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ilikeplanets 03-17-2023 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vixnix (Post 4619948)

There’s a lot of talk now about the ineffectiveness of SSRIs - for the last 20 years people have trusted medical professionals in taking these.

I never bought the story about SSRIs, because they never helped my symptoms (anxiety/OCD, not depression) despite being pushed as the "best and most effective treatment" for most common mental health concerns. I've had psychiatrists that would just write me off as non compliant and not work with me upon my refusal to take yet another version of an SSRI. I'm very soured towards therapy and psychiatry because of that, and haven't tried it since my early 20s. Luckily, I'm able to self manage quite well, because those attitudes could definitely alienate someone and wind up harming them. Though from what I hear, therapy and psychiatry have improved greatly since then.

So apparently I feel one way about vaccines and the opposite about mental health care. Am I sciencing right?

vixnix 03-17-2023 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilikeplanets (Post 4619949)
Well, the eradication of diseases sure seems like proof to me

For polio, definitely. But for pertussis (and meningococcal B in NZ where arguably incidence was waning before the introduction of a new, relatively untested vaccine) it’s less straightforward. I still vaccinate…but the vitriol that was directed at anti-vaxers when there was a pertussis outbreak in NSW 2010-11, when it was not at all clear that unvaccinated children had anything to do with the outbreak…was something I just couldn’t get on board with

ilikeplanets 03-17-2023 08:10 PM

Well it's unvaccinated people that have to do with the outbreaks. No one here gets chicken pox anymore, I saw that change in my lifetime.

redbreegull 03-17-2023 08:45 PM

Are your kids being indoctrinated by the Cult of Free Will?

It's time to have the talk.

Speak to your kids about determinism today.

vixnix 03-17-2023 09:29 PM

I think that’s true for many communicable diseases, I’m just not sure it’s universally true. I agree with you about chicken pox. My kids caught it when they were 3 and 9 months and my older kid still has a small scar near his nose because of it. It wasn’t on the schedule when we left NZ, and in Australia the first dose was given at 12 months, at that stage. So they were both unvaccinated. If I could do it over, i would have paid out of pocket in NZ to have my older son vaccinated.

But in the case of pertussis in NSW, it appeared to be a vaccine efficacy/longevity issue, because immunity wore off relatively quickly. But anti-vax parents were still abused and blamed even though it wasn’t clear their choices made any difference to the outbreak.

It was similar with the newly developed MeNZB (tm) vaccine in New Zealand. I wasn’t sure the vaccine was responsible for reducing incidence of meningococcal B, but I vaccinated anyway. But didn’t find it easy to stomach the insults and abuse that parents faced when they declined it for their kids.

Anti-anti-vax sentiment just has a bit of a witch hunt/scapegoat vibe to me.

ilikeplanets 03-17-2023 11:21 PM

I do understand vaccine hesitance with regards to specific new vaccines. But I have no patience for those choosing to refuse highly effective and safe childhood vaccines, and can't tolerate how it's not just about "vaccine hesitance" but becomes a whole conspiracy theory lifestyle, buy my essential oils to cure cancer big pharma lies.

redbreegull 03-18-2023 11:34 AM

There are very few people with truly reasonable and legitimate vaccination objections. And I've never met a hardcore vaxxer who didn't know that there are literally some people who cannot safely be vaccinated and respect that.

But if you choose not to vaccinate against the incredible amount of scientific evidence because of personal feelings, that's both illogical and disrespectful to everyone else's choices around you because you are putting them in increased danger. You get vaccines the same reason you shouldn't drive 120 miles an hour on the highway. It's not just for you and your family.

Specific cases and nuances exist always, but I don't see any kind of witch-hunt against vaccine hesitancy. If we are identifying cognitive biases, it's much easier to discern the antisocial and narcissistic patterns in antivaxxer thought.

ilikeplanets 03-18-2023 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redbreegull (Post 4619963)

But if you choose not to vaccinate against the incredible amount of scientific evidence because of personal feelings, that's both illogical and disrespectful to everyone else's choices around you because you are putting them in increased danger. You get vaccines the same reason you shouldn't drive 120 miles an hour on the highway. It's not just for you and your family.

This is a HUGE component of my ire about it. I don't want your kids bringing the fucking measles into my space because you're willfully wrong about what causes autism.

ilikeplanets 03-18-2023 11:42 AM

Nothing more rage inducing to me than an anti masker, either. There's literally no risk to you, you're just trying to be SpEcIaL and contrary. I'm not a sheep for wanting to prevent the spreading of dangerous diseases

duovamp 03-18-2023 01:31 PM

People who don't understand vaccines are people who don't understand statistics. There's always a Gaussian distribution for outcomes of any individual who received a vaccine. Idiots like to point to outliers and act like that's the rule. It's especially hard to teach large numbers of people how statistically they benefit from doing things. Plus there's the problem where individuals act extremely selfishly - WELL IF EVERYBODY ELSE GETS ONE I DON'T NEED ONE - which is a race to the bottom.

redbreegull 03-18-2023 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duovamp (Post 4619966)
People who don't understand vaccines are people who don't understand statistics. There's always a Gaussian distribution for outcomes of any individual who received a vaccine. Idiots like to point to outliers and act like that's the rule.

yes. it's as stupid as pointing to instances in which seatbelts have killed or maimed people instead of saving them

ilikeplanets 03-18-2023 03:27 PM

My own father is so right wing that he hates seat belt laws and says he sees "Hillary Clinton's smug face" every time he buckles up. Uh, yikes.I have never heard of anyone else hating seat belts, but of course they do! :erm::erm:

ilikeplanets 03-18-2023 03:30 PM

DON'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO WITH MY BODY, UNLESS I'M PREGNANT

redbreegull 03-18-2023 04:24 PM

Have you seen that viral news clip from the 80s with Californians freaking out about communism because dui and seatbelt laws?

MyOneAndOnly 03-18-2023 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ovary (Post 4619907)
i do have some general and significant concerns with science as an epistemological method:

1. results and consensus is constantly changing. this is an intrinsic feature of science, and in some ways/instances one of its strengths. *but* it makes it difficult to trust "the current science" as a metric for truth.

2. scientific knowledge is so specialized and bureaucratized, it is difficult to translate the actual scientific consensus into terms laypeople can understand and discuss. genes, for instance, are so complex that it is really impossible for us on this board to have any kind of discussion about them at all that really relates to or reflects "the current science." we are discussing a dumbed-down version that is not accurate, but that dumbed-down version is all we have access to. this makes regular people forced to "trust" the experts. i don't trust the experts.

3. because scientific research is corrupt. this happens in blatant ways, such as the food companies' infiltration of agricultural, medical, and nutritional science, or the fact that the federal government controls most grant funding. but there are also more banal forms of corruption, such as the "publish or perish" mentality forcing individuals and labs to make sexy claims and find significant results if they want to make career progress. and there's also a lot of groupthink and social pressure to both work on certain areas and find certain results. the groupthink is exacerbated by the intense specialization and bureaucratization i mentioned earlier.

4. scientific knowledge is based philosophically in empiricism, or an assumption that the sensory devices of human beings are our best access to the truth of reality. we are now able to extend our sensory experience through technology like x-rays and telescopes and carbon dating and whatever else. i do not trust that the human senses are an accurate depiction of reality. even if i were to concede that, i think it is obvious that the human sensory experience is extremely limited and distorted. i do not trust that what we see is what is actually happening. you might say "well, the senses are all we have, so we have to trust them." yes, i agree, and i do trust that they are good enough to get along okay here on planet earth, but i think there is a lot more out there. specifically, i think that we can access to non-empirical forms of truth through imagination, theological revelation and reflection, and emotion. science has no framework to explore these apprehensions of reality, and so ignores them and often actively discounts them.

so, my issue with genes kind of fires off on all these fronts. first off, i am absolutely unable to access the scientific consensus itself without years of study that i have no interest in pursuing. i'm not going to profess belief in something i can't even begin to understand. second, scientific consensus is changing, and what i'd be studying/reading about now will likely disproven later anyway, *especially* in such a new and complex field like genetics. third, i will not put uninformed trust in "experts" because of the ways all scientific knowledge is corrupt. in the case of genetics research, i assume it's largely tied up in the interests of the pharmaceutical industries.

and finally, philosophically, what are the questions that "genetics science" can answer for me? why i look like my father? why i am an alcoholic? why i am struck with certain illnesses at certain times? there are scientific answers to those questions that involve "genes," but there are also emotional answers, imaginative answers, and theological answers. the latter are generally more useful and interesting to me.


Ovary explaining how science is useless


MyOneAndOnly 03-18-2023 05:09 PM

I don't have a thorough knowledge of the science behind the Tacoma Narrows bridge, but I trust that it's sound when I drive my science based car across it.

MyOneAndOnly 03-18-2023 05:16 PM

It's very possible to be a spiritual or religious person AND accept science as valid. Millions... if not billions of people do so

vixnix 03-18-2023 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilikeplanets (Post 4619964)
This is a HUGE component of my ire about it. I don't want your kids bringing the fucking measles into my space because you're willfully wrong about what causes autism.

Has there been a measles outbreak that risked affecting your kids, or is your ire directed at a hypothetical outbreak?

There was a measles outbreak in my mother’s home country of Samoa in 2019. The vaccination rate had dropped - vaccine hesitancy was caused by (among other things) two babies dying in 2018 from incorrectly prepared doses of MMR. The vaccination rate (first dose of MMR at 1 year) had been 91% in 2013 and dropped to 31% right before the outbreak.

Back in the 1980s my mum vaccinated us but a lot of her Samoan relatives didn’t vaccinate their kids. It’s true they didn’t understand statistics - most of them had never studied it and they were brought to New Zealand for factory jobs that didn’t require them to learn anything academic when they arrived. They had also been the target of political ads scapegoating them for the woes of stagflation in the 1970s, had been subject to dawn raids to locate overstayers, experienced racism in the workplace, in stores, and yes - at the Dr’s office and hospitals etc.

I think middle class parents who have had every opportunity to furnish themselves with knowledge and choose to be ignorant are annoying in many respects - not just about vaccination, but also with regards to education policy, ownership of combustion engines and use, single use plastic, fast fashion, food production, etc.

But vaccine hesitancy includes a larger group than this privileged group. So if you spray hate generally in that direction you’re also targeting people who haven’t had the same opportunities as you to learn the necessary facts and processes in science and statistics to help you process information about vaccines, and people who haven’t had the same experience as you building trust in Dr.’s offices and healthcare services generally, because they’ve received a different level of service to you, caused by the biases and shortfalls of the professional healthcare workforce.

My Dad worked in scientific research institutes most of my childhood so I grew up surrounded by it and was good at it, at school. But I still do not get the emotion that people feel about a lack of education that causes people to make difference decisions to them. My emotional response is sadness and curiosity. But I guess that’s because I most often come across vaccine hesitancy in good people who have been good and kind to me, and who are interested in doing the best thing for their family and community but just have a totally different idea about what that involves

vixnix 03-18-2023 05:20 PM

Duo, MOAO, ilp and rbg are all white or white passing, and have college degrees. And you’re all angry at my brown cousins who experienced racism in classrooms with few brown teachers, so who dropped out early and got jobs in retail and manufacturing to support their parents on similar low incomes. I dunno it just feels a bit like punching down

vixnix 03-18-2023 05:25 PM

Like I get you being angry at people like you (white, College educated) being wilfully dumb about vaccines. I just wish you would specify that rather than doing this blanket hate thing

MyOneAndOnly 03-18-2023 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilikeplanets (Post 4619968)
My own father is so right wing that he hates seat belt laws and says he sees "Hillary Clinton's smug face" every time he buckles up. Uh, yikes.I have never heard of anyone else hating seat belts, but of course they do! :erm::erm:

My grandfather used to cut the seatbelts out of cars when he bought them. He said "it's better to be "thrown clear" of a crash. How he expected to be thrown clear without going through the windshield of his Ford Crown Victoria, I have no idea.

He died at 65 from heart and lung failure, after a 50 year 2 pack per day cigarette habit. He called anti cigarette advocates "hippy liars". And when he was in the ICU 2 months after retiring (3 months before he died) he told the doctor he didn't believe his diabetes diagnosis cause "he's been healthy his whole life!"

RIP to the greatest generation

vixnix 03-18-2023 05:58 PM

I think they’re partly called the greatest generation because of their work ethic and resilience. One of my grandfathers is still alive and is 105. He caught COVID last year in his rest home, spent only one full day in bed, and described it as “not that bad”

vixnix 03-18-2023 06:00 PM

Meanwhile, I freaked out after being a bit wheezy on the first night and called my doctor saying I had a fever and difficulty breathing and then went on paxlovid just to be safe. I am pretty pathetic in comparison. My generation is maybe the whiniest generation

ilikeplanets 03-18-2023 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vixnix (Post 4619979)
Like I get you being angry at people like you (white, College educated) being wilfully dumb about vaccines. I just wish you would specify that rather than doing this blanket hate thing

The specific type of person I was talking about was pretty clear, especially when I brought up essential oils and big pharma. You know very well where I live and that I'm not referring to factory workers across the world from me. Don't try to shame me for having negative opinions about willful idiots in my own country. They do impact me, and impact the nightmarish political situation I have to deal with.

vixnix 03-18-2023 06:19 PM

Generally though, if you are only referring to a subset of anti-vaxers (and the uneducated manual labourers also exist in large numbers in the U.S., as well as the long term unemployed, etc.) maybe it is better to be clear about that each time you vent

It doesn’t have any effect on me because I’m on an anti-vaxer. But in my experience it would have a negative effect on a non-vaxing parent who was outside of that subset you are angry with, but just heard you making comments generally about people who don’t vax.

I’m not trying to shame you. I’m just describing my discomfort with that blanket shaming approach

redbreegull 03-18-2023 06:23 PM

I’d have to do research, and should, but I have some hunches about the demographic breakdown of antivaxx ideology

vixnix 03-18-2023 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vixnix (Post 4619981)
I think they’re partly called the greatest generation because of their work ethic and resilience. One of my grandfathers is still alive and is 105. He caught COVID last year in his rest home, spent only one full day in bed, and described it as “not that bad”

I should mention that NZ’s “draconian” COVID policy, where we locked down early and kept our borders closed (and assisted by our geographic isolation and being an island nation) meant that my Grandfather had received 3 doses of the Pfizer vaccine before he was exposed to COVID and was given Paxlovid straight away as a high risk patient. So it’s entirely possible it was not that bad. The shitty COVID death lottery spared our family

MyOneAndOnly 03-18-2023 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vixnix (Post 4619981)
I think they’re partly called the greatest generation because of their work ethic and resilience. One of my grandfathers is still alive and is 105. He caught COVID last year in his rest home, spent only one full day in bed, and described it as “not that bad”

i thought it was because the ones in Allied countries won the war.

MyOneAndOnly 03-18-2023 06:28 PM

american boomers couldn't even beat little Vietnam...

FTR I'm paraphrasing my other grandfather

MyOneAndOnly 03-18-2023 06:29 PM

"goddamn Jane Fonda and lazy hippie kids!!"

vixnix 03-18-2023 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redbreegull (Post 4619986)
I’d have to do research, and should, but I have some hunches about the demographic breakdown of antivaxx ideology

I think we share a hunch about anti-vax ideology

Although in NZ, specific to the Covid-19 vax, it was young Māori who were among biggest groups for vaccine refusal, and younger people generally, and the main theory I’ve heard for that is viral (ironic term) reels on TikTok, which are funnier and slicker than anything a government public health comms team can match, and which spread an anti-vax message more effectively than anything Govt/health agencies could produce to counter it

vixnix 03-18-2023 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MyOneAndOnly (Post 4619988)
i thought it was because the ones in Allied countries won the war.

Oh true. In NZ they’re revered for their work ethic and ability to make personal sacrifices and delay gratification

That makes sense about winning the war. A lot of them would have come home to land parcels as a reward for military service, and became farmers, so straight into another life of sacrifice and hard graft

My grandfather was too young for WWI and was a conscientious objector in WWII. So he never went to war or claimed any part of it but is still one of the hardest working people I know. Maybe he felt he had something to prove

vixnix 03-18-2023 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redbreegull (Post 4619986)
I’d have to do research, and should, but I have some hunches about the demographic breakdown of antivaxx ideology

I meant to say though - there’s a difference between antivaxx ideology and vaccine hesitancy. But if you shame people simply because their children are unvaccinated and might give your kids the measles, you’re treating two different groups of people the same way

vixnix 03-18-2023 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MyOneAndOnly (Post 4619988)
i thought it was because the ones in Allied countries won the war.

I think I’ve always related it to living through The Great Depression

ilikeplanets 03-18-2023 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vixnix (Post 4619993)
I meant to say though - there’s a difference between antivaxx ideology and vaccine hesitancy. But if you shame people simply because their children are unvaccinated and might give your kids the measles, you’re treating two different groups of people the same way

I can dislike one group personally, but I still want my kids and myself the fuck away from anyone with the measles (or pick your preventable illness). That has nothing to do with skin color or economic circumstance on their part, and everything to do with the normal desire to avoid sickness. I hope there can be sane worldwide vaccine education amd access efforts.

I can be more sympathetic to vaccine hesitancy in the latter group, but I still shouldn't have to accept that as completely okay, even if they are less at "fault." Contagious and harmful diseases are still contagious and harmful.

MyOneAndOnly 03-18-2023 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vixnix (Post 4619992)
Oh true. In NZ they’re revered for their work ethic and ability to make personal sacrifices and delay gratification

That makes sense about winning the war. A lot of them would have come home to land parcels as a reward for military service, and became farmers, so straight into another life of sacrifice and hard graft

My grandfather was too young for WWI and was a conscientious objector in WWII. So he never went to war or claimed any part of it but is still one of the hardest working people I know. Maybe he felt he had something to prove

here after WW2 participants got the "GI bill" when they came back. Basically college tuition (cause it was never free in the USA) and other financial perks.

All the indigenous land had been stolen by then. The last time they gave away other peoples' land here (I THINK) was after the Civil War. I found records of one of my ancestors who fought the English in the war of 1812, and he was given 80 acres by the Federal government ... in 1850.

Lots of promises to give land to freed slaves.. but that NEVER happened.

vixnix 03-18-2023 07:23 PM

You can accept it as not OK, and you can want your kids to avoid illness, and you can still be empathetic and relate in a non-judgemental way (so, not making assumptions about why their kids are not vaxed, but asking questions and listening) to the group whose choices are different to yours.

I guess actually we agree about that. Maybe we are talking past each other a bit

ilikeplanets 03-18-2023 07:35 PM

Yeah, this style of conversation gets jumbled pretty quickly

ilikeplanets 03-18-2023 07:38 PM

Del. Spread love!

Cool As Ice Cream 03-19-2023 01:48 PM

DEL SPREAD MEASLES!


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