Racism & Prejudice

[pink_ribbon_scars]

I think it would be really interesting to have an open, honest discussion with you guys about racism and prejudice. This is, or course, somewhat inspired by coffee spoons, and this thread will most likely be a thread that he/she will try to fuck with, so unless you want to ruin the whole thread then you should try not to bicker with him/her unless it is really called for.

I'm interested in a few different aspects of racism, prejudice and stereotypes, and first I'm going to define them using dictionary.com so we're all talking about roughly the same thing.

rac·ism
n.
1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

prej·u·dice
n.
1. A. An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts.
B. A preconceived preference or idea.
2. The act or state of holding unreasonable preconceived judgments or convictions. See Synonyms at predilection.
3. Irrational suspicion or hatred of a particular group, race, or religion.
4. Detriment or injury caused to a person by the preconceived, unfavorable conviction of another or others.

ster·e·o·type
n.
1. A conventional, formulaic, and oversimplified conception, opinion, or image.
2. One that is regarded as embodying or conforming to a set image or type.

I'm specifically interested in the questions I've posed below. If you're interested in participating, you can answer only one of them or as many as you'd like, and feel free to pose more. This isn't a survey, I intend for it to be an intelligent discussion. We'll see if that can happen here.

a) Do you think you hold racist or prejudiced beliefs? Why or why not?
b) Do you feel that it is possible for you to stop holding racist or prejudiced beliefs if you do hold them now? Do you want to be less racist or prejudiced than you are now?
c) To what degree should we be "color blind"? How does one acknowledge differences between races and customs without creating divisions? Alternately, how does one ascertain whether commonly held ideas about a specific race or racially segregated neighborhood are stereotypes that should be rejected, or when they are actual trends or traits for that race or neighborhood?

[severin]

i think everyone has prejudices, and everyone applies certain stereotypes on other people. but i think racism is something not everyone has.

one can only try and work around oneselfs prejudices

[Axis of Action]

Originally posted by severin
i think everyone has prejudices, and everyone applies certain stereotypes on other people. but i think racism is something not everyone has.

one can only try and work around oneselfs prejudices

I'd agree. I think U.S. society as a whole is prejudiced towards Middle-Easterners - that much is obvious. I feel indifferent to them, like I do everyone else, I treat them with just as much respect as I do a black or white person, but I think our society treats them worse, especially with the color-coding on planes, etc. They do it for the reasons that the Middle-East is where our current threat is, but it is turning into a stigma.

[distance]

Originally posted by Sehki


I'd agree. I think U.S. society as a whole is prejudiced towards Middle-Easterners - that much is obvious. I feel indifferent to them, like I do everyone else, I treat them with just as much respect as I do a black or white person, but I think our society treats them worse, especially with the color-coding on planes, etc. They do it for the reasons that the Middle-East is where our current threat is, but it is turning into a stigma.

i don't trust old, rich, white men.

[Axis of Action]

Originally posted by distance


i don't trust old, rich, white men.

you racist

[Mayfuck]

a) Do you think you hold racist or prejudiced beliefs? Why or why not?
b) Do you feel that it is possible for you to stop holding racist or prejudiced beliefs if you do hold them now? Do you want to be less racist or prejudiced than you are now?
c) To what degree should we be "color blind"? How does one acknowledge differences between races and customs without creating divisions? Alternately, how does one ascertain whether commonly held ideas about a specific race or racially segregated neighborhood are stereotypes that should be rejected, or when they are actual trends or traits for that race or neighborhood?

a) Absolutely not. Before I started paying attention to politics and before I started noticing differences between where I grew up in CA and other places, I have never ever considered race or even noticed race. I mean, not literally, it's not like I didn't notice some people were Asian, it's just I didn't even think or care about it. A lot of that has to do with growing up in diverse neighborhoods, attending diverse classrooms, so differences are just normalcy to me. It has made it so that personally, whenever makes a slur not only against my own race, but other races and creeds and personally get upset and offended because I grew up with good friends who are "different."

b) Nah. I wish everyone were as tolerant as me though _

c) This is a silly question. To what degree should we be color blind? To the greatest degree of course. Why would we want divisions? What people need to realize is that certain trends and traits for a neighborhood are not racial, so they could put the stereotypes away. It has not been racial since the days of MLK and civil rights. These days, and I'm talking about America in general, any differences between groups are due to socioeconomics much more than race. We have major divisions between the different classes, not races. Poor blacks, poor whites and poor hispanics pretty much live the same. An upper class white person is much more likely to get along with an upper class black person than a poor white person. That's not say racism doesn't exist anymore. A lot of racism today is directed toward blacks, latino and middle-easterners, as well as the presence of anti-semitism.

[pink_ribbon_scars]

My job has let me travel into in the Hispanic and African American neighborhoods of Chicago quite a bit lately and it's made me start asking myself a lot of these questions. I'm not going to cover my ass, so if I sound like an awful racist then I'm sorry.

It is my honest opinion that I hold no (or none that I know of) racist, prejudiced or stereotypical beliefs about hispanics. I think it's probably because I don't know a lot of hispanic people, and I know little or nothing about hispanic culture and neighborhoods. I've been impressed by almost every hispanic hat I have encountered -- way more than the whites I've encountered. I should be more color blind here, I realize.

I do however, have some negative thoughts about certain types of African American people. Specifically a very definined subsection of AA society: the young to middle-aged male who hangs out on the street, rides public transportation and talks a lot or sells stuff on the bus, generally looks rather unclean and often curses a lot very loud and says a lot of dumb shit that they don't mind if everyone hears. These people don't make me hate black people in general, or anything even close to that. They just make me suspicious of many unclean looking black males between the ages of 18-50, specifically ones who try to start conversations with me. I shouldn't criminalize anyone for being unclean or for using "offensive language," saying stupid shit or smelling a little like weed or alcohol, because I've been guilty of all those things way more than once. It is obviously an issue of race and class, and it bothers the hell out of me that I feel this way. But then I think about the fact that whether it's their fault of not, crime rates are astronomical in the black neighborhoods surrounding my white neighborhoods. I work a lot with maps and sociological data, and I know that almost all of the felons returning home return to one of the neighborhoods that surround the neighborhood where I work and travel daily. I know that there are a lot of these felons returning, amd most of these felons are black males in my suspect age range. It's very complicated and I don't know what to make of it. I'm tired of writing but I could say a lot more.

On another note, I do feel very bad living in a white affluent neighborhood. In the future I'm going to shoot for a more mixed neighborhood because I think that I have to make a personal effort to combat the intense segregation in cities such as Chicago. But hey, look where I've lived for the past 6 years.

[Glare Seethe]

Well, this isn't 100% related to the questions asked in the first post, but since no one has replied to this in a while...

A couple of months ago, I had to read an article about racism and slavery for my USA history class. It was an article by Barbara Fields, I think, if anyone else has read it. Essentially, the article practically negates the whole notion of "race". I don't remember the particulars of it, though, but I thought I'd throw it out here because it spawned a heated debate in class about the topic, and maybe someone else who's read the article can comment.

The whole thing made me realize, though, how entirely ridiculous the notion of racism is. Yes, I know I'm stating the obvious, and it's not like I believed differently before, but this time it was much clearer, much simpler. The fact that it was merely historical and geographical circumstances that determined the difference between races makes it so unbelievably retarded to believe we are inherently different than one another. Kind of a stupid example, maybe, but since it's merely physiological differences, if the circumstances were different perhaps tall people would be racist towards short people now. And when you consider how silly that sounds, you realize how silly racism based on skin color (or other physiological differences) is too.

Like I said, I realize I'm stating the obvious, but it was just something I understood very clearly after two weeks of debate in class, and it's my most recent musings on the topic, so...

That said, I never grew up around other races, really. Here in Israel there aren't many black people, Hispanics or any other races. So when I do see one I can't escape noticing the difference, and more importantly, thinking about it. I don't think there's any racism in it (unless you define racism to ******* even the acknowledgement of differences, which I think is what Fields was arguing for in her article), it's just the knowledge of history and how prominent racism still is in society these days that immediately makes me think of it, probably cause it's mostly foreign to me...

[mirrar]

in my program we're forced to tear apart all of our beliefs constantly from an "anti-oppressive framework", so i've had to do far too much thinking about my personal beliefs on this issue.. we're constantly told that everyone has racist and predjudiced beliefs, and i think that i'm not actually racist, but i do have some predjudices about certain groups of people, and unfortantely since i don't know enough subgroups of people from different countries i tend to project them onto whole ethnic groups, mostly with their religions and their treatment of women and stuff like that.. however i also have negative beliefs about different subcultures of white people that have nothing to do with race that i see as the same thing, but as my anti-oppressive teacher constantly throws at us is we have to consider the "political and historical implications about making a judgement of someone of a marginalized ethnic group" oh jesus i go to this place to get away from school, not to elaborate on it! haha.

[sleeper]

1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.

what is wrong with this exactly? the fact of the matter is, we are different. the only issue is the discrimination factor, or worse, acting upon it. the differences are so significant and obvious, i find it hard to believe that people still follow this disney line of "we are all equal". we are not all equal. the differences extend far beyond simple race or skin colour. we are different. that therefor suggests the idea of supremacy - if were not equal then we have a rank or order, which im not even discounting. in the animal world the idea of difference and race is seen much less hysterically, and in my opinion, more accurately. there are dogs. blood hounds have good noses. greyhounds are fast. german shepards are friendly. bulldogs are fierce. whatever. differences exist. humans we are no different. asians have very logical minds, and can handle mathematics. japanese are creative and passionate. the french and the italians have art in them, and spanish people have rhythm. negroes are very atheletic. these are all stereotypes, but there is a verifiable common truth being expressed - we are different. it would be lovely if we were equal, it would, but the truth is always ugly. again, the issue really is in the actual prejudice part of this. if black people are generally weaker in the arts and sciences, are all black people? no, thats ignorant to say. but ignoring the facts and adopting blanket a standard of equality for all human kind is just another form of ignorance.

for fun ill make a general top five list of my favourite breeds of humans. its kinda a joke so relax

1. japanese
2. scandinavian
3. german
4. english
5. north american

[Mayfuck]

Originally posted by sleeper
1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.

what is wrong with this exactly? the fact of the matter is, we are different. the only issue is the discrimination factor, or worse, acting upon it. the differences are so significant and obvious, i find it hard to believe that people still follow this disney line of "we are all equal". we are not all equal. the differences extend far beyond simple race or skin colour. we are different. that therefor suggests the idea of supremacy - if were not equal then we have a rank or order, which im not even discounting. in the animal world the idea of difference and race is seen much less hysterically, and in my opinion, more accurately. there are dogs. blood hounds have good noses. greyhounds are fast. german shepards are friendly. bulldogs are fierce. whatever. differences exist. humans we are no different. asians have very logical minds, and can handle mathematics. japanese are creative and passionate. the french and the italians have art in them, and spanish people have rhythm. negroes are very atheletic. these are all stereotypes, but there is a verifiable common truth being expressed - we are different. it would be lovely if we were equal, it would, but the truth is always ugly. again, the issue really is in the actual prejudice part of this. if black people are generally weaker in the arts and sciences, are all black people? no, thats ignorant to say. but ignoring the facts and adopting blanket a standard of equality for all human kind is just another form of ignorance.

for fun ill make a general top five list of my favourite breeds of humans. its kinda a joke so relax

1. japanese
2. scandinavian
3. german
4. english
5. north american

Uh, wow. :erm

You should have just stopped at "what is wrong with this exactly? "

[Mayfuck]

Originally posted by Mirror_Untrue
i don't know enough subgroups of people from different countries

Then you should probably stop making judgments about them.

[Mayfuck]

Originally posted by pink_ribbon_scars

It's reassuring to know that if I were a black male there's a less chance that you would want to be my friend.

[TheHeadOnTheDoor]

the fist job i ever had was at a mcdonalds. my sister was (and still is) the manager. when i filled out the application, i checked "white".
a spanish guy named paul was putting me in the computer. he knew my sister well enough to know that we're half italian. when he got to the race part, he said to me "aren't you proud of your latino side? you're not white"
i was unaware at the time, that italians are often not consitered white. i was put in the computer at work as being "latin" and that was the end of that.
later that week, i was sitting in class, and a black kid behind me said "are you puerto rican?" and i said "no, i'm italian" and he said "oh, shut up. you're white. i hate it when white kids try to pretend they're not white by saying they're italian"

that sort of set how i feel about the whole racism issue.

[Mayfuck]

lol


Awesome.

[pink_ribbon_scars]

I want to apologize for not keeping the discussion going, I'm feeling bad and my brain isn't cranking it out like it should. I also want to follow up on my post about black guys, because I think I gave the wrong impression by not delving in deeper and explaining more. Plus I'd like to talk about that article you brought up...when I feel better.

[mpp]

I like all people; I just like some people more than other solely based on their "race." Just kidding.


Race is a dumb concept. It's not real, and that's why books and ideas like "The Bell Curve" are illogical. You can't say that "orientals" are smarter than "whites" who are smarter than "blacks" because there are no such thing as the above categories...they're just figments of society's imagination.

The only reason African-Americans have less melanin in their skin than Africans is that white slaveowners raped slaves. That's it. End of story. That means black people are not solely black. They're white, too.

The fact that someone should discriminate solely based on such an ambiguous concept is an astounding example of how backward of a culture we live in.

[Nimrod]

Originally posted by mpp
Race is a dumb concept. It's not real

Actually it is very real. There are differences in physiology that and indisputable. Blacks tend to have more fast twitch muscle fiber in their legs, for instance, and are prone to sickle cell anemia.

To say that there are "no differences" is to be ignorant. Hell, look at the NBA. The racial percentages there aren't coincidence.

[machinaddict]

Originally posted by Nimrod
Actually it is very real. There are differences in physiology that and indisputable. Blacks tend to have more fast twitch muscle fiber in their legs, for instance, and are prone to sickle cell anemia.

To say that there are "no differences" is to be ignorant. Hell, look at the NBA. The racial percentages there aren't coincidence.

same with track and field. When's the last time there was anyone light skinned in the 100 metre?

[mpp]

Originally posted by Nimrod
Actually it is very real. There are differences in physiology that and indisputable. Blacks tend to have more fast twitch muscle fiber in their legs, for instance, and are prone to sickle cell anemia.

To say that there are "no differences" is to be ignorant. Hell, look at the NBA. The racial percentages there aren't coincidence.

race is not real. ethnicity is.

[Nimrod]

Originally posted by mpp


race is not real. ethnicity is.

Please explain how you quantify the difference... would ethnicity would be something like "of Zimbabwean decent" and race be "black" while "Swedish" is ethnicity and "white" is race?

If so, those people from Zaire sure are a lot like those from Kenya!

[killed radio star]

"blacks" and "whites" are not genotypically identical, but it depends on the definition of black. some aboriginal tribes have physical (read: facial) features that associate them with "blacks," yet their genotypical association is that of white people. so pigmentation doesn't quite cut it.

now if we said something like, those related to indigenous tribes of africa have gene characteristics suited for basketball, track, etc, then yeah, that is pretty hard to deny.

[In-Valid]

Originally posted by pink_ribbon_scars
I think it would be really interesting to have an open, honest discussion with you guys about racism and prejudice.

never try to sell roses in a fish market !
This first thing that shocked me about this forum lo' those many years ago was how homophobic & racist it seemed. Now I brush it off as sophmoric humour but there are people who hide behind 'humour' & 'politics' to spout their shite. I'm actually surprised Hyperbole made a stink about the sig.
a) Do you think you hold racist or prejudiced beliefs? Why or why not?

based on the defintion by dictionary.com above I'd have to relunctantly say yes. Specifically,
"rac·ism
1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others"

but let me qualify this by stating I don't believe it's specifically a race issue but an issue of Geography & Evolution. I don't want to get too involved in the explanation (I know too late) but I don't think it's 'radical' thinking that due to geography humans & many other species would over (a long period of) time develop certain physical characteristics that would allow them to survive/thrive in their climate (and to make it more complicated factor in 'diets' that people were restricted to also due to their geography which IMO also affects evolution of 'character/ability' over time). Just look at how North American society lives & eats today & we can slowly see PHYSICAL changes (mostly increase in general mass from birth till death)..this is evolution (or some may argue de-evolution). Of course in modern society travel over the globe is no longer a major issue (resulting in more multicultural societies) & therefore evolution will be less & less tied to specific races.

and this defintion of Prejudice (which is not specifically race related)
1. An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts.

I'll admit to unconciously (sp?) forming an opinion (first impression) on someone based on how they dress (hip hop head, indienerd, uptight, perv, slut, goth, jock, etc.). I try not to, but at the same time people where certain clothes to define themselves and they too can fall into (conciously or not) fitting into the stereotype because they WANT people to percieve them a certain way.


Do you feel that it is possible for you to stop holding racist or prejudiced beliefs if you do hold them now? Do you want to be less racist or prejudiced than you are now?

Yes.
Yes.
IMO racism will ALWAYS be an issue because humans seem to need to be with 'their own'. I live in one of the most multicultural countries (and specifically) cities in the world and it's wonderful and beautiful but I still see many people who don't want 'immigrants' moving into their neighbourhood and I see immigrants who have no interest in being part of the 'bigger culture' and will move into neighbourhoods that are predominately of their ethnicity & have their life revolve around this small little world. I've been at the other end of racist remarks & have made my own tasteless jokes to friends (ok this last sentence is neither here nor there i guess)



c) To what degree should we be "color blind"? How does one acknowledge differences between races and customs without creating divisions? Alternately, how does one ascertain whether commonly held ideas about a specific race or racially segregated neighborhood are stereotypes that should be rejected, or when they are actual trends or traits for that race or neighborhood?

I don't think we should be color blind. We should acknowledge / accept differences in race & customs but people of all ethncities have to make an effort to want to know about others. The best way to do this is to 'join the party'. I know too many people who grew up with only white friends or korean friends, etc and in their's 20's still hang out with only these people (same can be said about people in their 40's who I know who seem to only know other ethnicities thru casual work acquaintances).

bah, I hate typing all this. Now I know why I stopped trying to join in on these discussion LOL. At least PRS made me realize i'm a damn racist/prejudice sonofabitch !

*goes to chinese restaurant & when ordering fork for myself, waits to see waiter place it on my trini friends plate*

edit: bold tags *blush*

[mpp]

Originally posted by killed radio star


now if we said something like, those related to indigenous tribes of africa have gene characteristics suited for basketball, track, etc, then yeah, that is pretty hard to deny.

of course

some people live near the equator so they need long limbs, long bodies and more surface area

some people don't so they don't need it



what i'm saying is "black" is not a real thing and neither is "white"...it's a false dichotomy imposed on us by society to help us fit things into nice little categories that are easy for people to understnad

[I_was_aborted]

Originally posted by mpp





what i'm saying is "black" is not a real thing and neither is "white"...it's a false dichotomy imposed on us by society to help us fit things into nice little categories that are easy for people to understnad

Of course this is your opinion .

[killed radio star]

Originally posted by mpp
what i'm saying is "black" is not a real thing and neither is "white"...it's a false dichotomy imposed on us by society to help us fit things into nice little categories that are easy for people to understnad

agreed - my opinion is made clear by virtue of the example i posted. pigmentation, facial features, etc. do not qualify a proper definition for "black" and "white." it's a nice little model and all, but by no means is it entirely correct.

[silent1]

i like pizza

[killed radio star]

Originally posted by silent1
i like pizza

racist

[I_was_aborted]

Originally posted by killed radio star


agreed - my opinion is made clear by virtue of the example i posted. pigmentation, facial features, etc. do not qualify a proper definition for "black" and "white." it's a nice little model and all, but by no means is it entirely correct.

Nothing will be entirely correct. When dealing with people you always have exceptions to the rule....but in general there seems to be a basis for a lot of stereotypes. I think black and white are generic terms used to identify peoples heritage. Sure....some black people in America have white genes in them as well...and vice versa....but the most obvious traits still apply to a certain race. To not recognize that people of different races have other different qualities is to ignore a fact of life. I think the problem with racism is that it is often negative. There are also positive things about each race that sets it apart from the others. Japanese people have developed a very different writing style than Mexican people. Chinese opera sounds a lot different than Italian opera. I think the main problem in recognizing the differences between each races comes when people only tend to recognize the negatives(or what they perceive as negative) and noone focuses on the more positive and interesting aspects of race. Its kinda like the news......50 minutes on murders, war and havoc, 10 minutes on the rest of the good things that have happened.

[mpp]

Originally posted by I_was_aborted



Japanese people have developed a very different writing style than Mexican people. Chinese opera sounds a lot different than Italian opera. .

these are all differences in nationalities and geography, not in race