Well at least the leader of the band this board is based on agrees with me.

[Marlon Brando]

Billy said last year in a magazine at the time when the greatiest hits CD came out how he respects the older pumpkins albums like Siamese Dream but that ultimatley they are immature. He says musicaly and lyricaly Machina is their best album. He said every album improved on the last one because if it didn't there would be no point in making it cuz that was the pumpkins attitude. I've said that all along.. that I enjoy their older albums but that Machina is the most interesting and most important. Oh well, even if you people think im stupid, at least the lead singer of the band this board is based on agrees with me.. but I guesse to you people that wouldn't mean anything.

[Marlon Brando]

I mean ignore the fact that the identity of all the characters including june is finnally revealed... forget the fact that our questions regarding zero's emptiness and destruction were finnally answered and along with it our fate and future seen. forget the fact that we were part of the album and created the story while the final tour was happening... billy's feelings from us feeding into the performances and then into the final stories. I guesse none of that means anything to anyone but me and the lead singer of the band you claim to love. oh well.

[MisterLove]

*puts in Machina* *hits play* *track one starts* Shit there goes that argument.

[Netphorian Gadabout]

Ignore the fact that it caused kids to triangulate the location of the final shows and sit around guessing website passwords all day. Forget the fact that it was egotistical tripe, and Billy is wrong. Forget all concepts of capitalization and punctuation. I guess none of that means anything to you. Oh well.

[Marlon Brando]

I think you should stick to reading the back of cereal boxes and watching teletubies... I think you would get more out of that then the pumpkins.

[Marlon Brando]

egotistical? wrong? so billys songs about how he loves us and needs us and we are a part of each other is egotistical? ok

[Ugly]

Originally posted by Marlon Brando
at least the lead singer of the band this board is based on agrees with me.

That's just awkward, awkward sentence structure my friend. Why didn’t you just say “Billy Corgan agrees with me.” Also you’re implying you have intimate knowledge of what Billy said and thinks but in reality you just read an article.

MACHINA isn’t the piece of crap that its made out to be on this boards at times. Far from it, sometimes it fucking sings beautifully (I of the Morning & Stand Inside Your love are good examples). But frankly, it doesn’t nearly rock as hard as SD does. Lyrically come close to being as truthful as SD or MCIS stuff is. A concept album by a 90s rock band is a ballsy thing to do, the problem was it was done in such a half-assed way that it just distances you from the concept and then you throw your hands up in frustration and say “well, this sucks ass.”

[Marlon Brando]

the song untitled says.. 'let me be what i need...your enough for me'. that egotistical? ok

[Marlon Brando]

done if a half assed way??? as opposed to who?? billy wore costumes every night... he put out stories as the character, he put out messages as the character... the performances reflected the tone of the time and teh story even on the old songs they drew upon.. they put on one long cd and another double album.. they did a final world tour where they went everywhere that had FULL on production.. THAT was half assed?

[Marlon Brando]

then you complain that machina doesnt rock as hard.. refer to my FIRST message about it being a more mature record.

[Netphorian Gadabout]

Originally posted by Marlon Brando
so billys songs about how he loves us and needs us and we are a part of each other is egotistical? ok

When he expresses that as "send your bored/your restless/the feedback-scarred/devotionless /you're all a part of me now /and if i fall / you're all a part of me now /in the sun" then yes, it's egotistical as hell.

[Netphorian Gadabout]

Originally posted by Marlon Brando
billy wore costumes every night...

Sort of ruins your "more mature" claim right there. Unless crossdressing is now the mature thing to do.

[Marlon Brando]

if you had a CLUE about the story.. thats why he goes crazy at the end.. he becomes too self rightous and alienates his followers and then is left alone.. thats one of the major themes of the story. yes i agree that was egotistical but thats the point.. that not him.. that glass in the story singing those words.

[cap'n jazz]

holy shit my voice just imploded

[Marlon Brando]

yeah i guesse all fashion is immature or all costume,, i guesse you dont like theatre or movies at all then cuz tis too immature cuz people have to dress up.. and he was dressed more like a catholic preacher then a girl.. he described it as cosmic preacher

[Marlon Brando]

if you had a CLUE about the story.. thats why he goes crazy at the end.. he becomes too self rightous and alienates his followers and then is left alone.. thats one of the major themes of the story. yes i agree that was egotistical but thats the point.. that not him.. that glass in the story singing those words.

[Netphorian Gadabout]

Originally posted by Marlon Brando
if you had a CLUE about the story.. thats why he goes crazy at the end.. he becomes too self rightous and alienates his followers and then is left alone.. thats one of the major themes of the story. yes i agree that was egotistical but thats the point.. that not him.. that glass in the story singing those words.

Oh, he wasn't egotistical, his alterego was! It all makes sense now! To the Z-Board!!!

[Marlon Brando]

Pumpkins fans have again proven their intelligence. Thank you!

[Cassius]

Are you forgetting the involvement of the listener in the music? Identifying with the music is extremely important, for me at least.

[Marlon Brando]

well i identified with all the previous records.. and thats WHY I identified with machina..cuz teh feelings and questions of all the other albums were addressed in Machina. thats why i liked it so much cuz i felt it a lot, its very personal for pumpkins fans

[Dead]

Someone should re-write the story of Glass and all that stuff using normal language so that we could actually read and understand it. I kind of like some of the ideas but it was done in such a wacky and pieced together way that its hard to take it all in. The final revealing story thing made more sense but still...

I nominate Marlon Brando, he seems to know what its all aboot.

[Marlon Brando]

maybe im more mature then you people.. i mean i am 21 so.. who knows.

[Marlon Brando]

you didnt understand it cuz it was done a 'wacky' way? but yet you understand all the other pumpkin lyrics adn albums? that makes machina different... nothing to me... i really dont get you

[Reyngel]

Billy agrees with you? Uh, shut the fuck up. You mean you agree with Billy. In which case, who gives a shit? Damn man, I guess Billy will be knocking on your door any day now to personally let you know that you are his greatest fan. Congratulations.

While I think it is true that:

Gish < Siamese Dream < Mellon Collie < Adore,

I think it is also true that:

Gish < Machina < Siamese Dream < Mellon Collie < Adore

Billy's entire Pumpkins career was BASED ON directly relating to listeners, and vice-versa. ESPECIALLY Siamese Dream, Mellon Collie and Adore. Most fans enjoyed the music because they could relate to many of the lyrics. But with Machina, how the fuck was anyone supposed to relate to lyrics about a worldwide rock and roll superstar? Basically, the only songs on Machina that someone could try to assume a relation with are Stand Inside Your Love, Try Try Try, Wound, and maybe With Every Light. All the rest of them are about specifically BILLY'S life as a rockstar, and the perils and stuggles of specific rock and roll issues. Unless you're the frontman of a multi-million dollar group, then Machina is just some revelation that Billy decided to end his career with, and nothing more. It's not timeless like the other albums, and thus, it was mildly successful when it first came out, and then TOTALLY BOMBED.

[Netphorian Gadabout]

Originally posted by Marlon Brando
i mean i am 21 so.. who knows.

Someone archive this.

[Marlon Brando]

so because it was a story about something you arnt, a rock star, you cant relate to it? so i guesse you didnt like the godfather cuz your not italian or you didnt like clockwork orange cuz your not a violent scottish teenager or cant like pumpkins unless your family hurt you and you are emotionally scarred. ok i understand. so i guesse the issues in machina about obscured reflections of yourself in your partner or our relationship with god or not becoming too self rightious and not relying on other people to make you happy cuz you will end up betrayed in the end.. i guesse i cant understand that cuz i dont play guitar and im not famous. and i guesse cuz i havnt grown up with the billy character me not being a pumpkins fan, i really would have no interest in knowing how the story ends. ok your right

[MisterLove]

Originally posted by Reyngel
It's not timeless like the other albums, and thus, it was mildly successful when it first came out, and then TOTALLY BOMBED.

and the only reason it was "mildly sucessful" when it first came out was because of all the pre-orders from loyal fans. I seriously doubt too many people ran out and bought it after hearing TEG or Try on the radio.

[Marlon Brando]

creed, britney spears, 50-cent.... *yawn* your right, it's better to judge machina on album sales.. thats how we know it was artisticaly succesful

[Cassius]

Id guess the other albums dealt with relatively universal feelings and issues. Just like the famous works of cinema you mentioned. Whereas machina was centered on billy...

Ill shut up now....

[Marlon Brando]

thtas funny.. cuz i hear the fans, june, the rest of the machines, god mentioned just as much as billy... he uses words like 'we' and 'you' and 'everyone' far more on machina as opposed to 'I' or 'me' like on gish or saimese dream or mellon collie