[sleeper]

Originally Posted by Lie

Let me just re-word that too and say that this is from my perspective as things stand now, meaning that if there is a definite mental similarity I don't see it, or believe it. Obviously in general people belonging to the same religion seem to believe that they all do believe the same thing as each other, maybe this is even something that various groups of people KNOW...but I sure as hell don't know that. And obviously you, as an outsider, also believe that religious people in general, or at least people of similar religion, share this thing, even if it's not belief per se.

But I don't. I don't NOT believe/think it either but I don't know which is why I have to choose to see things this way and it seems the logical way for an outsider, or former insider, to see things.

I realize that in my comments above I'm almost saying that religion doesn't exist, but the question that always sticks in my mind is concerning what religion even is and what it consists of, and how thoroughly that structure can be removed. I'm sure you can remember from the Christian thread I made that I have a lot of interest in the line between religious/belief, and maybe at some point I will figure that all out, but for now I'm pretty much only in a position to say I don't know which again seems pretty logical as we're talking about a system based on belief rather than knowledge. So I think that religion is by nature a construction that is often invisible to knowledge, which is really interesting in itself, meaning that it essentially doesn't exist in the context of people like you and me who are seeking knowledge. At least that's how I feel about it. If that clarifies anything.

the question of what religion actually is is, obviously, central to this and everything and yet remains kind of unresolved. i think it depends on the exact usage. when we talk back and forth about "religious people" that means one thing, and what just qualifies as "Religion" is another. the meshing of those two seems to have led to some confusion. but, honestly, i dont know absolutely what it is, but i do have a good idea of what it isnt and what elements of it are essential to it, if all together incomplete

but i agree with your characterization of it as being something outside of knowledge, and thats whats both most interesting and infuriating about it. passively having beliefs or hypothetical positions about things that lie outside of knowledge, like the question of god, is fine, its when people start using that as the basis for real world action or allow it to infringe upon objective knowledge or reality, a la intelligent designers refusing to accept evolution, in spite of whatever mountain of evidence, and choosing faith instead. that is absolutely, absolutely inexcusable i think and represents the worst of what religion, or just faith in general, is capable of. everyone, to some degree or another, places faith above reason for things at some point for whatever, but i think the degree needed to entirely ignore what reality is telling your for something like that is basically the exclusive province of religion
but, yeah, i think by definition faith is apart from proof or reality and its actually a really weird feeling letting that idea run around your head for a second. every so often i allow myself to think that way and i can definitely understand the psychology of it all, and why people who have such a faith are so entirely impervious to outside claims against their belief that use objective evidence as a foundation. it can never work. its what yelling is to the deaf. but, really, it is incredibly interesting.

this is going to sound ridiculously contradictory, but i actualyl consider myself a pretty (pardon the tonnes of cheese that this word carries as baggage) 'spiritual' guy. this comes, though, 100% through connection with reality. or, exists AS a connection with reality. it exists as reality does. it seems like i cant even continue one word further without just bathing in cheese here. i dont know what to do. i think i kind of had this awakening to it last summer when i was sitting outside on a really warm windy day. if you can imagine the scene, there were squirrels running about, back and forth, here and then gone and then here again, and just trees rocking in the wind. thats it, but if you kind of eliminate every barrier that youve constructed to your perception of things, especially nature, and allow yourself to see whatever is there, you can kind of see the "order" of things. this sounds like the boring ravings of some drug addict or soemthing but its hard to escape that. its all very, i guess, buddhist at best and (oh god, im going to barf even typing these words) "new age" at worst.actually it isnt, what the fuck am i saying. its hard to avoid giving that impression, sure, but its not without substance and isnt at all so throwaway and tritel. the point is that i dont accept this idea that is sometimes put forth, that, because these thigns are "inherently unknowable" (i dont exactly agree with that anyways) that the raising of these questions is irrelevant and futile, if not damaging. i dont like that idea. i thnk there are very valid questions there

on a related note, a few days ago i read britannicas article on "religious experience" and the opening was really hilarious and interesting. enough so, i thought, to share with you:

specific experiences such as wonder at the infinity of the cosmos, the sense of awe and mystery in the presence of the holy, feelings of dependence on a divine power or an unseen order, the sense of guilt and anxiety accompanying belief in a divine judgment, and the feeling of peace that follows faith in divine forgiveness.

i always marvel at how words or ideas are defined words dictionaries and the like, i think its so interesting. i was obsessed before with looking up definitions for very common ideas, things that i knew perfectly well what their meaning was. its a real heady thing to do, i found. its weird