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Old 11-15-2021, 08:36 PM   #1
CherryRay
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Default Has Jimmy been more destructive to Smashing Pumpkins than Billy

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GgUpXy9GqiU

This YouTube video seems to give an impression to that effect.

 
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Old 11-15-2021, 08:52 PM   #2
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Billy has been more of an asshole, but Jimmy got fired at the worst possible time. The band's sound and trajectory never recovered.

 
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Old 11-15-2021, 08:53 PM   #3
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That guys videos suck.

 
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Old 11-15-2021, 08:59 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by ilikeplanets View Post
Billy has been more of an asshole, but Jimmy got fired at the worst possible time. The band's sound and trajectory never recovered.
He absolutely had to get clean though so he would have had to take a long break regardless.

 
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Old 11-15-2021, 09:16 PM   #5
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Still, it just seems,despite how amazing Jimmy's skills were, Billy's first instinct was right, he was a flaky ass junkie and took everyone down with him albeit in different ways.

 
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Old 11-15-2021, 09:42 PM   #6
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Damn straight. I know he's been clean for years, but he still owes me an apology for throwing up in my shoes in 1994.

 
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Old 11-15-2021, 10:35 PM   #7
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Still, it just seems,despite how amazing Jimmy's skills were, Billy's first instinct was right, he was a flaky ass junkie and took everyone down with him albeit in different ways.
That is 100% unavoidable if you're relying on a junkie. However, today Jimmy comes across as the most professional out of the group, and the most musically adept. He probably caused the most damage in his wake, but turned it around the best and gracefully faded into niche obscurity territory.

As much as I love D'Arcy...she probably has the worst public image now. I don't think she caused as many external problems as Jimmy or Billy, but she's become a punching bag and is tough to listen to, even from a fan's perspective. Her behavior now harkens to the picture many people had of the Pumpkins being dysfunctional, both as individuals and as a band. Her ongoing semi-public feud with Billy (and I guess James?) has likely damaged the "reunion"...although whatever hope was left was ultimately squashed by the music, no matter how many (admittedly awesome) stage props they had.

 
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Old 11-15-2021, 10:45 PM   #8
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in terms of human life yes

musically/creatively corgan all the way

 
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Old 11-15-2021, 11:10 PM   #9
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From the interview just after their penultimate show, track 32, around 6:13

https://ia800303.us.archive.org/23/i...900_d3_t08.mp3

Interviewer: Is there something that you would have done differently?

Billy: The biggest mistake that we made was not keeping the line-up intact. We made some rash decisions, particularly firing Jimmy in the wake of what happened in New York. We got some really poor advice, we were way in over our heads at that moment, we were on MTV every two seconds, we were the number one alternative band in the world. It's impossible to explain to anybody what that feels like, but you feel like you're on top of this wave that's going a thousand miles an hour, and our management promoted the idea that you can't stop. If you stop, this wave will just keep going on without you. Which of course isn't true. We really should have just taken a break, we should have taken some time off, everyone should have gone to Fiji and chilled out.
.

 
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Old 11-16-2021, 12:05 AM   #10
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Not to excuse Jimmy, but they all knew he was a junkie and that they were getting high all the time and were OK with it as long as the tour kept going well. And this had been going on since the beginning with Jimmy. It's nobody's fault but Jimmy (and Jonathan) what happened to them, but I don't think you can say the rest of them were innocent, either. They were perfectly fine having a junkie drummer when he was the best drummer in the world.

 
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Old 11-16-2021, 04:53 AM   #11
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The idea that Jimmy and Jonny were doing drugs while the rest of the band were in a corner sipping Oolong tea and eating Bok Choy is bogus.

In the early 90s music scene everyone was a junkie to some degree. The Pumpkins used to play gigs on hallucinogens during Gish/SD era.

 
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Old 11-16-2021, 11:15 AM   #12
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Yeah they were definitely all getting high, idk about doing heroin or similarly dangerous drugs regularly. I definitely wouldn't put hallucinogens in that category or really most anything else except heroic doses or polydrug use of stimulants.

 
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Old 11-16-2021, 11:54 AM   #13
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I would like the crew to start doing shows on Benadryl



As I understand it, taking too much Benadryl causes the worst hallucinations you could possibly experience, often involving spiders, shadow people, and "the hatman"

There's a subreddit for people who abuse this stuff nightly and seem to celebrate that it's destroying their minds

Like it will absolutely lead to dementia

Anyway, let's get the boys playing on this shit

 
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Old 11-16-2021, 12:40 PM   #14
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I don't think the other 3 were on drugs for SD or MCIS for either recording or touring. Billy said during that time that he tried the whole rockstar thing with the long hair and drugs with Gish and he didn't really think it worked for him, so he sobered up, got a haircut and changed his outlook. I believe him on this too. Richard Patrick said during his time with D'arcy that she was very serious and professional, and while she obviously sunk into drug abuse soon after, that element was not present in her life at the time. With all of those shows, how tight they played during that time, I have a hard time believing there was much if any substance abuse going besides a beer after a show or something. Just think, after a double album, while on a world tour, they went back into the studio to finish TAFH. Hard to do all of that there's any type of real drug use going on. Conversely, you can see why Jimmy's demons finally caught up with him when they did.

 
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Old 11-16-2021, 01:19 PM   #15
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Even if they were dabbling, it was clearly under enough control. It was obvious when it wasn't in control, both for Jimmy and D'Arcy. Maybe it was equally out of control at points for James and Billy, but it was hidden so that we will never know. Billy seems like too much of a control freak, though. Full blown addiction makes you a slave and I just don't believe it.

 
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Old 11-16-2021, 01:28 PM   #16
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corgan seems intense enough to will himself to be sober

like trump doesn't drink, you know

 
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Old 11-16-2021, 01:35 PM   #17
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Yeah, can't let anyone else influence a major decision cuz you're feeling generous. I speak of both.

 
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Old 11-16-2021, 01:38 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenDogGlynis View Post
I don't think the other 3 were on drugs for SD or MCIS for either recording or touring. Billy said during that time that he tried the whole rockstar thing with the long hair and drugs with Gish and he didn't really think it worked for him, so he sobered up, got a haircut and changed his outlook. I believe him on this too. Richard Patrick said during his time with D'arcy that she was very serious and professional, and while she obviously sunk into drug abuse soon after, that element was not present in her life at the time. With all of those shows, how tight they played during that time, I have a hard time believing there was much if any substance abuse going besides a beer after a show or something. Just think, after a double album, while on a world tour, they went back into the studio to finish TAFH. Hard to do all of that there's any type of real drug use going on. Conversely, you can see why Jimmy's demons finally caught up with him when they did.
I agree that they probably weren't regularly using hard drugs but... lol at no drug use at all.



And we know Jimmy was an addict during the whole thing and he's probably the most responsible for the "tight" playing, so idk how you can say they couldn't have pulled it off on drugs. The shows were just fine. They obviously practiced enough. It was just a few occasions outside of the actual playing where he fucked up enough for him to bite him. They were touring for a while before they did. If he hadn't found some strong ass heroin, they would have kept going.

 
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Old 11-16-2021, 03:18 PM   #19
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I've seen that concert and agree that Billy's eyes look like he was on something. I'm not saying it never happened at all. But I disagree with the notion that just because Jimmy could still play his drums while being a drug addict is some type of proof that drug use was frequent with the other members. You can get by with a guy who really knows how to play regardless if he's a heavy user. But I'm not sure that's really possible if the other 3 are using frequently. Unfortunately I never saw a live concert during that era, but everything on YouTube and the TAFH reissue is pretty great. The playing is really good and the band is in total sync, playing extended versions of songs, jamming to jackboot for twenty minutes, etc. Going into the studio while on tour to record some more after just finishing your double album, it's tough to believe you can do all that while using real drugs. I could see something like some anti anxiety pills being used a little too much to relieve the grind of the tour and to get some sleep before you have to get the next day in a new city and do the whole thing over. But whether they were using anything or not, it wasn't anywhere in the same universe as Jimmy.

 
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Old 11-16-2021, 03:47 PM   #20
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I think billyhader85 is right. Billy himself said they were on hallucinogens on both Gish and SD tours. The SD cabaret metro show is a good example: Billy looks high AF.

Let's remember they were just 20-something suburban kids having the time of their lives.

 
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Old 11-16-2021, 03:51 PM   #21
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I think D'Arcy was in the same universe as Jimmy, just different drugs. Nothing about that was casual.

 
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Old 11-16-2021, 04:31 PM   #22
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I remember there was a lil' interview with Corgan, and I want to say this was when they were on Bill Maher for some fucking reason, where he was insisting they didn't do any drugs and that he forbade anyone from having sex the night before a show? "It messes with the energy" or some shit.

Prick.

 
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Old 11-16-2021, 04:31 PM   #23
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should have hired a babysitter.

 
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Old 11-16-2021, 04:32 PM   #24
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I remember there was a lil' interview with Corgan, and I want to say this was when they were on Bill Maher for some fucking reason, where he was insisting they didn't do any drugs and that he forbade anyone from having sex the night before a show? "It messes with the energy" or some shit.

Prick.
I remember him saying this. such bullshit. and probably a joke because they probably broke it all the time.

 
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Old 11-16-2021, 07:05 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by GreenDogGlynis View Post
I've seen that concert and agree that Billy's eyes look like he was on something. I'm not saying it never happened at all. But I disagree with the notion that just because Jimmy could still play his drums while being a drug addict is some type of proof that drug use was frequent with the other members. You can get by with a guy who really knows how to play regardless if he's a heavy user. But I'm not sure that's really possible if the other 3 are using frequently. Unfortunately I never saw a live concert during that era, but everything on YouTube and the TAFH reissue is pretty great. The playing is really good and the band is in total sync, playing extended versions of songs, jamming to jackboot for twenty minutes, etc. Going into the studio while on tour to record some more after just finishing your double album, it's tough to believe you can do all that while using real drugs. I could see something like some anti anxiety pills being used a little too much to relieve the grind of the tour and to get some sleep before you have to get the next day in a new city and do the whole thing over. But whether they were using anything or not, it wasn't anywhere in the same universe as Jimmy.
I agree they were not using hard drugs regularly, but I do think Corgan was using psychedelics, he is clearly and obviously on mushrooms/LSD or I guess MAYBE MDMA/DXM/etc in that clip. It's not just his eyes. His behavior is classically both highly focused and completely crazy. There is no other explanation. Edit: I think you could be on the fence if you watch the whole show except XYU, but it's super obvious on XYU.

I don't think we're even disagreeing, but clearly it was possible for Corgan to play fine while on extremely mind-altering drugs. When I took LSD I couldn't even play guitar for more than a couple minutes before getting lost.

Last edited by reprise85 : 11-16-2021 at 07:13 PM.

 
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Old 11-16-2021, 07:08 PM   #26
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And I don't think that's a bad thing, even. What a peak experience, being on psychedelics playing crazy hard rock songs to stadiums of people. Very few people get to do something like that.

 
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Old 11-16-2021, 08:40 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by ilikeplanets View Post
I think D'Arcy was in the same universe as Jimmy, just different drugs. Nothing about that was casual.
DíArcy didnít get bad on drugs until 1998. She was always a big drinker tho.

 
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Old 11-18-2021, 02:01 AM   #28
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I agree they were not using hard drugs regularly, but I do think Corgan was using psychedelics, he is clearly and obviously on mushrooms/LSD or I guess MAYBE MDMA/DXM/etc in that clip. It's not just his eyes. His behavior is classically both highly focused and completely crazy. There is no other explanation. Edit: I think you could be on the fence if you watch the whole show except XYU, but it's super obvious on XYU.

I don't think we're even disagreeing, but clearly it was possible for Corgan to play fine while on extremely mind-altering drugs. When I took LSD I couldn't even play guitar for more than a couple minutes before getting lost.
Yeah, not disagreeing with you. Just trying to get the story straight, although it's no surprise there are inconsistencies. I remember in the Graceful Swans documentary them saying drugs were forbidden, and anyone who was found to do them was going to get kicked out of the band. I think they said that about alcohol too but I'm not sure.

Obviously that was untrue and they've been pretty forthcoming about the Gish era and LSD. It bums me out a little to hear there were shows played high in the SD era just because I kind of liked the idea that Billy just kinda gave up the rock star pretensions when he realized he couldn't pull it off and just decided to be himself. It doesn't ruin it for me or anything but whatever. Not surprised at all to hear about drug use in LA post MCIS as that seems to fit the overall vibe of that time.

 
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Old 11-18-2021, 02:17 AM   #29
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When I saw the Oceania tour, Corgan hinted that the band was on psychedelic hallucinogens, and I was like "Shut up Corgan. Stop lying. This music isn't cool enough for it to have been performed under the influence. You're all sober as fuck. Admit it."

Seriously, I think Corgan had an Alka-Seltzer tablet in a glass of water prior to being on stage.

 
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Old 11-18-2021, 02:44 AM   #30
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I saw a TBK era show (I know) and I guess the pot smoke pissed Corgan off because he bitched about it several times and literally pointed fingers in the direction he thought it was coming from.

 
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