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Originally Posted by sleeper
i think with germans its more a matter of genetics that culture (one kind of is the product or influence of the other, though, so im wary to make this type of distinction). i mean they dont have to think of it in those terms ("genetics") but thats the underlying sentiment in any feeling of connection or added responsibility for the holocaust, i think. im not saying its right or wrong though at this point, im just saying. all kinds of fishy ideas are thrown around by some germans ive read comment on this, like how its the german character of "order and obedience" that made it possible and that thats a flaw that transcends that one incident and is worthy of consideration
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Well, possibly many Germans do feel suspicious of their own genetics, but I think it's pretty silly to focus on there being an actual genetic “flaw” in Germans that makes them predisposed to the kind of behavior that contributed to the Holocaust. Not even to wonder, but just to focus and internalize. I realize you're just saying this is something people talk about, and I can definitely understand how that would be a particular obsession, but I think it's up to individual people to overcome that sort of pressure and live their lives regardless. I think putting that kind of concern and extra effort into guilt and worry is just the flip side of self-victimization and revenge, and they all lead to the same place.
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but where or how does your own specific family roots intersect with or relate to the "ethnicity" that they are a part of? of course people are nuts with this shit and take it to ridiculous extremes and talk about ethnicity or race in the most impossibly blanket terms, but at the same time i dont think its entirely without merit, in itself or as food for personal thought. its not without significance. i mean why do those cultures and histories exist as they do? theyre not just totally the product of these incidental macro social or environmental forces, on some level they connect with the peoples that made them. even if they didnt "make" them and they are somewhat irrelevant or non-significant in origin, the same peoples were influenced by them, the same way any peoples were influenced by their surroundings and the course of their development, so, as i suggested, it inevitably feeds back in
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I don't know where they intersect, but people are obviously more than culture. It's not just that one family is only a small part of history, it's than people in themselves transcend culture by not fitting into the big picture in an obvious way. Of course looking at things altogether it has to add up somewhere, but looking at history is looking at a summary of events in historical terms, not human ones. So I guess I don't draw an actual line there. I'm interested in historical events because I'm interested in history and humanity, and I'm interested in how people my family reacted to or came out of those events because those things had an indirect effect on me. I have to re-interpret history through the lives of people who have affected me to apply it practically. I don't internalize the stuff directly.
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now i come upon this recurring thought: do you then identify yourself as just being, you know, "human"? maybe im too stuck in my own paradigm to see that not everyone even has that urge to identify to begin with, and i dont even consciously identify myself with my own background per se, but i do realize that such a strain of thought exists and is pretty powerful. what would you attach yourself to, then, is what im asking? in the back of your mind
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That's just it. I think being human and yourself is the most important thing, and I think people lose that very quickly through giving up parts of their identification to other things. I don't think that identifying yourself through politics, marriage, religion, etc., is an inherently bad thing at all. For some people those things are really positive. I just think it's important for a person to make those things work for them instead of vice versa. The minute that the needs of your party, country, family, church, etc., transcend your own needs as a human being, and you are no longer using those things for your own benefit but they are controlling you without question, there is potential for a lot of bad shit to go down. I honestly think that people cannot be truly destructive to the world and people around them without first being self-destructive.
As for what things I personally attach myself to, it's varied my entire life. As precious as it may sound, I identify mostly as a person who is curious and hungry to see the world from as many perspectives as possible and then attempt to preserve and create something from that. In other words, I identify with writers and artists of various kinds I admire, and with people who like to play things in different contexts, or people who have been forced to define their own surroundings, way more than I do with people who share my genetics, culture, political views, “background,” etc. Basically I think people mainly identify with those who are in a similar situation to them, and it just so happens that I wasn't raised to have a particular solidarity with anything simply defined the way a lot of people are, so I end up more identifying with other people who didn't have that either. That might sound pretentious as hell but it's the only way I know how to put it.
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yeah but who says its ever rational? theres just these ideas of "blood" and you and some other armenian or german or korean are somehow kin. i know that as much if not more difference exists within races than across them so when it comes to these strong feelings of identification its usually due more to sentimental or irrational impulses than some kind of studied connection. but, even with that knowledge, its difficult to escape the thought: those other people in a way define you. when i trace the course of my subconscious thoughts on this after the fact, i see that my thoughts always work as if im looking for evidence that can help me understand myself. thats what i see going on in my head without any conscious intervention. but, yes, its easy to suppose that without an underlying sense of racism none of this would be so, but i dont think thats necessarily true.
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Well, yeah, they do define me, but in a way that “green” defines a tree. You can say I'm Korean, and that's true. You can also say I'm Irish, but I'm like less than 10% Irish, so at that point it gets kind of silly, and where do you draw the line? It's like the one-drop rule. It's like e-prime. I don't think people should actually talk like that, saying “a characteristic of that tree is greenness” but at the same time you have to be aware that the only truly closed, balanced statement you can make about yourself is “I am me.” Everything else is open to speculation and its own definition. I'm not just a sum of my parts, I'm more importantly defined by how I react to those parts, and that element of reaction and that kind of ability to self-define is a purely human characteristic which I think too often gets lost among larger causes. What people are actively is much more important than what they are passively, and yet, those passive elements ARE important and significant because they are opportunities for active definition to present themselves, and how you use them is entirely up to you. “Korean” or “from the Midwest” or “female” are sort of launching pads for me rather than pure stationary elements.
Like I sometimes wonder if my being largely Korean and German has anything to do with me being kind of an anxious and obsessive person. And I can say that and make fun of myself and talk about it all while really wondering if it's genetic or something. And I know that I'm genetically prone to cavities but I can either brush and floss and have beautiful teeth or neglect that and end up with a rotting stinking mouth full of puss and blood like the British and eating soft foods, but really it's the end result that matters, so while I may be inclined to obsess, I can obsess over the results rather than the predisposition (WHICH DOESN'T MAKE IT ANY LESS INTERESTING, BUT YOU GET MY POINT, I MEAN THAT IS MY POINT.)
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and i agree with the "for fun" aspect of it. italians really provide rich fodder for this
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HA, I would imagine.
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also i really loathe these people that go to all these great lenghts to map their entire family tree and shit. theres something seriously sick about that i think
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Actually my grandfather (who by the way is a full-blooded German but from a family that has been in the United States since the days the original Protestants set up camp) did that (shortly before he began having symptoms of Alzheimer's, if that says anything). There is in a way something sick about it but I always enjoyed looking at it because it's actually pretty interesting.
So really I think developing an interest or curiosity regarding history and race and culture even to the point of minor obsession and offensiveness to other people (like Julio) can be fine, but it's not okay to internalize it directly or expect other people to do the same. Whew, that was long.
