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-   -   Sleeper's Amazin' Asians (http://forums.netphoria.org/showthread.php?t=117237)

mercurial 04-06-2006 07:17 PM

what was up with a Chinese actress playing the lead in Memoirs of a Geisha

and blue eyes in the poster?

sleeper 04-06-2006 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeviousJ
I'm just pointing out that nobody can tell asians* apart!
























*or their writing systems anyway


ok so google lied to me with the characters. not everyones omnipotent like you alright. dont have to rub it in my face like that dude, thats cold


so how did you do guessing the people apart? honestly. im curious

Lie 04-07-2006 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleeper
but you do have more interest in that than you do in, say, israel-palestine or whatever other troubled region, right?

I would say that right now I have more interest in it, yes, but that hasn't always been the case. It's only fairly recently that I've really had much real interest in it, to be honest.

Quote:

why would that be if not because you are part korean?
Well, I can think of lots of reasons, most of which could apply to anyone, as you can see yourself...

Quote:

granted, the two koreas are way more interesting to me personally and im not korean, but i would just naturally assume that theres something else going on there with you.
Yes, there is definitely something, but again, quite recent.

Quote:

consciously or otherwise, i guess is the point
i mean i dont really think about armenia often but, for instance, i was reading some book recently and came across a paragraph on armenia and it kind of instantly piqued my interest despite myself. i just think people naturally have this interminable desire to understand their roots or where they came from, and its hard to not feel as though its a part of you. like do you think all germans, no matter whether or not they have any direct lineage to anything nazi, dont think about the holocaust of hitler at all? its really hard to escape these thoughts. or maybe just for me, i dont know
Well, Germans living in Germany, I assume you mean, sure. So I think it's more a matter of culture than genetics. Genetics are a completely different, mysterious thing, and because of people leaving their roots and immigrating to first world countries there are all these other levels of culture created, and eventually, new genetic pools.

And obviously if we're talking about the Holocaust, I think most people who are educated enough to KNOW about the Holocaust end up thinking about it no matter what they are. But I assume you mean in sort of a guilty or responsible or cautious way? I only feel cautious in terms of my actual family roots and the genetics or learned behavior therein. It has very little to do with whole cultures or historical events.

I mean, I'm more interested in Korea because my father grew up there and obviously that affected him, than because of Korean history and how that applies to me. I won't deny that there is some genetic and historical interest, but that's mostly a fun, curious, for the hell of it kind of thing. I identify much more with certain racial and cultural dilemmas in being American and of obvious minority descent, which is overall an incredibly American thing, since being just about anyone in America, has, at one time or another, produced certain racial and cultural absurdities pertaining to the gap between culture and ethnicity, and for me that sort of racial absurdity resonates stronger than any kind of actual cultural identification. I've been numbed to the concept of race and culture identification, which is probably the reason I've only recently taken more of an interest in the Koreas.

Quote:

stuff about the Koreas
Yeah, I have been following it, though it's really hard for me to feel much about it either way. If anything, it's more interesting than the Israel-Palestine conflict because there's a sense of possible progress.

What it all means, I have no idea. I'm just very curious.

DeviousJ 04-07-2006 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleeper
ok so google lied to me with the characters. not everyones omnipotent like you alright. dont have to rub it in my face like that dude, thats cold


so how did you do guessing the people apart? honestly. im curious

Well I got your Yakuza selection right, but the others were kinda variable. I mean you can't always tell anyway, China itself is made up of a collection of different ethnicities from the different tribes who used to control various areas. Someone shoul do a 'which european country are these people from' quiz

sleeper 04-07-2006 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lie
I would say that right now I have more interest in it, yes, but that hasn't always been the case. It's only fairly recently that I've really had much real interest in it, to be honest.



Well, I can think of lots of reasons, most of which could apply to anyone, as you can see yourself...



Yes, there is definitely something, but again, quite recent.



Well, Germans living in Germany, I assume you mean, sure. So I think it's more a matter of culture than genetics. Genetics are a completely different, mysterious thing, and because of people leaving their roots and immigrating to first world countries there are all these other levels of culture created, and eventually, new genetic pools.

And obviously if we're talking about the Holocaust, I think most people who are educated enough to KNOW about the Holocaust end up thinking about it no matter what they are. But I assume you mean in sort of a guilty or responsible or cautious way? I only feel cautious in terms of my actual family roots and the genetics or learned behavior therein. It has very little to do with whole cultures or historical events.

I mean, I'm more interested in Korea because my father grew up there and obviously that affected him, than because of Korean history and how that applies to me. I won't deny that there is some genetic and historical interest, but that's mostly a fun, curious, for the hell of it kind of thing. I identify much more with certain racial and cultural dilemmas in being American and of obvious minority descent, which is overall an incredibly American thing, since being just about anyone in America, has, at one time or another, produced certain racial and cultural absurdities pertaining to the gap between culture and ethnicity, and for me that sort of racial absurdity resonates stronger than any kind of actual cultural identification. I've been numbed to the concept of race and culture identification, which is probably the reason I've only recently taken more of an interest in the Koreas.



Yeah, I have been following it, though it's really hard for me to feel much about it either way. If anything, it's more interesting than the Israel-Palestine conflict because there's a sense of possible progress.

What it all means, I have no idea. I'm just very curious.


i think with germans its more a matter of genetics that culture (one kind of is the product or influence of the other, though, so im wary to make this type of distinction). i mean they dont have to think of it in those terms ("genetics") but thats the underlying sentiment in any feeling of connection or added responsibility for the holocaust, i think. im not saying its right or wrong though at this point, im just saying. all kinds of fishy ideas are thrown around by some germans ive read comment on this, like how its the german character of "order and obedience" that made it possible and that thats a flaw that transcends that one incident and is worthy of consideration

but where or how does your own specific family roots intersect with or relate to the "ethnicity" that they are a part of? of course people are nuts with this shit and take it to ridiculous extremes and talk about ethnicity or race in the most impossibly blanket terms, but at the same time i dont think its entirely without merit, in itself or as food for personal thought. its not without significance. i mean why do those cultures and histories exist as they do? theyre not just totally the product of these incidental macro social or environmental forces, on some level they connect with the peoples that made them. even if they didnt "make" them and they are somewhat irrelevant or non-significant in origin, the same peoples were influenced by them, the same way any peoples were influenced by their surroundings and the course of their development, so, as i suggested, it inevitably feeds back in

now i come upon this recurring thought: do you then identify yourself as just being, you know, "human"? maybe im too stuck in my own paradigm to see that not everyone even has that urge to identify to begin with, and i dont even consciously identify myself with my own background per se, but i do realize that such a strain of thought exists and is pretty powerful. what would you attach yourself to, then, is what im asking? in the back of your mind

yeah but who says its ever rational? theres just these ideas of "blood" and you and some other armenian or german or korean are somehow kin. i know that as much if not more difference exists within races than across them so when it comes to these strong feelings of identification its usually due more to sentimental or irrational impulses than some kind of studied connection. but, even with that knowledge, its difficult to escape the thought: those other people in a way define you. when i trace the course of my subconscious thoughts on this after the fact, i see that my thoughts always work as if im looking for evidence that can help me understand myself. thats what i see going on in my head without any conscious intervention. but, yes, its easy to suppose that without an underlying sense of racism none of this would be so, but i dont think thats necessarily true.


and i agree with the "for fun" aspect of it. italians really provide rich fodder for this


also i really loathe these people that go to all these great lenghts to map their entire family tree and shit. theres something seriously sick about that i think

sleeper 04-07-2006 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeviousJ
Well I got your Yakuza selection right, but the others were kinda variable. I mean you can't always tell anyway, China itself is made up of a collection of different ethnicities from the different tribes who used to control various areas. Someone shoul do a 'which european country are these people from' quiz

someone should do an "irish, scottish, or english?" one. do you think that it would be possible to guess?

DeviousJ 04-07-2006 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleeper
someone should do an "irish, scottish, or english?" one. do you think that it would be possible to guess?

Probably not, but that's what experiments are about!

Injektilo 04-07-2006 04:10 PM

of course it'd be easy. The Irish have red hair, the Scotts wear kilts, and the English have bad teeth and big ears. no problem.

Lie 04-07-2006 10:55 PM

I was actually going to do that but finding pictures that weren't obviously stereotypical was too hard.

sleeper 04-08-2006 12:10 AM

ok. i was initially too lazy but now im really curious to see if deviousj can get them. no cheating you fuckers!

ENGLISH IRISH OR SCOTTISH?

http://www.romeo-juliet.newmail.ru/d...es/lorenzo.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...bert_brown.jpg
http://gfx.filmweb.pl/p/42478/po.39530.jpg

i can vouch for their origins too, its not googles doing this time

sleeper 04-08-2006 12:13 AM

ok and this one is basically impossible, but maybe injektilo can get it. id be impressed

NORWEGIAN, FINNISH, OR SWEDISH?

http://www.musiikkimyynti.fi/kuvat/toikka.jpg
http://www.aftonbladet.se/debatt/021...3151-0_368.jpg
http://www.studenttorget.no/images/medium/866.jpg

Lie 04-08-2006 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleeper
i think with germans its more a matter of genetics that culture (one kind of is the product or influence of the other, though, so im wary to make this type of distinction). i mean they dont have to think of it in those terms ("genetics") but thats the underlying sentiment in any feeling of connection or added responsibility for the holocaust, i think. im not saying its right or wrong though at this point, im just saying. all kinds of fishy ideas are thrown around by some germans ive read comment on this, like how its the german character of "order and obedience" that made it possible and that thats a flaw that transcends that one incident and is worthy of consideration

Well, possibly many Germans do feel suspicious of their own genetics, but I think it's pretty silly to focus on there being an actual genetic “flaw” in Germans that makes them predisposed to the kind of behavior that contributed to the Holocaust. Not even to wonder, but just to focus and internalize. I realize you're just saying this is something people talk about, and I can definitely understand how that would be a particular obsession, but I think it's up to individual people to overcome that sort of pressure and live their lives regardless. I think putting that kind of concern and extra effort into guilt and worry is just the flip side of self-victimization and revenge, and they all lead to the same place.


Quote:

but where or how does your own specific family roots intersect with or relate to the "ethnicity" that they are a part of? of course people are nuts with this shit and take it to ridiculous extremes and talk about ethnicity or race in the most impossibly blanket terms, but at the same time i dont think its entirely without merit, in itself or as food for personal thought. its not without significance. i mean why do those cultures and histories exist as they do? theyre not just totally the product of these incidental macro social or environmental forces, on some level they connect with the peoples that made them. even if they didnt "make" them and they are somewhat irrelevant or non-significant in origin, the same peoples were influenced by them, the same way any peoples were influenced by their surroundings and the course of their development, so, as i suggested, it inevitably feeds back in
I don't know where they intersect, but people are obviously more than culture. It's not just that one family is only a small part of history, it's than people in themselves transcend culture by not fitting into the big picture in an obvious way. Of course looking at things altogether it has to add up somewhere, but looking at history is looking at a summary of events in historical terms, not human ones. So I guess I don't draw an actual line there. I'm interested in historical events because I'm interested in history and humanity, and I'm interested in how people my family reacted to or came out of those events because those things had an indirect effect on me. I have to re-interpret history through the lives of people who have affected me to apply it practically. I don't internalize the stuff directly.


Quote:

now i come upon this recurring thought: do you then identify yourself as just being, you know, "human"? maybe im too stuck in my own paradigm to see that not everyone even has that urge to identify to begin with, and i dont even consciously identify myself with my own background per se, but i do realize that such a strain of thought exists and is pretty powerful. what would you attach yourself to, then, is what im asking? in the back of your mind
That's just it. I think being human and yourself is the most important thing, and I think people lose that very quickly through giving up parts of their identification to other things. I don't think that identifying yourself through politics, marriage, religion, etc., is an inherently bad thing at all. For some people those things are really positive. I just think it's important for a person to make those things work for them instead of vice versa. The minute that the needs of your party, country, family, church, etc., transcend your own needs as a human being, and you are no longer using those things for your own benefit but they are controlling you without question, there is potential for a lot of bad shit to go down. I honestly think that people cannot be truly destructive to the world and people around them without first being self-destructive.

As for what things I personally attach myself to, it's varied my entire life. As precious as it may sound, I identify mostly as a person who is curious and hungry to see the world from as many perspectives as possible and then attempt to preserve and create something from that. In other words, I identify with writers and artists of various kinds I admire, and with people who like to play things in different contexts, or people who have been forced to define their own surroundings, way more than I do with people who share my genetics, culture, political views, “background,” etc. Basically I think people mainly identify with those who are in a similar situation to them, and it just so happens that I wasn't raised to have a particular solidarity with anything simply defined the way a lot of people are, so I end up more identifying with other people who didn't have that either. That might sound pretentious as hell but it's the only way I know how to put it.


Quote:

yeah but who says its ever rational? theres just these ideas of "blood" and you and some other armenian or german or korean are somehow kin. i know that as much if not more difference exists within races than across them so when it comes to these strong feelings of identification its usually due more to sentimental or irrational impulses than some kind of studied connection. but, even with that knowledge, its difficult to escape the thought: those other people in a way define you. when i trace the course of my subconscious thoughts on this after the fact, i see that my thoughts always work as if im looking for evidence that can help me understand myself. thats what i see going on in my head without any conscious intervention. but, yes, its easy to suppose that without an underlying sense of racism none of this would be so, but i dont think thats necessarily true.
Well, yeah, they do define me, but in a way that “green” defines a tree. You can say I'm Korean, and that's true. You can also say I'm Irish, but I'm like less than 10% Irish, so at that point it gets kind of silly, and where do you draw the line? It's like the one-drop rule. It's like e-prime. I don't think people should actually talk like that, saying “a characteristic of that tree is greenness” but at the same time you have to be aware that the only truly closed, balanced statement you can make about yourself is “I am me.” Everything else is open to speculation and its own definition. I'm not just a sum of my parts, I'm more importantly defined by how I react to those parts, and that element of reaction and that kind of ability to self-define is a purely human characteristic which I think too often gets lost among larger causes. What people are actively is much more important than what they are passively, and yet, those passive elements ARE important and significant because they are opportunities for active definition to present themselves, and how you use them is entirely up to you. “Korean” or “from the Midwest” or “female” are sort of launching pads for me rather than pure stationary elements.

Like I sometimes wonder if my being largely Korean and German has anything to do with me being kind of an anxious and obsessive person. And I can say that and make fun of myself and talk about it all while really wondering if it's genetic or something. And I know that I'm genetically prone to cavities but I can either brush and floss and have beautiful teeth or neglect that and end up with a rotting stinking mouth full of puss and blood like the British and eating soft foods, but really it's the end result that matters, so while I may be inclined to obsess, I can obsess over the results rather than the predisposition (WHICH DOESN'T MAKE IT ANY LESS INTERESTING, BUT YOU GET MY POINT, I MEAN THAT IS MY POINT.)


Quote:

and i agree with the "for fun" aspect of it. italians really provide rich fodder for this
HA, I would imagine.

Quote:

also i really loathe these people that go to all these great lenghts to map their entire family tree and shit. theres something seriously sick about that i think
Actually my grandfather (who by the way is a full-blooded German but from a family that has been in the United States since the days the original Protestants set up camp) did that (shortly before he began having symptoms of Alzheimer's, if that says anything). There is in a way something sick about it but I always enjoyed looking at it because it's actually pretty interesting.

So really I think developing an interest or curiosity regarding history and race and culture even to the point of minor obsession and offensiveness to other people (like Julio) can be fine, but it's not okay to internalize it directly or expect other people to do the same. Whew, that was long.

Lie 04-08-2006 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleeper
ok. i was initially too lazy but now im really curious to see if deviousj can get them. no cheating you fuckers!

ENGLISH IRISH OR SCOTTISH?

http://www.romeo-juliet.newmail.ru/d...es/lorenzo.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...bert_brown.jpg
http://gfx.filmweb.pl/p/42478/po.39530.jpg

i can vouch for their origins too, its not googles doing this time

Scottish
Irish
English

Lie 04-08-2006 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleeper
ok and this one is basically impossible, but maybe injektilo can get it. id be impressed

NORWEGIAN, FINNISH, OR SWEDISH?

http://www.musiikkimyynti.fi/kuvat/toikka.jpg
http://www.aftonbladet.se/debatt/021...3151-0_368.jpg
http://www.studenttorget.no/images/medium/866.jpg

Finnish
Swedish
Norwegian

sleeper 04-08-2006 12:21 AM

what the fuck is that post. thats scary big. i dont know what to do

sleeper 04-08-2006 12:22 AM

now i know how i make other people feel all the time

sleeper 04-08-2006 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lie
Finnish
Swedish
Norwegian

youre actually exactly right. its funny because i thought the scandinavia one was impossible and the british isles one was easy, but you got every single one wrong on the latter. weird

sleeper 04-08-2006 12:25 AM

how did you know the scandinavians apart? did you just guess wildly? what were you going on? this intrigues me

Lie 04-08-2006 12:35 AM

I really have no idea, but I just knew right off. I didn't even have to think about it. Do another Scandinavian one and we'll see if I have a special talent.

Lie 04-08-2006 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleeper
what the fuck is that post. thats scary big. i dont know what to do

I summarized it all in the last paragraph but you're not exactly one to talk. EDIT: And I guess you realize that.

PkPhuoko 04-08-2006 12:40 AM

do black people

sleeper 04-08-2006 12:46 AM

ok its going to be girls this time (maybe theyre more difficult, i dont know).

if youre a bergman fan you have an advantage, but thats alright

http://www.goodwin.ee/sajber/screenshots/sajber15.jpg
http://www.bergmanorama.com/gallery/ullmann-1.jpg
http://www.treactors.com/treactors%2...na-Badding.jpg



ill reply to that big one tomorrow probably

sleeper 04-08-2006 12:58 AM

ok one more of the british isles with women

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...e_Baddeley.JPG
http://www.irishfilmfestival.com/Fla...eadshotWEB.jpg
http://www.playbill.com/images/photos/duncan1.gif

kind of contrast unfavourably with the scandinavian ladies am i wrong

Lie 04-08-2006 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleeper
ok its going to be girls this time (maybe theyre more difficult, i dont know).

if youre a bergman fan you have an advantage, but thats alright

http://www.goodwin.ee/sajber/screenshots/sajber15.jpg
http://www.bergmanorama.com/gallery/ullmann-1.jpg
http://www.treactors.com/treactors%2...na-Badding.jpg



ill reply to that big one tomorrow probably

Swedish
Norwegian
Finnish

I may have overthought that one, I'll prepare for the worst.

Lie 04-08-2006 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleeper
ok one more of the british isles with women

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...e_Baddeley.JPG
http://www.irishfilmfestival.com/Fla...eadshotWEB.jpg
http://www.playbill.com/images/photos/duncan1.gif

kind of contrast unfavourably with the scandinavian ladies am i wrong

Well, they're not twelve, if that's what you mean.

English
Irish
Scottish

sleeper 04-08-2006 01:09 AM

what the fuck. this is odd. you got all of the british isles grannies correct, believe it or not

but the pressure was on after your early victory over the scandinavians, and you only pegged the last girl correctly, so just switch the other two. i think shes easy because she looks vaguely russian i think, which finns would be closest to i guess

Lie 04-08-2006 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleeper
what the fuck. this is odd. you got all of the british isles grannies correct, believe it or not

but the pressure was on after your early victory over the scandinavians, and you only pegged the last girl correctly, so just switch the other two. i think shes easy because she looks vaguely russian i think, which finns would be closest to i guess

Agh, I was so close.

sleeper 04-08-2006 01:12 AM

racist

Lie 04-08-2006 01:13 AM

That second girl looked sort of like this girl I went to school with who was from Norway. That's what threw me off.

Lie 04-08-2006 01:18 AM

The question that this whole thing begs is if it's more offensive to imply that a broader group of people all look alike or that when broken down into their ethnicities THOSE people all look alike. Like if you say "all Asians look alike," but you can't tell the difference between Japanese, Korean, and Chinese, doesn't that really just say that they DON'T all look alike since their characteristics are individual enough that they can't be identified by their ethnic groups? Or is it more of an insult if you can tell them apart because so-and-so is OBVIOUSLY Japanese?


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