OMG OMG Affirmative action still constitutional

[DeviousJ]

Originally posted by pastor
I actually agree with the people who disagreed with my original statement. Economic status is and should be a more important factor than race when it comes to college admissions. With money, it is easier to quantify the inequalities between people and to illustrate its impact on the quality of pre-college education. When it comes to sociocultural trends -- to the inner workings of the individual's mind and his perceptions of race as shaped by society -- it is not so easy to concretize inequalities that may exist. Those on the benefitting side of such trends can easily choose to ignore them, can smugly leave it to the "Theorists of Institutional Racism" (aka the white guilt-afflicted liberals, the opportunistic minorities, etc.) to prove, knowing full well that all the evidence lies within their well-guarded minds. Meanwhile, those on the unbenefitting side of white privilege can shut the fuck up because they have no recourse to prove their claims. Their only proof that whites don't want to share the sandbox (and don't want to admit that they don't want to share the sandbox) are the overwhelming statistics correlating race and poverty -- which, in a rational world, would be sufficient, but doesn't really cut it in ours. That correlation is because blacks and latinos are lazy, y'know.

I agree that affirmative action isn't the best way to address the problem (and yes, it is a problem) of institutional racism. An injustice cannot correct past injustices. But it is A way, and abolishing it wholly leaves no remaining remedy for the problem. An upshot of shifting affirmative action to a greater economic focus is that it will invariably help minorities. Draw yourself a Ven diagram with three circles: "Poor," "African-American," and "Hispanic." You'll find that a large part of the latter two circles lie within the first. And it ain't because brown people are lazy and unwilling to learn.

Those opposed to affirmative action are right to oppose it, because it's unjust and it's a ham-fisted attempt to correct a social problem whose solution can only be found in a profound change in the way people think. And if India's anti-caste laws tell us anything, it's that legislation cannot change people's hearts. *cue crying Indian and downtrodden Earth Mother from Captain Planet*

And while I agree in principle with those who oppose AA, I fear that their reasons are different than mine. I fear that many white people oppose it because of their underlying assumption that educational (and thus economic) advancements for minorities means a step back for them. "More for 'Them' means less for 'Us.'" They appeal to a high-minded principle of equality -- which is perfectly legitimate -- when really, underneath and beneath it all, they don't like AA because it doesn't benefit them. This doesn't apply to everyone opposed to AA, but I see it often.

My biggest problem with it is that it doesn't actually *fix* anything. If you took AA away now, everything would fall back to the way it was - and there's no sign that anything fundamental is being changed. More minorities get into higher-paying jobs, and then possibly start a family in an area where their children will have a better future, but what about those who don't benefit? Poor families stay poor, poor children end up lacking a decent education (because actually fixing the root problem takes much more effort than ordering organizations to 'up their minority percentages'), and therefore rely on affirmative action to pull them out of the mire. It *is* an unfair solution, on a personal if not demographic level, but if it actually offered a solution then it might be worth it. As it stands, it seems that the only way AA will have any long-term benefits is if these newly successful people somehow return to the community they grew up in and 'give back', or something. And that's not their responsibility, it's the government's

[bonsor]

Originally posted by pastor
There's a tinge (read: tsunami)

[Eulogy]

Originally posted by Nimrod's Son
He's not even close to applying for college or paying his own way in life. Please forvive him, Ace!

Man, it never gets old!!

Originally posted by Eulogy


Shut the fuck up.

Give me a call when you get your driver's license or hit puberty - whichever happens first you pretentious, spoiled, stereotypically white subarbanite twerp.

[mpp]

had to bring this back to page one b/c i haven't posted for several days and this thread was funny


the funny thing is that everyone is against affirmative action on netphoria but the only five people whose opinion really matter on this topic have already spoken and they disagree!!! hahahaha


essentially, this is why i have benefited from affirmative action: i grew up in a town of 5,000 in rural kentucky where the high school (only one in the county) was 95% white and the black people were really stupid (aka, didn't apply themselves b/c the black community and white establishment directed them not to apply themselves so they could be regular ol nigs); when i went to college i was immediately surrounded by a whole slew of minorities: indian, asian, "nigras," "kikes," montes, etc

and i was so excited that the first girl i asked out (and dated for several months) was this hot ass muslim pakistani bitch, F.O.B. - other than enjoying ethnic puss, the benefits of having minorities in my classes at college were many; i was able to get a lot of different viewpoints, etc and i learned a lot

oh and crescentfresh, not everyone is for diversity; maybe you were just being sarcastic but i'd say a majority of the people in the united states don't like people of other races and certainly do not want to work, play, or be educated with those people

the point system at U of M was bogus
the system the law school employs is fantastic and it should be how each school in the country is run - gpa, test scores, geography, race, socioeconomic status, family **********, legacy, writing ability, interview and many, many other things should be considered when allowing someone to come to your school and study

a diverse student body is about a lot more than just race and if it's not then that's unconstitutional (just like the Court said) and unfair

[Lie]

Julio, I like you and all, but I think you're full of shit. Any free-thinking individual, including a white person, should tackle issues objectively based on what they really believe, not on who they are or how they stand to benefit or not benefit. It's downright absurd that you yourself are against affirmative action and think you have the right to criticize someone else for sharing the same viewpoint as you, regardless of what reasons you think are behind it. If you'd rather attack people personally than actually talk about the issue, it's Netphoria and you can do whatever you damn well please, but as far as I'm concerned it pretty much disqualifies your opinion.

Contrary to what you said, I think it's most pathetic when white people don't have the balls to actually think about the issue of AA for themselves and draw their own conclusions before they decide to support it just so they won't be accused of being racist or insensitive. When white people disagree with AA, have the confidence to know that they are not racist, and also put up with a certain percentage of minorities who perpetuate the victim mentality calling them racist, I think that's generally an admirable thing. And it helps. It's heartening to know that there are both white people and minorities who have the guts to think for themselves and allow other people to think for themselves. It's the kind of mature mentality that actually helps us get out of stupid messes like racial inequality instead of whining all day about it.



This doesn't directly have to do with what I was just talking about, but I already typed it up.

WHITE PERSON: YAY FOR AFFIRMATIVE ACTION!

MINORITY: UM, WHAT ARE YOU SO EXCITED ABOUT?

WHITE PERSON: WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? WE NEED AFFIRMATIVE ACTION! YAY! EQUALITY FOR EVERYONE! YAY!

MINORITY: GET OFF MY LAWN, YOU MORON. YOU'RE KILLING MY GRASS.

WHITE PERSON: HEY, YOU'RE THE ONE WHO STANDS TO BENEFIT FROM THIS! YOU SHOULD BE HAPPIER THAN ME!

MINORITY: I HAVE TO BE HAPPY NOW?

WHITE PERSON: DON'T YOU CARE ABOUT THE FUTURE OF YOUR COUNTRY? HOW DARE YOU CALL YOURSELF AMERICAN!

MINORITY: YOU CAN CALL ME SUSAN IF YOU WANT. JUST GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY DOORWAY. I'M KIND OF BUSY.

WHITE PERSON: DON'T YOU SEE HOW GOOD OF A THING THIS IS THAT THE GOVERNMENT IS GIVING YOU? DON'T YOU APPRECIATE IT?

MINORITY: NOT REALLY. I'D RATHER JUST BE TREATED THE SAME AS YOU OR ANYONE. GET OUT OF MY FACE.

WHITE PERSON: YOU PEOPLE ARE SO FUCKING UNGRATEFUL. I SWEAR. YOU'RE TOO FUCKING STUPID TO UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS WHAT'S BEST FOR YOU. JESUS. YOU PEOPLE.

[Desi]

GOD DAMN GUYS

[Lie]

Originally posted by Nimrod's Son
It is truly amazing to me that whenever economic standing is raised as a viable alternative to racial status as a barometer for preferential treatment is considered, that all of a sudden, the minorities get all pissed off.

That's a generalization that I'm sure many minorities would not appreciate. Of course some minorities are going to get pissed off. It doesn't say anything about minorities, it just says that in any given group that makes up part of the population, there are always going to be people like that.

[meow]

yay for roofies!

[Lie]

Originally posted by scouse_dave
i haven't met anyone in favour of it...white or otherwise

That's because you're from jolly ol' England.

[Nimrod's Son]

Originally posted by Lie


That's a generalization that I'm sure many minorities would not appreciate. Of course some minorities are going to get pissed off. It doesn't say anything about minorities, it just says that in any given group that makes up part of the population, there are always going to be people like that.

That was a generalization.. perhaps I should have said "a great deal of prominent minority leaders."

Jesse Jackson, for example... he's always preaching equality except where AA is concerned. When someone suggest economics be used as an alternative, he begins railing about the inequities of the past 200 years and ignores the issue.

Of course, that is the same "reverend" who preached family values and was busy knocking up chicks that were not his wife.

[meow]

Originally posted by Lie


That's because you're from jolly ol' England.

Dave puts the "Jolly" in Jolly ol' England.

[Nimrod's Son]

Originally posted by scouse_dave
i haven't met anyone in favour of it...white or otherwise

Things would have been a whole lot different if you could have grown cotton in the UK, smartass!

[Lie]

Originally posted by Nimrod's Son
That was a generalization.. perhaps I should have said "a great deal of prominent minority leaders."

Jesse Jackson, for example... he's always preaching equality except where AA is concerned. When someone suggest economics be used as an alternative, he begins railing about the inequities of the past 200 years and ignores the issue.

Of course, that is the same "reverend" who preached family values and was busy knocking up chicks that were not his wife.

Yeah, well, it's a phenomenon that occurs in any group where there's a fight for survival in any sense. People in any sort of minority or perceived minority tend to keep each other down, instinctually, unconsciously, or even on purpose, because there's a certain level of paranoia which doesn't exist in the general community, even though there are those in the "majority" who have it just as badly, if not worse, and no one convenient thing to blame it on.

What a lot of minorities don't seem to understand is that there are a lot of people who don't have that one convenient thing. Interestingly enough, though, that one thing, the race issue, is just as much of a handicap as it is a boost, and the fact that a lot of people refuse to believe this is what creates the problem in the first place. It weakens minority communities to the point where there often isn't enough of a source of strength to draw from and they're forced to cling to each other and draw a line between themselves and the white community, which isn't benefical, but once again, it's the paranoia factor. Affirmative action and the degrading effect that it has continues the psychological damage, regardless of the fact that many minorities are ready and willing to accept it. No amount of government aid will solve this problem. Our government needs to seriously get cracking on providing equal public education and I do believe in welfare for those who need it, due to the fact the every individual situation is different, but as far as actively evening the racial barrier, I don't think ANYTHING should be done.

If given the chance, left alone, and supported by funding for ECONOMIC inequality, the racial inequality problem, which, without economics, is entirely sociological, will eventually be solved by strong individuals, both minority and non. That's the only way to do it, and it all depends on IF we grow up, quit sweeping it under the rug, and give each other room to breathe.

[jczeroman]

Originally posted by Lie

If given the chance, left alone, and supported by funding for ECONOMIC inequality, the racial inequality problem, which, without economics, is entirely sociological, will eventually be solved by strong individuals, both minority and non. That's the only way to do it, and it all depends on IF we grow up, quit sweeping it under the rug, and give each other room to breathe.

what's the deal, lie? Why are your posts becoming more right?

[Lie]

Originally posted by jczeroman
what's the deal, lie? Why are your posts becoming more right?

Because, quite simply, I choose from day to day whether to post based on principle, sentiment, or for entertainment (which is the case more often than not).

And also probably because no matter how much my opinions line up, I don't consolidate them into a world view. If I believe anything religiously it's that every situation should be judged individually, that there are a lot of things I don't understand, and that human decency and a sense of humor is often more important than making your mind known, as actions are infinitely more important. When I argue about anything it's usually in defense of one or more of the above.

I think I'm extremely consistent in my views, but it doesn't surprise me if other people don't seem to think so, and I don't really mind so much, either.

[Mariner]

Originally posted by Lie

[Eulogy]

Originally posted by The Ace of Aces


Give me a call when you get your driver's license or hit puberty - whichever happens first you pretentious, spoiled, stereotypically white subarbanite twerp.

How about you let me know when you have anything to back up any of the dumbass comments you make.

I'm young. What's your excuse?

And calling me pretentious and spoiled is just hilarious. I'm as far from pretentious as anyone can get....and you don't know me at all, as corny as that sounds. So I'd like to hear how I'm spoiled. Really. Please tell me. I'd love to know.

[Mayfuck]

The point is lost on you, Elisabeth. I came into this thread and I did not argue affirmative action. I'm just razzing Nimrod's Son about being prejudiced (which he is.) I have to laugh whenever a white person says they feel victimized because of politically correct America. Nimrod's Son even posted it himself that he is angry at minorities because of things like affirmative action. That scares me. Why doesn't he direct his anger toward our government, toward the Supreme Court or toward white people who lets face it probably outnumber minorities in the pro-affirmative action group? I think this is a problem in America. I believe that insitutionalized racism has disintegrated for the most part, but now there is a subtle movement going on which is reflected in the media and that is giving the affluent white man something to fear whether it be "Islamic terrorists," affirmative action, or the growing trend of kidnapped affluent little white girls. (You notice kids like Elizabeth Smart and Jon Benet Ramsey get all this media coverage, but when a black kid gets abducted the press is nowhere to be found?) Unfortunately, Nimrod's Son represents a majority of middle America's views, which is in essence to perpetuate fear from minorities. I know this might all sound silly to most of you, but you're all mostly white and I wouldn't expect you to understand.

[pastor]

Originally posted by Mayfuck
The point is lost on you, Elisabeth. I came into this thread and I did not argue affirmative action. I'm just razzing Nimrod's Son about being prejudiced (which he is.) I have to laugh whenever a white person says they feel victimized because of politically correct America. Nimrod's Son even posted it himself that he is angry at minorities because of things like affirmative action. That scares me. Why doesn't he direct his anger toward our government, toward the Supreme Court or toward white people who lets face it probably outnumber minorities in the pro-affirmative action group? I think this is a problem in America. I believe that insitutionalized racism has disintegrated for the most part, but now there is a subtle movement going on which is reflected in the media and that is giving the affluent white man something to fear whether it be "Islamic terrorists," affirmative action, or the growing trend of kidnapped affluent little white girls. (You notice kids like Elizabeth Smart and Jon Benet Ramsey get all this media coverage, but when a black kid gets abducted the press is nowhere to be found?) Unfortunately, Nimrod's Son represents a majority of middle America's views, which is in essence to perpetuate fear from minorities. I know this might all sound silly to most of you, but you're all mostly white and I wouldn't expect you to understand.

[bonsor]

Originally posted by pastor

seconded.

[tweedyburd]

Originally posted by Mayfuck
I'm just razzing Nimrod's Son about being prejudiced (which he is.)

As long as folks like yourself continue to label others ad naseum as being "prejudiced" when they simply disagree with AA within the context of fairness (and not some cock-eyed story about how we're all just afraid of 'dark' people getting ahead of us), the longer people like yourself will be stuck in a vaccum of your own making, sitting in the wings snidely laughing about how white America just "doesn't get it." I don't know Nimrod's Son from Adam, but from what I've read of his posts, his beef isn't with minorities themselves, but rather in the patronizing way the government continues to handle things like AA and the continuing absurdity which is our borders. And yet you call him "prejudiced" just because he believes there is a more honorable road to acheiving success.

You're goddamn right many people rightly feel begrudged by politically correct America, because it's the people like yourself who start the mudslinging, name calling, and end up silencing, or at the very least quitening innumerable voices for fear of being labeled "racist." It's just as ridiculous as those on the far right who label free-thinking individuals as being "un-Patriotic" when they question the government's foreign policy. I get a kick out of the fact that you have your head so far up your ass that you will never be able to understand the detriment that you and others like yourself have had on many issues in the public discourse. It's your type of mindset that has fostered a culture of cynicism and elitism that in many cases could've been replaced by honesty and rational discourse.

And it's a classic technique of argument--rather than engage head on in the arena of ideas, slander your opponent in an effort disqualify his opinion from the start. That would be kind of entertaining if it weren't such a dated method of argument, but only on a juvenile level. Or, even better, buy into the catch-phrase of the day brought to you by someone like Norman Mailer, the infamous 'fear of minorities.' There very well may be some truth in that, but it dodges the issue entirely and serves little purpose in advancing the debate on things like AA. And it's also a red herring--a "hey, hey! look over here" ploy used when someone points out what they believe to be a bankrupt social policy. Telling people they're affraid of minorities also seems to be a way of drawing attention away from the victimology mentality, but then that's a whole other debate...

[Mayfuck]

You didn't read jack shit, tweedyburd. You jsut was some sorry I been drinking stuff but anaywey OH wow haha. Anyway, the positn SFUCK. Okay. Let me start this over. I can do thsi. Wow. \\

Ahem.

OK.

God dammit where was I.

Ok.

You didn't read jack shit, tweedyburd. I guess you missed the part where I said I was AGAINST affirmative action. I'm just calling out Nimrod's son. You blame me for not attacking the issue. Why would I attack the issue if I agree with him about affrimative action? I'm questioning his character and as he said before he siad he his anger is directed towrad minorites (you could look it up yourself) and that frankly scares because I know a lot of middle america thinks like that. I'm afraid that people like Nimrod's son will look at affirmative action and start fearing (look at his post about immigrants taking jobs. WTF. California;s unemployment rate is growing because Mexicans are taking all the strawberry picking jobs? Oh c'mon) and anger twoard wtf she dorpeed hjer calbe haha what? Oh. You know what I mean, guy. Just shutup John you're just angry 'cause you heard a bunch of stuff you d'nt wanna hear. YEah. NO. I said before hah I'm just going to hit submite now

[Lie]

Julio, the fact that you are against affirmative action and the fact that some people are against it for the wrong reasons is duly noted. I also agree with most of what you said. But you're getting too personal about this, you're warping the discussion, and to continue it would be like saying that I didn't care about the actual issue at all, when in fact I do.

[jczeroman]

Originally posted by Mayfuck

Ahem.

OK.

God dammit where was I.

Ok.

this was good...

[Lie]

Originally posted by jczeroman
this and the now legal anal sex that prompted it was good...

[jczeroman]

Originally posted by Lie

he he he... it's still early, please forgive me

[Lie]

Originally posted by jczeroman
he he he... it's still early, please forgive me

Hey, you should be asking him for forgiveness. I had nothing to do with it.

[Nimrod's Son]

Julio, I am consistantly amazed (although I shouldn't be) that you consider everything I say to be invalid because for some unknown reason, you consider me "a racist." You began calling me that because I made the aggregious error of assuming once that you spoke spanish.. wow, that's racism at its worst!

Thank you for admitting that you honestly had nothing to offer in this thread and instead just posted to "razz" me and discount my arguments (which support a side you believe in). It is people like you that halt democracy when you fight against a message because for some reason you don't like the messenger. If you had instead said something productive, perhaps people on this board would have some modicrum of respect for you, but instead your posts make you out to be one big joke.

Did I make any "racist" comments in here? No, I didn't. You keep calling me rich, white, and affluent. I am not rich, I am not affluent, and as I have stated, I am not fully "white." It is you who is looking at race and skin color as a determining factor, not I. Who is the real racist here? I grew up without very much, and everything I do have I worked very hard to earn. I'm far from "affluent," however. I did not grow up with a silver spoon in my mouth.

Finally, your point that I am a racist because I believe that illegal immigrants "are taking jobs" is insane. My problem is not with immigration; it is with illegal immigration. Yes, usually illegals work so-called "shit jobs," but years ago these were the jobs taken by high school students, college students, and those who can least afford to be out of work, the poor.

Unemployment is at its highest percentage in decades right now, and yes, I think illegal immigration is wrong. This country was built on immigration, and I support it, but that does not give someone the right to avoid due process, sneak into the country, take a job, put their kids in public schools that my taxes pay for, and receive welfare in the state of California. Sorry. If that is what you support, than come on out and say it. Go ahead and say that you support illegals over citizens. I do not have a problem with mexicans. I have a problem with illegal immigrants, the majjority of which do happen to be mexican. You simply cannot accept that one can be against illegal immigration without being a racist.

Maybe when you were a kid, white kids beat you up and made fun of you for some reason, and you feel this persecution complex and the need to lash out against everyone. It is much easier for you to call someone a racist than to actually make any legitimate points of your own.

I often disagree with people on this board, and they me, but I don't say that they personally are saying what they are because of their race, like you boil everything down to. I prefer to debate topics and arguments, what someone has to say, than resort to "razzing." I often disagree with people such as DeviousJ and mercurial on political issues, but we debate issues, we don't degrade ourselves like you have. I happen to like both DeviousJ and mercurial as well as respect them although I disagree.

If someone were to ask me whom the biggest racist on Netphoria is, without hesitation I would say "Mayfuck" because you're the one that seems to look at skin color more than anyone else. I don't think I am alone in that opinion.

[crescentfresh]

Why does anyone even bother arguing with Mayfuck? he is irrational and never has anything to say without it being in purpose of bashing someone personally. He calls ME a racist just because I know Nimrod's son. It's like talking to a 10 year old. I have never made a racist statement on these boards or elsewhere, and sometimes I just wonder if he's looking for a half-assed excuse just to hate someone.

Seriously, just stop. it is pointless.