L Ron Hubbard

[Cool As Ice Cream]

To JJ's credit, Psychiatry was an absolute scam and total quackery in those days.

[ninsp]

Originally Posted by redbreegull

we're not going to talk about judy in fact we're not going to talk about judy at all

it’s jouday you lynch pleb

[smashingjj]

Originally Posted by reprise85

JJ is basically telling everyone suicide is the only way

Definitely

[redbreegull]

Originally Posted by ninsp

it’s jouday you lynch pleb

well that's not how Agent Tamara Preston spells it in her capstone report

[ninsp]

Originally Posted by redbreegull

well that's not how Agent Tamara Preston spells it in her capstone report

the frost books aren’t canon fool

[redbreegull]

Originally Posted by ninsp

the frost books aren’t canon fool

...yeah a book written by the co-creator of the show, whom David Lynch himself says is responsible for over 50% of the world Twin Peaks, is not canon

of course lynch and frost themselves would probably not find the idea of canon particularly meaningful or helpful in the twin peaks universe which ostensibly is about the questions, not the answers. Lynch would probably say something like people can take and leave whatever they want and make whatever meaning they need to and that is more interesting to him than the idea of a universe with a concrete timeline and shit like that

[fuzzyroes]

Originally Posted by reprise85

it is and was purely a scam

This isn't true. Hubbard believed that he made a major psychology breakthrough. He contacted all the different government agencies excited about his work but they wouldn't give him the time of day. He would use the techniques on himself all of the time and many believe that he created dianetics in an attempt to help with his own mental illness.

The techniques of auditing and the main Scientology principles have helped a lot of people. It's not just a bunch of quackery. The problem with the church is all the cult like rules that go along with it. Some believe that if they did away with all of that, the therapy would be great.

Meanwhile you look at psychology in the 50's and they were just trying to make a buck and destroying lives by giving lobotomies and electric-shock therapy. It was complete quackery. It's no wonder why Hubbard was looking for a better solution.

Of course it all went to shit once he turned it into a religion, but that's neither here nor there.

[redbreegull]

Originally Posted by fuzzyroes

This isn't true. Hubbard believed that he made a major psychology breakthrough. He contacted all the different government agencies excited about his work but they wouldn't give him the time of day. He would use the techniques on himself all of the time and many believe that he created dianetics in an attempt to help with his own mental illness.

The techniques of auditing and the main Scientology principles have helped a lot of people. It's not just a bunch of quackery. The problem with the church is all the cult like rules that go along with it. Some believe that if they did away with all of that, the therapy would be great.

Meanwhile you look at psychology in the 50's and they were just trying to make an easy buck by destroying lives by giving lobotomies and electric-shock therapy. It's no wonder why Hubbard was looking for a better solution.

Of course it all went to shit once he turned it into a religion, but that's neither here nor there.

this must be a joke.

there's just no way

[fuzzyroes]

Originally Posted by Cool As Ice Cream

To JJ's credit, Psychiatry was an absolute scam and total quackery in those days.

What? you think lobotomies and electric shock therapy were sensible treatments? It was complete and utter quackery. No doubt about that at all.

[redbreegull]

Originally Posted by fuzzyroes

What? you think lobotomies and electric shock therapy were sensible treatments? It was complete and utter quackery. No doubt about that at all.

straw man fallacy.

god you're stupid

[fuzzyroes]

[fuzzyroes]

It can be debated whether Dianetics works or not and if you believe that it doesn't, then I understand why Reprise considers it a scam. But I think for something to be considered a scam, the creator has to have malicious intent in knowing that it's a con.

[fuzzyroes]

Like Joseph Smith was definitely hawking a scam. There's no way he believes what he's selling. Hubbard was a different case completely.

[redbreegull]

Originally Posted by fuzzyroes

It can be debated whether Dianetics works or not and if you believe that it doesn't, then I understand why Reprise considers it a scam. But I think for something to be considered a scam, the creator has to have malicious intent in knowing that it's a con.

Originally Posted by fuzzyroes

Like Joseph Smith was definitely hawking a scam. There's no way he believes what he's selling. Hubbard was a different case completely.

you're just literally too stupid to communicate with

[fuzzyroes]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

Jfc the sea org was not “an adventure.” They literally threw people overboard.

I'm not gonna suggest that his tactics weren't odd, but there was a documentary that interviewed some people who were on those initial boat trips and "adventure" is the word that continuously comes up. Everybody seemed totally smitten and in awe of the man...

Just watching old interviews, there's no doubt that he's incredibly charismatic and charming. I'm not surprised that so many people were drawn to him.

[ninsp]

Originally Posted by redbreegull

...yeah a book written by the co-creator of the show, whom David Lynch himself says is responsible for over 50% of the world Twin Peaks, is not canon

of course lynch and frost themselves would probably not find the idea of canon particularly meaningful or helpful in the twin peaks universe which ostensibly is about the questions, not the answers. Lynch would probably say something like people can take and leave whatever they want and make whatever meaning they need to and that is more interesting to him than the idea of a universe with a concrete timeline and shit like that

Well, as someone who has read and loved the books, Lynch outright said those are Frost’s stories, that’s it.

[fuzzyroes]

Originally Posted by redbreegull

you're just literally too stupid to communicate with

I'm not gonna get into it with ya RBG. It's too annoying for our other friends to skim through.

I will say this though. I don't think you're aware of what a scam is.

scam
skam/
nouninformal
noun: scam; plural noun: scams

1.
a dishonest scheme; a fraud.

Synonyms for scam are: cheat, deceive, trick, dupe ETC.

Hubbard fully believed in his writings and truly believed that they work and that the psychology industry was ignoring him in order to keep people ill. Dianetics wasn't a scam.

Of course once he died, David Miscavige took over the church and it's become a shit show but that's neither here nor there.

[fuzzyroes]

Now the religion in a lot of ways was a scam in that they had malicious ways of keeping people quiet and of course the money required to go up the ladder was disingenuous. The whole Xenu story or whatever, that's bonkers for sure... I'm strictly talking about the therapy aspect that I was discussing with Reprise.

[redbreegull]

Originally Posted by ninsp

Well, as someone who has read and loved the books, Lynch outright said those are Frost’s stories, that’s it.

I would say that's definitely not equivalent to saying there is a canon and the books aren't part of it. Like I said, Lynch has previously said Frost was over 50% responsible for the original series. The world of Twin Peaks is the confluence of both creators' visions. You could just as easily argue FWWM is not canon because Mark Frost had no significant input

You are assuming Lynch is like the ultimate God in this world which is something he has always denied. He has always emphasized that TP is both him and Mark Frost

[smashingjj]

Originally Posted by fuzzyroes

This isn't true. Hubbard believed that he made a major psychology breakthrough. He contacted all the different government agencies excited about his work but they wouldn't give him the time of day. He would use the techniques on himself all of the time and many believe that he created dianetics in an attempt to help with his own mental illness.

The techniques of auditing and the main Scientology principles have helped a lot of people. It's not just a bunch of quackery.

YES IT CLEARLY IS

[fuzzyroes]

The auditing and the techniques learned in the process of Going Clear have helped a lot of people.

Of course the endgame is always shit in Scientology, and that is the obvious problem. I'd never try and rationalize that.

The simple fact is that Dianetics wasn't created in order to be a scam... I'd say the scam sorta rose later in time in an opportunistic fashion as far as the religion is concerned. There's a definite difference in the Dianetics therapy compared to the actual religion. Complete different ball of wax.

[redbreegull]

Originally Posted by fuzzyroes

I'd never try and rationalize that.

interesting

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by fuzzyroes

This isn't true. Hubbard believed that he made a major psychology breakthrough. He contacted all the different government agencies excited about his work but they wouldn't give him the time of day. He would use the techniques on himself all of the time and many believe that he created dianetics in an attempt to help with his own mental illness.

The techniques of auditing and the main Scientology principles have helped a lot of people. It's not just a bunch of quackery. The problem with the church is all the cult like rules that go along with it. Some believe that if they did away with all of that, the therapy would be great.

Meanwhile you look at psychology in the 50's and they were just trying to make a buck and destroying lives by giving lobotomies and electric-shock therapy. It was complete quackery. It's no wonder why Hubbard was looking for a better solution.

Of course it all went to shit once he turned it into a religion, but that's neither here nor there.

deep breath...

psychology is a science based on evidence. you can't just say hey this thing seems cool pay attention to me and give me money! shit doesn't work like that, never has and never will. because it's a science and you need to follow the scientific method to come to a conclusion, not come to a conclusion and then try to reverse engineer the facts with whatever bullshit sounds good to you.

i'm not an expert on auditing but it is a strange form of psychotherapy, and it may help people if it wasn't attached to the CoS. But it is, and it's a scam because people are blackmailed to keep giving money to the CoS

as for lobotomies and shock therapy. two different things. shock therapy is still used today and actually works for a lot of people. however, it was barbaric back then because it wasn't perfected, and it did a lot of harm to people, and human rights violations were rampant in all forms of medicine at that time. but again it was in its infancy, and that doesn't excuse it being barbaric but it does explain it. we still have shock therapy and for some people it works very well and is no more taxing than a minor surgery. because it is more targeted and the patient is sedated.

lobotomies of course i won't defend. however, the idea of physically separating some parts of the brain from others is used today in some cases, such as intractable grand mal seizures. the idea has merit but the method was barbaric. now it can be used much more precisely for a small amount of problems.

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by fuzzyroes

It can be debated whether Dianetics works or not and if you believe that it doesn't, then I understand why Reprise considers it a scam. But I think for something to be considered a scam, the creator has to have malicious intent in knowing that it's a con.

many therapies can help and afaik it's basically a talk therapy. but scientology is only a tiny bit about the actual therapy. and L Ron created the religion, not just the therapy part of it.

[redbreegull]

fuzzy never met a snake oil he didn't like the taste of

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by fuzzyroes

Now the religion in a lot of ways was a scam in that they had malicious ways of keeping people quiet and of course the money required to go up the ladder was disingenuous. The whole Xenu story or whatever, that's bonkers for sure... I'm strictly talking about the therapy aspect that I was discussing with Reprise.

they are not separable. there's no such thing as patient-auditor privilege and what is disclosed is used against people later. yes the process of disclosing things that are bothering you can help you. that's called catharsis.

[fuzzyroes]

Good posts Reprise, I'll address them later when I have a little extra time because there's a lot there.

[redbreegull]

Originally Posted by fuzzyroes

what you said is above my knowledge level to debate and I will have to do some research before I can respond

.

[fuzzyroes]

No, that's not it. I'm going to run a few errands in a moment, and I don't wanna give some short response because then folks like you will chime in about " what a pithy response it is"

[slunken]

Originally Posted by reprise85

deep breath...

stops reading