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So apparently I feel one way about vaccines and the opposite about mental health care. Am I sciencing right? |
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Well it's unvaccinated people that have to do with the outbreaks. No one here gets chicken pox anymore, I saw that change in my lifetime.
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Are your kids being indoctrinated by the Cult of Free Will?
It's time to have the talk. Speak to your kids about determinism today. |
I think that’s true for many communicable diseases, I’m just not sure it’s universally true. I agree with you about chicken pox. My kids caught it when they were 3 and 9 months and my older kid still has a small scar near his nose because of it. It wasn’t on the schedule when we left NZ, and in Australia the first dose was given at 12 months, at that stage. So they were both unvaccinated. If I could do it over, i would have paid out of pocket in NZ to have my older son vaccinated.
But in the case of pertussis in NSW, it appeared to be a vaccine efficacy/longevity issue, because immunity wore off relatively quickly. But anti-vax parents were still abused and blamed even though it wasn’t clear their choices made any difference to the outbreak. It was similar with the newly developed MeNZB (tm) vaccine in New Zealand. I wasn’t sure the vaccine was responsible for reducing incidence of meningococcal B, but I vaccinated anyway. But didn’t find it easy to stomach the insults and abuse that parents faced when they declined it for their kids. Anti-anti-vax sentiment just has a bit of a witch hunt/scapegoat vibe to me. |
I do understand vaccine hesitance with regards to specific new vaccines. But I have no patience for those choosing to refuse highly effective and safe childhood vaccines, and can't tolerate how it's not just about "vaccine hesitance" but becomes a whole conspiracy theory lifestyle, buy my essential oils to cure cancer big pharma lies.
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There are very few people with truly reasonable and legitimate vaccination objections. And I've never met a hardcore vaxxer who didn't know that there are literally some people who cannot safely be vaccinated and respect that.
But if you choose not to vaccinate against the incredible amount of scientific evidence because of personal feelings, that's both illogical and disrespectful to everyone else's choices around you because you are putting them in increased danger. You get vaccines the same reason you shouldn't drive 120 miles an hour on the highway. It's not just for you and your family. Specific cases and nuances exist always, but I don't see any kind of witch-hunt against vaccine hesitancy. If we are identifying cognitive biases, it's much easier to discern the antisocial and narcissistic patterns in antivaxxer thought. |
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Nothing more rage inducing to me than an anti masker, either. There's literally no risk to you, you're just trying to be SpEcIaL and contrary. I'm not a sheep for wanting to prevent the spreading of dangerous diseases
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People who don't understand vaccines are people who don't understand statistics. There's always a Gaussian distribution for outcomes of any individual who received a vaccine. Idiots like to point to outliers and act like that's the rule. It's especially hard to teach large numbers of people how statistically they benefit from doing things. Plus there's the problem where individuals act extremely selfishly - WELL IF EVERYBODY ELSE GETS ONE I DON'T NEED ONE - which is a race to the bottom.
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My own father is so right wing that he hates seat belt laws and says he sees "Hillary Clinton's smug face" every time he buckles up. Uh, yikes.I have never heard of anyone else hating seat belts, but of course they do! :erm::erm:
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DON'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO WITH MY BODY, UNLESS I'M PREGNANT
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Have you seen that viral news clip from the 80s with Californians freaking out about communism because dui and seatbelt laws?
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Ovary explaining how science is useless |
I don't have a thorough knowledge of the science behind the Tacoma Narrows bridge, but I trust that it's sound when I drive my science based car across it.
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It's very possible to be a spiritual or religious person AND accept science as valid. Millions... if not billions of people do so
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There was a measles outbreak in my mother’s home country of Samoa in 2019. The vaccination rate had dropped - vaccine hesitancy was caused by (among other things) two babies dying in 2018 from incorrectly prepared doses of MMR. The vaccination rate (first dose of MMR at 1 year) had been 91% in 2013 and dropped to 31% right before the outbreak. Back in the 1980s my mum vaccinated us but a lot of her Samoan relatives didn’t vaccinate their kids. It’s true they didn’t understand statistics - most of them had never studied it and they were brought to New Zealand for factory jobs that didn’t require them to learn anything academic when they arrived. They had also been the target of political ads scapegoating them for the woes of stagflation in the 1970s, had been subject to dawn raids to locate overstayers, experienced racism in the workplace, in stores, and yes - at the Dr’s office and hospitals etc. I think middle class parents who have had every opportunity to furnish themselves with knowledge and choose to be ignorant are annoying in many respects - not just about vaccination, but also with regards to education policy, ownership of combustion engines and use, single use plastic, fast fashion, food production, etc. But vaccine hesitancy includes a larger group than this privileged group. So if you spray hate generally in that direction you’re also targeting people who haven’t had the same opportunities as you to learn the necessary facts and processes in science and statistics to help you process information about vaccines, and people who haven’t had the same experience as you building trust in Dr.’s offices and healthcare services generally, because they’ve received a different level of service to you, caused by the biases and shortfalls of the professional healthcare workforce. My Dad worked in scientific research institutes most of my childhood so I grew up surrounded by it and was good at it, at school. But I still do not get the emotion that people feel about a lack of education that causes people to make difference decisions to them. My emotional response is sadness and curiosity. But I guess that’s because I most often come across vaccine hesitancy in good people who have been good and kind to me, and who are interested in doing the best thing for their family and community but just have a totally different idea about what that involves |
Duo, MOAO, ilp and rbg are all white or white passing, and have college degrees. And you’re all angry at my brown cousins who experienced racism in classrooms with few brown teachers, so who dropped out early and got jobs in retail and manufacturing to support their parents on similar low incomes. I dunno it just feels a bit like punching down
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Like I get you being angry at people like you (white, College educated) being wilfully dumb about vaccines. I just wish you would specify that rather than doing this blanket hate thing
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He died at 65 from heart and lung failure, after a 50 year 2 pack per day cigarette habit. He called anti cigarette advocates "hippy liars". And when he was in the ICU 2 months after retiring (3 months before he died) he told the doctor he didn't believe his diabetes diagnosis cause "he's been healthy his whole life!" RIP to the greatest generation |
I think they’re partly called the greatest generation because of their work ethic and resilience. One of my grandfathers is still alive and is 105. He caught COVID last year in his rest home, spent only one full day in bed, and described it as “not that bad”
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Meanwhile, I freaked out after being a bit wheezy on the first night and called my doctor saying I had a fever and difficulty breathing and then went on paxlovid just to be safe. I am pretty pathetic in comparison. My generation is maybe the whiniest generation
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Generally though, if you are only referring to a subset of anti-vaxers (and the uneducated manual labourers also exist in large numbers in the U.S., as well as the long term unemployed, etc.) maybe it is better to be clear about that each time you vent
It doesn’t have any effect on me because I’m on an anti-vaxer. But in my experience it would have a negative effect on a non-vaxing parent who was outside of that subset you are angry with, but just heard you making comments generally about people who don’t vax. I’m not trying to shame you. I’m just describing my discomfort with that blanket shaming approach |
I’d have to do research, and should, but I have some hunches about the demographic breakdown of antivaxx ideology
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american boomers couldn't even beat little Vietnam...
FTR I'm paraphrasing my other grandfather |
"goddamn Jane Fonda and lazy hippie kids!!"
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Although in NZ, specific to the Covid-19 vax, it was young Māori who were among biggest groups for vaccine refusal, and younger people generally, and the main theory I’ve heard for that is viral (ironic term) reels on TikTok, which are funnier and slicker than anything a government public health comms team can match, and which spread an anti-vax message more effectively than anything Govt/health agencies could produce to counter it |
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That makes sense about winning the war. A lot of them would have come home to land parcels as a reward for military service, and became farmers, so straight into another life of sacrifice and hard graft My grandfather was too young for WWI and was a conscientious objector in WWII. So he never went to war or claimed any part of it but is still one of the hardest working people I know. Maybe he felt he had something to prove |
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I can be more sympathetic to vaccine hesitancy in the latter group, but I still shouldn't have to accept that as completely okay, even if they are less at "fault." Contagious and harmful diseases are still contagious and harmful. |
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All the indigenous land had been stolen by then. The last time they gave away other peoples' land here (I THINK) was after the Civil War. I found records of one of my ancestors who fought the English in the war of 1812, and he was given 80 acres by the Federal government ... in 1850. Lots of promises to give land to freed slaves.. but that NEVER happened. |
You can accept it as not OK, and you can want your kids to avoid illness, and you can still be empathetic and relate in a non-judgemental way (so, not making assumptions about why their kids are not vaxed, but asking questions and listening) to the group whose choices are different to yours.
I guess actually we agree about that. Maybe we are talking past each other a bit |
Yeah, this style of conversation gets jumbled pretty quickly
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Del. Spread love!
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DEL SPREAD MEASLES!
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