houseofglass11]

Originally Posted by Ram27

i got into the band around 2011 when i was in high school and yeah i really enjoyed oceania, i just didn't know the band well enough to realize how insanely fucking good and superior the 90s tracks were, which oceania helped funnel me towards, in a way

but with CYR and atum i literally do not understand how that process could happen because they're completely dissimilar to anything resembling the band we know of; they're shit.

You sound like a casual fan.

[BlissedandGone2]

Originally Posted by Forgotten Child

so billy just figured out midjourney within the last week or so huh?

[New Art Rioter]

Elden Ring: The Corgan Chronicles

[VoxUpDoc]

I for one can’t wait to finally see the Zero story and Machina mystery as told via a series of AI animated shorts.

[Ram27]

i'm listening to AMM on iMac speakers thru youtube - closer to what i imagine the normal experience is for 'normaler' people, on spitify on their phones

it does sound better this way, less painfully dry, these speakers are made to like sound bad then project that sound off the desk to sound maybe a bit warmer and better and it kinda does. the guitars sound muddier and less bad more old. obviously nowhere near fixed completely. the vocals, if you sit at an angle, feel like they're in another channel almost and easier to ignore. (but god they're so so bad, it's not even a mix thing to a degree, it just sounds gross, the man cannot enunciate anymore so you're trying to hear lyrics and get mushy scarred vocal cords squelching)

66-cicada almost feels like a taylor swift style lyric don't ask me to explain

1979 came right on after and blew it out of the water

[ninsp]

Originally Posted by eviltimeban

Sighommi has 844k Spotify streams (the highest), Murnau the lowest with 196k.

I know it's been out a lot longer, but let's look at Slowdive - Kisses from their new album has TWELVE MILLION streams. SP aren't going to go anywhere near that.

ok well the new Slowdive is close to perfect, their last album was their best, and they don’t say stupid shit constantly in the public.

[ninsp]

The music will not be embraced until Billy stops singing like a retard