Canadians: What do you feel about a most likely Conservative government?

Thoughts? Insults?
The Liberals are sliding fast, and even a minority government looks unlikely.

If you're voting NDP, Green, or some other party, are you considering changing your vote to keep the Conservatives out?

[christian zombie vampires]

Originally posted by Lizard Queen
Thoughts? Insults?
The Liberals are sliding fast, and even a minority government looks unlikely.

If you're voting NDP, Green, or some other party, are you considering changing your vote to keep the Conservatives out?

no, because the NDP are also higher than they've been in ages (ever?) and 1) my riding's MP kicks ass so i want him to represent me and 2) there'll pretty much be a minority govt, which means most likely another election in a year or two, which i see as a second chance and 3) the liberals and conservatives' advantages and disadvantages seem to balance out w/me. nothing i see the conservatives potentially doing or not doing i see as so offensive they must be stopped at all costs, at least not stuff that the liberals wouldn't do/prevent anyways. in fact i agree with their govt cutbacks and gun registry stance and think they'd be improvements. they don't seem to be about two-tier health care, but rather health care reform, which basically needs to happen. i don't care if pot isn't legalized really, anyone smokes it almost anywhere as it is. and they're not christian nutcases. they're both liars. vote NDP.

[sarasvati]

Originally posted by thrillhouse

vote NDP.

the NDP candidate in my riding is kicking ass as well.

[machinaddict]

I'll be voting Liberal because they are the party that most closely represents my beliefs.
I would prefer the conservatives over the NDP though.

[ProgressChrome]

Originally posted by Lizard Queen

If you're voting NDP, Green, or some other party, are you considering changing your vote to keep the Conservatives out?

no, because that isn't going to change the fact that my local riding is probably going to be liberal again. I would like to voice my opinion through my vote of the NDP and hope that their support in my riding will strengthen over time. if people are just voting liberals locally to keep the conservatives out, you aren't going to be helping parties like the NDP grow.

[ProgressChrome]

I'm scared of a conservative federal government. Just reading their platform makes me really angry. The liberal platform doesn't seem quite as bad, but I know that it's probably lies.
NDP is the party that most accurately represents my philosophies. That reasoning is how I think everyone should vote, instead of disliking one or two stances a party has and ruling them out because of it, which is what my mom seems to often do with the NDP even though her values seem to be slightly to the left.

[jczeroman]

What does "conservative" mean in canadian?

[machinaddict]

Originally posted by jczeroman
What does "conservative" mean in canadian?

it's hard to tell sometimes.

[jczeroman]

Originally posted by machinaddict

it's hard to tell sometimes.

Someone give me some links and I'll decide who i'd vote for.

[ProgressChrome]

Originally posted by jczeroman


Someone give me some links and I'll decide who i'd vote for.

www.ndp.ca

[jczeroman]

Originally posted by ProgressChrome


www.ndp.ca

Definitely not them. The Liberal party doesn't look too bad...

[jczeroman]

Originally posted by jczeroman

The Liberal party doesn't look too bad...

Nevermind, they're dumb too, so are the conservatives. Give me a party that will privatize the healthcare system.

[jczeroman]

here we go. The Libertarian Party of Canada: http://www.libertarian.ca/

Our Principles

1. Each individual has the right to his or her own life, and this right is the source of all other rights.
2. Property rights are essential to the maintenance of those rights.
3. In order that these rights be respected, it is essential that no individual or group initiate the use of force or fraud against any other.
4. In order to bar the use of force or fraud from social relationships and to place the use of retaliatory force under objective control, human society requires an institution charged with the task of protecting individual rights under an objective code of rules. This is the basic task, and the only moral justification for, government.
5. The only proper functions of government, whose powers must be constitutionally limited are:
* settling, according to objective laws, disputes among individuals, where private, voluntary arbitration has failed;
* providing protection from criminals;
* providing protection from foreign invaders.
6. As a consequence of all the above, every individual -- as long as he or she respects the rights of others -- has the right to live as he or she alone sees fit, as a free trader in a free market.

[christian zombie vampires]

Originally posted by jczeroman
here we go. The Libertarian Party of Canada: http://www.libertarian.ca/

that's exactly what i would've given you too.
and these guys, i think they were trying to band together with NDP and the libertarians but that fell through: www.canadianactionparty.ca

[jczeroman]

Originally posted by thrillhouse

www.canadianactionparty.ca

Those guys are pretty contra my beliefs. They're ultra-nationalistic socialists. They remind me of the Nazis (without the genocide and stuff).

[shaniqua]

jczeroman, conservative is basically canadian for republican.

i voted yesterday, and i voted ndp, because their views best represent mine, and i believe in the candidate in my riding (olivia chow, trinity-spadina). if i was living in a riding where there was a chance in hell the conservatives would win, i may be tempted to vote liberal (like i did in 2000, in fear of the canadian alliance), but that ain't happening here, thank god.

ideally, i'd like to live in a canada with an ndp minority government with the bloc in opposition, but that won't happen for awhile.

[jczeroman]

Originally posted by shaunna
jczeroman, conservative is basically canadian for republican.

Ya, that is what it looks like. They look much worse though, like what the US republican party will be in a few years.

[machinaddict]

Originally posted by jczeroman


Ya, that is what it looks like. They look much worse though, like what the US republican party will be in a few years.

They are more center aligned then the republicans.
Conservatives still support public health care and things like that.

[jczeroman]

Originally posted by machinaddict
They are more center aligned then the republicans.
Conservatives still support public health care and things like that.

I think that is where the republicans are going. Because supporting a public healthcare system here is hardly center, but is gradually becoming so.

Originally posted by jczeroman


I think that is where the republicans are going. Because supporting a public healthcare system here is hardly center, but is gradually becoming so.

That's because it is inexcusable how many people are uninsured in this nation of plenty.

[jczeroman]

Originally posted by Mr. Rhinoceros


That's because it is inexcusable how many people are uninsured in this nation of plenty.

As if insurance is the only means to providing health to the most people.

[machinaddict]

I'd just like to note that they did a huge 5 year study over here and determined that if Canada were to switch to a fully privatized health care system, it would cost us 30% more.

Originally posted by jczeroman


As if insurance is the only means to providing health to the most people.

Oh? Is this another thing that the miracles of the unchained private sector can provide for the common man? All unfair sarcasm aside, I would like to know what other options you think we might have.

[jczeroman]

Originally posted by Mr. Rhinoceros


Oh? Is this another thing that the miracles of the unchained private sector can provide for the common man? All unfair sarcasm aside, I would like to know what other options you think we might have.

My fiancee pointed this out to me yesterday as we were discussiong this topic, and I had to agree with her. She said that if we could buy routine and common medical practices out of pocket and then contract with insurance companies as needed the price would go down. Markets would open up that never existed before. Providers woudl be forced to compete for individual consumers bringing things like office visits and teeth-pullign down. People coudl then contract with insurance companies based on need. For example, I could pay for a minimal plan because I'm young and healthy, and my grandmother could get a more encompasing plan. It very theoretical and there are realistic concerns and so I am not going to argue to defend it to virulently.

[jczeroman]

Originally posted by machinaddict
I'd just like to note that they did a huge 5 year study over here and determined that if Canada were to switch to a fully privatized health care system, it would cost us 30% more.

First who is they? -- because if it was done with any government funding or by government officials then they have a big incentive to keep the CHS.

Also, I just looked at some budget figures for Canada and Ontario. Right now the 2004-05 budget spends 2.1 billion dollars on their healthcare. With a total spending initiatives and revenues at 6.5 billion we see that 1/3 of the federal budget goes to healthcare. Each province also charges copays from $25 to $300 a month (see Ontario budget 2004) including the provincial taxes and budget, which for ontario is 2.5 billion out of 3.5 billion. So Canada is spending spending 33% federally and 72% provincially on healthcare. That's a greater percent than America, both states and Federal, spend on education, the miliatary and healthcare combined.

[machinaddict]

Originally posted by jczeroman


First who is they? -- because if it was done with any government funding or by government officials then they have a big incentive to keep the CHS.

Also, I just looked at some budget figures for Canada and Ontario. Right now the 2004-05 budget spends 2.1 billion dollars on their healthcare. With a total spending initiatives and revenues at 6.5 billion we see that 1/3 of the federal budget goes to healthcare. Each province also charges copays from $25 to $300 a month (see Ontario budget 2004) including the provincial taxes and budget, which for ontario is 2.5 billion out of 3.5 billion. So Canada is spending spending 33% federally and 72% provincially on healthcare. That's a greater percent than America, both states and Federal, spend on education, the miliatary and healthcare combined.

I was off a little bit, it's actually 19%. I wouldn't consider this information biased towards public health care.
Here's a link:
http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/200...8/bisb0628.htm

[jczeroman]

Originally posted by machinaddict
I was off a little bit, it's actually 19%. I wouldn't consider this information biased towards public health care.
Here's a link:
http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/200...8/bisb0628.htm

Ok, thanks dude.

Here is the first problem with that study that I see -- it is based on the costs at US hostpitals. First off, our system sucks ass and is the most expensive in the world. The other problem is this -- Americans pay more in general for most things then anywhere else in the world. A poor american could go down to mexico or east Asia and live like a king. Over here they can barely afford to eat out once a month. Of course healthcare is going to be more expensive here then in canada, but it has nothing to do with for-profit or non-profit. It has everything to do with the cost of living. The public transportation system in Mexico charges about $.05 for their fares. Over here you will pay a couple dollars. Does that mean that the US should adopt the same system as mexico? Hell no.

Also, the non-profits here store a lot of their money in accounts that can be easily manipulated by executives and administrators but that are not counted toards their revenue. The local hospital in my town, does this practice. They are technically "not-for-profit," yet they take tons of money that shoudl be going to care, and placing it in accounts before the annual numbers are due.

Like I insinuated in my first post, if taken as a percent of federal and state spending compared to canada, a centralized US system would cost more than the US military, governemnt helathcare and entire education system combined. This is no small number. I'm sure that when indexed to standard of living adjustments, Canadians woudl pay significantly less i ftheir market was freed (as woudl the US).

I am actually suprised that the surveyers did not find numbers in the hundreds of percent, especially when simply doing a cross-over comparison to US for-profits. and non-profits.

[machinaddict]

Originally posted by jczeroman


Ok, thanks dude.

Here is the first problem with that study that I see -- it is based on the costs at US hostpitals.

They did this because if our health care system were to completely privatize, it would more or less resemble the American system. Which is what we are afraid of. Our cultures, economies, etc are the closest to make this comparision.
Who do you think we should have compared ourselves to? Is there even a country with a quality private health care system? (I don't know).

All I know is that this came out about a month ago and made front page everywhere in Canada. I was going to bring it up earlier but I just forgot.

[jczeroman]

Nah, that is a good point. The problem with the American System is the FDA and other goverment reguklations and laws limiting supply and demand to very strict government standards. Our system is of the worst kind -- a mish-mash of government and private forces trying to use healthcare to extract money and gain power.

[machinaddict]

Originally posted by jczeroman
Nah, that is a good point. The problem with the American System is the FDA and other goverment reguklations and laws limiting supply and demand to very strict government standards. Our system is of the worst kind -- a mish-mash of government and private forces trying to use healthcare to extract money and gain power.

Exactly. We look to the states and we don't want that to happen here. But that is almost exactly what would happen if we were to privatize.