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-   -   Hey Elph, Can You Answer This Question For Me? (http://forums.netphoria.org/showthread.php?t=189040)

Disco King 07-29-2022 10:27 PM

Hey Elph, Can You Answer This Question For Me?
 
How the hell did industrial stuff become part of goth

You show up to a goth club, and half the people look like Robert Smith, and the other half are these leather-clad rivet-head guys. How the fuck is this the same subculture

Actually, it's not even 50/50. The industrial guys in leather s̶k̶i̶r̶t̶s̶ gaultiers and JNCO jeans outnumber the trad goths two-to-one.

Joey Goldberg 07-30-2022 11:13 AM

1 side loves the gloom, the other loves the doom

slunken 07-30-2022 11:26 AM

Ecstasy infiltrating the UK indie rock scene in the mid-80s sparking an interest in dance music

The more dour of the bunch looked back to OG Industrial bands like Throbbing Gristle and SPK for inspiration but with the capabilities of modern technology

Around the same time in Chicago the Wax Trax scene was huge

As for walking into a a club now, it's just people LARPing whatever era they like the best

topleybird 07-30-2022 11:32 AM

JNCO in the streets, Siouxsie in the sheets

slunken 07-30-2022 11:35 AM

lmao

slunken 07-30-2022 11:35 AM

"but daddy i love him"

Disco King 07-30-2022 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slunken (Post 4598310)
Ecstasy infiltrating the UK indie rock scene in the mid-80s sparking an interest in dance music

The more dour of the bunch looked back to OG Industrial bands like Throbbing Gristle and SPK for inspiration but with the capabilities of modern technology

Around the same time in Chicago the Wax Trax scene was huge

As for walking into a a club now, it's just people LARPing whatever era they like the best

Yeah, I figured industrial dance music is what made the link between industrial and goth. Post-punk is already often dancey. Once you make a dancey version of industrial, and the people dancing to it also wear black, it might be easier to merge the two scenes.

And yeah, anyone part of a pre-established subculture now is always going to be somewhat removed from the original context in which it formed. A hippy in 2020 is a person who read about what hippies did in the '60s and who made a conscious effort to emulate it. No judgement, I'm not going to gatekeep subcultures. But it's like, at some point, they Googled "goth fashion" and picked the parts they liked and put on the costume.

Elphenor 07-30-2022 11:12 PM

according to Genesis' autobio Ian Curtis called to sing the Throbbing Gristle song "Weeping" over the phone shortly before his suicide

they were close friends and both shared a love of Frank Sinatra

what we call post-punk now was always entangled with early industrial...folks ran in the same scenes and such

Elphenor 07-30-2022 11:21 PM

though specifically the word "Goth" means a lot of different things to different people and doesn't even necessarily have anything to do with music

Elphenor 07-30-2022 11:34 PM

a lot of people just have bad tastes...more thought was put into the fashion aspect of these groups than probably your garden variety rivethead is really capable of

TG's militarized look included a very deliberate attempt to make essentially designer camouflage...stuff like that

the whole Bromley Contingent (think Siouxsie) was involved in fashion way before they fell into music

Shadaloo 07-31-2022 12:42 AM

I'd say the Wax Trax scene has a lot to do with it.

See: Early Ministry going from synthpop to EBM/industro-dance within the space of a few years. Jim and Danny at WT were responsible for getting Bauhaus to come stateside for the first time, they blew up there immediately afterward.

Skinny Puppy were also pretty much looking like mohawked goblins by 1984, and Al was very enamored with them.

slunken 08-02-2022 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elphenor (Post 4598366)
according to Genesis' autobio Ian Curtis called to sing the Throbbing Gristle song "Weeping" over the phone shortly before his suicide

story i heard was he was just listening to 3rd annual report

slunken 08-02-2022 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elphenor (Post 4598368)

TG's militarized look included a very deliberate attempt to make essentially designer camouflage...stuff like that

they (around the time they broke up) were wearing a very specific kind of camo


you ever get into death in june? or is that too scary?

slunken 08-02-2022 07:14 PM

i want to talk about coil and late-80s cabaret voltaire records

slunken 08-02-2022 07:23 PM

Or the transition from camo-TG to PTV when Gen got kicked out of England when the police raided his house for video tapes of ritual sex, abuse, torment, and other x-rated materials.

or when coil included audio of children being abused

Worlds apart from skinny pale guys sucking in their cheeks at a local club trying to look like a mysterious vampire

to be sincere for a moment i think if you're looking for a moment when those lines blurred it would probably be SPK or skinny puppy? taking the grotesque inhuman/human parts of industrial and merging them with the romantic/pop-driven vampire parts of goth? cabaret voltaire had a really slow transition but i think always remained pretty "industrial" (ie - were never sexy vampires)

I feel like a real f## having conversations like this screw you guys lol

Shadaloo 08-05-2022 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slunken (Post 4598457)
or when coil included audio of children being abused

Okay, well, this is news to me. You wanna talk about Coil, I'm up for it, but...fuck was this?

slunken 08-05-2022 08:11 PM

I was being hyperbolic (who me?) but if memory serves me right there's some song in maybe Love's Secret Domain that has very nefarious sampling origins

OR I'm remembering wrong and it's very innocent and presented in a very nefarious way

I'm actually not totally versed in Coil so I'll admit that too. Gosh, look at me spreading rumors about Coil on the internet in 2022.

slunken 08-05-2022 08:12 PM

Please tell me everything you know about Coil

Shadaloo 08-05-2022 09:10 PM

One time Jhonn Balance jerked off on Trent's leather sofa at Nothing studios out of nowhere

My favorite album is a toss-up between Horse Rotorvator and Backwards (2015). Danny Hyde pushes a lot of crap but he did a good job on that one.

I've been around the discography a few times. A lot of the later stuff is impenetrable but everything's worth checking out once. The Music To Play In The Dark albums are goddamned masterpieces.

Amethyst Deceivers off the Autumn Equinox EP is...transcendant

slunken 08-05-2022 09:17 PM

the music to play in the dark albums are the only ones i've revisited aside from love's secret domain and horse rotorvator.

is that really all i need?

slunken 08-06-2022 11:59 AM

I read this insanely long fan-bio of the group on archive.org a few months ago, and also checked out their rejected Hellraiser soundtrack.

Really sucked to hear the one guy was an insane drunk w/ possible other mental illnesses piled on

Are their any particularly good live video shows to watch? Do you think they had a "peak era"? It seems like they had many peaks in their career. I hear people saying different albums from different decades are their best.

Supposedly the band never made much profit but was bankrolled by Sleazy's album-design money?

come on man, feed me with info

Shadaloo 08-06-2022 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slunken (Post 4598642)
the music to play in the dark albums are the only ones i've revisited aside from love's secret domain and horse rotorvator.

is that really all i need?

I'd say definitely give Backwards 2015 a spin, and check out A Thousand Lights In a Darkened Room and Ape of Naples at least once. Stolen and Contaminated Songs is Love's Secret Domain outtakes but it kinda has its own trippy little identity. I'm also pretty partial to Black Antlers but that's a me thing. Moon's Milk In Four Phases, too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by slunken (Post 4598665)
I read this insanely long fan-bio of the group on archive.org a few months ago, and also checked out their rejected Hellraiser soundtrack.

Really sucked to hear the one guy was an insane drunk w/ possible other mental illnesses piled on

Are their any particularly good live video shows to watch? Do you think they had a "peak era"? It seems like they had many peaks in their career. I hear people saying different albums from different decades are their best.

Supposedly the band never made much profit but was bankrolled by Sleazy's album-design money?

come on man, feed me with info

I tend to not do a lot of youtube show watching, it always makes me miserable because I find myself wishing I could have been there. But Coil weren't your everyday touring working band, they did sporadic dates in their earliest days before basically not touring for decades until the early 2000s, when they got dressed up in these insane white furry suits and Jhonn would run around screaming half the time. It was more performance art than typical concert. There's a series of live albums called Live Four to Live One and "...And The Ambulance Died In His Arms" that are very much worth a listen.

JB had very longstanding mental health issues and his alcoholism eventually wound up killing him when he fell off a balcony drunk. It's rather sad. There's footage of their very last show ever and he's basically falling apart at the seams.

"Peak" is a difficult term to apply to them. Horse Rotorvator is an incredibly influential album for the likes of NIN of course but it's a pretty commonly held opinion that they really hit the top of their game and did their best work in the late 90's with the MTPITD albums, particularly the first one. They called their earlier, harsher period their "solar" phase and their later period their "lunar"" phase. Ape Of Naples is viewed by a lot of people as a beautiful final work.

slunken 08-06-2022 05:54 PM

thanks for the listening recs. Haven't heard Backwards or thousand lights before.

nothing worth watching, then? not a single live show? absolutely not a single live show worth watching?

Shadaloo 08-07-2022 11:45 AM



Last show ever. Only performance of Unhappy Rabbits.

This one's pretty decent as I recall:


Joey Goldberg 08-07-2022 12:34 PM

smashingjj, can you tell me about Recoil?

Elphenor 08-07-2022 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slunken (Post 4598455)
they (around the time they broke up) were wearing a very specific kind of camo


you ever get into death in june? or is that too scary?

yeah Gen wrote about it, a fashion designer sewed their jackets (can't remember her name)

Yes I I like Death in June

Elphenor 08-07-2022 01:12 PM

I read Cosey's autobio too which was interesting as you get an idea of what is Gen being an unreliable narrator and what probably did actually happen as it appears exactly the same in both accounts

slunken 08-07-2022 01:41 PM

i'm reading that right now lol

Elphenor 08-07-2022 01:58 PM

and, not to try and "cancel" them, but Gen was genuinely a crazed individual

Elphenor 08-07-2022 02:27 PM

industrial, like everything else, devolved into self-parody

but TG really were the next evolution in rocknroll

more primitive, more frightening, subversive, sexy etc. than any of their contemporaries

and with a cult-like frontman that made them more like a pop act than something exp like NWW


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