God thread

[Trotskilicious]

snitching in an office gets you a promotion

and in the kitchen just the other day one of the guys was telling one of the shift leaders or maybe even the shop runner that someone was doing something wrong and the mgmt asked "who" and he says "I tell no names" (extremely same, i said), and that was received with a knowing nod and a chuckle idk its funny how shitty offices are is all im sayin

[vixnix]

Originally Posted by Poots

You claim to be a Christian but you don't believe in God? Am I reading that correctly?

Yes you are. "Believe in" is a very vague term - Hobbes (you may know him as the guy that wrote Leviathan, but he did also write about Christianity) actually talked about that back in the 17th century.

I claim to be a Christian because I make decisions every day guided by my faith.

In terms of my relationship with God - belief just isn't part of it. I guess it's a bit like Pascal's wager for me, there are various options that describe what reality would be like, with or without God - I choose to live as if God is real. And that's hard sometimes. It involves trust. And so I trust. That's why I call myself a Christian, because when it is hard to be a Christian - to forgive, to make amends, to give away instead of collect, to choose to serve others instead of having a rest and reading a book...in all those times I consider the gospels and everything else in the Bible, and the church traditions - the prayers we say, the liturgy etc. and that's what gives me the resolve to do what I do. Even then, all that stuff isn't enough on its own...what makes me act is trusting that all that stuff is really about something, it's not just a whole series of misinformed people engaging in meaningless activities. That takes trust, because there's no way I can know for sure either way.

But I don't believe God is real, not in the sense that I have expectations about God or about the role God plays in the world if God does exist.

[vixnix]

Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

The trulu fucked up part: while I'm rejoicing in my prospective latina lover my brother is about to do some serious time in a southern california prison. he is 24 and decent looking. if he makes it out sane/alive I will be surprised.

plz don't ask me questions about him his cases are so bad I can't talk aboit them. yeah. so you can guess what they are. sorry guys i have no one to talk to.

oh wow. So sorry to hear this. That's so screwed up. Why are some guys so disgusting in prison. I had hoped most prisons weren't like that at all. Some people act like animals with no cultivated humanity at all.

[FoolofaTook]

Originally Posted by vixnix

oh wow. So sorry to hear this. That's so screwed up. Why are some guys so disgusting in prison. I had hoped most prisons weren't like that at all. Some people act like animals with no cultivated humanity at all.

You think it is funny that my brother will most likely be raped? This inspired sarcasm in you?

Fuck off.

[reprise85]

uh took i think your sarcasm meter is broken

[vixnix]

Originally Posted by Poots

That is just very odd to me. There are a lot of weird New Age type feel-good things you could get into if that's all you want.

Christianity is a rigid belief system predicated on a fundamental set of truths, namely the birth, ministry, death and resurrection of Jesus, not to mention the basic belief in the actual God of the Old Testament.

Calling yourself a Christian and not believing in those things is really strange, to say the least. I guess I don't see the point if you're just going to treat the religion like a buffet.

The "fundamental set of truths..." and "basic belief in..." stuff was decided by a group of European men over a thousand years ago, and Christianity has been treated like a buffet ever since, to justify apartheid, genocide, persecution, racism...

Re-thinking what it means to be a Christian in a scientific age 2000 years after "the fundamental truths" of the life of Jesus does not make me weird New Age type feel-good things because that's all I want.

If anything, the determination to have an ignorant 1st century zealot's faith in the 21st century is the New Age feel-good stuff.

The determination to ask hard questions about my faith, to consider the evolutionary explanations for religion and the empirical evidence that my existence is a chance event set amongst the chaos of an unconscious universe - none of this feels good.

It would feel much better to assume I have all the answers, because they were written down by other people thousands of years ago.

Also, what makes you an expert on Christianity all of a sudden? Weren't you Mormon?

[vixnix]

Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

You think it is funny that my brother will most likely be raped? This inspired sarcasm in you?

Fuck off.

I'm genuinely really sorry that you thought I was being sarcastic I would never joke about something like that.

[cork_soaker]

when the darkness comes to me
when it fixes its gaze on me

[ohnoitsbonnie]

God knows Took is helpless

[cork_soaker]

god and i have differing opinions on that

[ohnoitsbonnie]

Me 2

[vixnix]

Originally Posted by Poots

Me a Mormon? lol, no
No, the truths of fundamentalist Christianity are laid out in the New Testament, which in turn was based on the prophecies of the Old Testament, not "a group of European men 1000 years ago." What priests and kings did through their warping of Christianity does not change the fundamentals of Christianity as a faith.

I think you will find however that the books of the New Testament, which as you say, were authored to indicate that the prophecies of the Hebrew bible had come to pass, were selected by the ecumenical councils. I'm not sure who you think the members of those councils were, if not European men, but I am interested to hear your ideas.

Originally Posted by Poots

In that respect, being a Christian in the 21st century is exactly the same as it was 2000 years ago. It's not an evolving belief system. Yes, you may interpret some things differently over time, but if you stray to far from the fundamentals, then at some point it ceases being Christianity.

I think if it were not an evolving belief system, the Reformation may not have occurred?

Originally Posted by Poots

You seem to think that disbelieving the core principles of Christianity (yes the Christianity of the Bible) does not disqualify you from being a Christian. But, by definition, it does.

"Christianity of the Bible" as I've said, is a system of propositions and collection of human-authored historical accounts that were assembled by the ecumenical councils. The definitions of Christianity - the Apostle's Creed, Nicene Creed, etc. - were formed and voted on by a group of European men. Even then, consensus over the words forming the creed (and thus Christian doctrine) did not occur. That is why the first split in the church occurred, and why the Eastern Orthodox church exists even today.

The need for a universal Christian faith only arose when the Roman empire adopted Christianity as the state religion. A number of signifiant changes occurred to the religion at that time - the Sabbath was shifted to Sunday, Christmas was celebrated at New Year, the Resurrection was celebrated at Easter time.

Christianity up until that point was a sect of Judaism. It became a Jewish-Pagan hybrid under the Romans.

If we are interested in genuine Christianity then, should we be more interested in this "Christianity of the Bible" as you say...or should we be more interested in the independent and disparate Christian sects and doctrines that existed before the ecumenical councils?

Originally Posted by Poots

I'm not trying to tell you what you can or cannot think or question, but it's silly to say that you adhere to a faith when you don't believe it's basic principles. It's not a self-help seminar where you take what you want, it's a religion. There are big differences.

I guess I hope after these responses that you see that the "basic principles" of Christianity vary between the different denominations, and have changed and splintered during the course of history, particularly since the enlightenment as massive shifts in human understanding and thinking occurred.

You would be hard pressed to find a Catholic Bishop, a Reformed Calvinist minister, a Lutheran minister, a progressive Methodist/Presbytarian/Anglican minister, and a Southern Baptist pastor who all agreed on what the "basic principles of Christianity" were.

Gay marriage, abortion, ordination of women - all of these things continue to split the church because there are fundamental disagreements about the "basic principles of Christianity".

Religion is a human phenomenon and human activity. Like any other, because of the dynamic nature of human culture, it changes. Accepting changes - for example, accepting that two humans of any gender can love each other and be honoured for their commitment to monogamy through marriage, and that something written long ago by people in an ancient and primitive culture about two men having sex is far more likely a product of that culture and not an expression of God's will for the world, is part of religion, not an abandonment of it.

What makes you think that you understand Christianity better than I do? Have you studied the history of Christianity?

[ohnoitsbonnie]

Hey, Jonny:

[TuralyonW3]

Originally Posted by qwerty sp

Atheism is a religion

Oh dear

[Run To Me]

Whoever said the thing about humankinds universal/inescapable capacity for reverence, I agree with that

I think everyone gots god(s). All you gotta do is talk to folks long enough, hear what they honor, cherish, revere, and you'll see their god

For example during a dark period of my 20's, I worshipped a wet, fleshy, chest-high thing, always yearning, burning for some kind of pleasure sacrifice (booze, pornjacks, weeeeeeed), mean and hateful when it didn't get its way. Glad I walked outta that church, finally

[TuralyonW3]

That's silly to ascribe "God" to whatever you're talking about

[Run To Me]

Maybe Demi-God then? My point is that imho the energies dedicated to debating the existence of a God or god(s) might be better spent critically evaluating the values that guide or motivate what we actually do, the stories (so often unquestioned and/or subconscious) that we relentlessly return to and "serve" on a habitual basis, and the ideal world we envision and would like to see

[vixnix]

Originally Posted by Poots

I have studied the history of Christianity extensively. And I disagree that the different denominations of Christianity differ on the "basic principles" of the faith. All believe in the virgin birth (mostly), the miracles and teachings of Jesus, and most importantly his death, burial, and resurrection for the remission of sins.

Christianity is supposedly the largest religion in the world with over 2 billion adherents. I don't know why you are so attached to the idea that all 2 billion members of my religion are different to me, and I don't really belong to the group, but to me it doesn't seem feasible that my faith is so radically different from all 2 billion other Christians, that I shouldn't call myself a Christian.

Originally Posted by Poots

It's the details where the denominations split. But any denomination that calls themselves Christian and does not believe the above would be very odd indeed (the Unitarians I think still call themselves Christian but it's bullshit).

It would only be odd if you unquestioningly accepted that Christian faith was described in its complete form by the creeds, and the creeds should never be amended or re-written. I'm not sure why you are so attached to this, either.

Originally Posted by Poots

Gay marriage, abortion, when Christmas and the sabbath should be observed, woman ministers, etc are not central tenants of the faith, so of course different denominations view them differently. The fundamentals that I mentioned above have not changed in 2000 years, though our views on gays might, for example. I hope you see the difference.

Actually, those fundamentals have changed in the last 2000 years. As I mentioned, it was the ecumenical councils that decided which aspects of Jesus's life were accurately recorded in the various gospel accounts. It was from there that they assembled a list of propositions that constituted Christianity.

These creeds were created because most people didn't read, and so needed a concise summary of the religion to memorise Suzuki-style, by listening rather than reading.

Our views on romantic relationships have changed because we have examined both our previous attitudes and the Bible/Church doctrine itself, because our modern day experiences inspire us to do that. That's good IMO.

Doing that more won't cause us to abandon our religion. It'll allow us to remain part of it.

Originally Posted by Poots

The Reformation happened not because of an evolving belief system but because the Catholic Church had so corrupted and twisted the Bible that a change was made.

Luther taught that salvation and, subsequently, eternal life are not earned by good deeds but are received only as the free gift of God's grace through the believer's faith in Jesus Christ as redeemer from sin. His theology challenged the authority and office of the Pope by teaching that the Bible is the only source of divinely revealed knowledge from God[3] and opposed sacerdotalism by considering all baptized Christians to be a holy priesthood.[4] Those who identify with these, and all of Luther's wider teachings, are called Lutherans, though Luther insisted on Christian or Evangelical as the only acceptable names for individuals who professed Christ.

Sounds like an evolving belief system to me.

see how the Church had strayed so far from the teachings and spirit of Christianity.

A lot of Christians I know feel this way about the current church, in light of what I've said about the early ecumenical councils, and the multiple Jewish Christian sects that existed before an "official" Christianity was born.

Originally Posted by Poots

Regardless, to call yourself a Christian, a general belief in some form of God goes without saying, so when you claimed to be a Christian but then said there was no God I of course found that very interesting. If you are one of those people that really thinks the sayings of Jesus are cool and he is a positive example for our society then great, but there are millions of atheists who say the same thing. It would seem that you are one of them.

"Believing in" something (as I previously mentioned) has been criticised since Hobbes, as a vague term.

On top of that, God is a symbolic term. It has no meaning until one is ascribed to it.

Consider the symbolic term commonly used in algebra, x. It makes no sense to say that x exists or does not exist. Similarly, the same is true about the symbolic term "God".

I make no committed, genuine statements about "believing in God" because the sentence "I believe in God" has no tangible meaning without paragraphs of qualification that nobody is really interested in hearing about.

Where and how did you extensively study Christianity? Are you Catholic?

[Trotskilicious]

Originally Posted by Run To Me

Whoever said the thing about humankinds universal/inescapable capacity for reverence, I agree with that

I think everyone gots god(s). All you gotta do is talk to folks long enough, hear what they honor, cherish, revere, and you'll see their god

ur right go spurs go

[vixnix]

Originally Posted by Run To Me

Whoever said the thing about humankinds universal/inescapable capacity for reverence, I agree with that

I think everyone gots god(s). All you gotta do is talk to folks long enough, hear what they honor, cherish, revere, and you'll see their god

For example during a dark period of my 20's, I worshipped a wet, fleshy, chest-high thing, always yearning, burning for some kind of pleasure sacrifice (booze, pornjacks, weeeeeeed), mean and hateful when it didn't get its way. Glad I walked outta that church, finally

I think it does make sense to use the word God in this context.

[Trotskilicious]

KAWHI IS A GAWD

[ohnoitsbonnie]

I know what Suzuki-style means

[Trotskilicious]

i was hoping poots would call me a race traitor for liking basketball instead of golf

[ohnoitsbonnie]

Originally Posted by Poots

Christianity is not defined by creeds written by priests. It is defined by fundamentals in the New Testament. You can argue that the books that got put into the New Testament might have left out a few alternate viewpoints but it remains that the major themes of Christianity (that Jesus was God's Son sent to earth to die and be resurrected for the salvation of humanity) are seen in every book of the New Testament. This is the central belief of Christianity.

Luther based his argument on a literal interpretation the Bible, not some fanciful new beliefs. He and the rest of Europe had been actively deceived as to the true meaning of the Bible by the Catholic Church. In that respect, the Reformation was a return to the original principles of Christianity as defined by the New Testament. It stripped away all of the additions of the Catholic Church that were not based on the source material, the Bible.

Trying to define Christianity through something other than the Bible is absolutely pointless. Trying to say that you are a Christian when you don't believe the Bible is absolutely pointless. Saying that you are a Christian but you can't really know what God is shows a complete ignorance of the Bible, because what God is and who Jesus was and what he was doing here is specifically stated in the Bible.

If you want to create a religion that takes some aspects of Christianity and combines it with some eastern mystical thought and a dash of secular humanism, then you won't be the first. But to sit there and say that is Christianity is asinine. It's like joining the army and telling the drill instructor "I'm not sure about all this war and guns and stuff, I'm just here to get in shape."

Christianity is not a salad bar where you take what you want and reject the other things like "you can't define what God is because it's a symbolic term." Well yes you can define God if you're a Christian because a Christian believes in the Bible which certainly defines God as more than some vague concept. I don't understand the effort of going to church and investing time and effort into the whole thing if you're going to be so wishy washy about it. Either decide if you believe it or leave it off.

Who gives a shit

[ohnoitsbonnie]

You have freedom of religion as far as I'm concerned, E

[vixnix]

Originally Posted by Poots

Christianity is not defined by creeds written by priests. It is defined by fundamentals in the New Testament. You can argue that the books that got put into the New Testament might have left out a few alternate viewpoints but it remains that the major themes of Christianity (that Jesus was God's Son sent to earth to die and be resurrected for the salvation of humanity) are seen in every book of the New Testament. This is the central belief of Christianity.

Luther based his argument on a literal interpretation the Bible, not some fanciful new beliefs. He and the rest of Europe had been actively deceived as to the true meaning of the Bible by the Catholic Church. In that respect, the Reformation was a return to the original principles of Christianity as defined by the New Testament. It stripped away all of the additions of the Catholic Church that were not based on the source material, the Bible.

Trying to define Christianity through something other than the Bible is absolutely pointless. Trying to say that you are a Christian when you don't believe the Bible is absolutely pointless. Saying that you are a Christian but you can't really know what God is shows a complete ignorance of the Bible, because what God is and who Jesus was and what he was doing here is specifically stated in the Bible.

If you want to create a religion that takes some aspects of Christianity and combines it with some eastern mystical thought and a dash of secular humanism, then you won't be the first. But to sit there and say that is Christianity is asinine. It's like joining the army and telling the drill instructor "I'm not sure about all this war and guns and stuff, I'm just here to get in shape."

Christianity is not a salad bar where you take what you want and reject the other things like "you can't define what God is because it's a symbolic term." Well yes you can define God if you're a Christian because a Christian believes in the Bible which certainly defines God as more than some vague concept. I don't understand the effort of going to church and investing time and effort into the whole thing if you're going to be so wishy washy about it. Either decide if you believe it or leave it off.

This way of thinking is now hundreds of years out of date, IMO.

I'm not sure why it means so much to you - are you a Christian? Are you Catholic?

If we're going to be concerned with the Bible, do you see any parallels between your own rigidity and say, that of the Pharisees?

[vixnix]

I'm not sure if it is just some masterful trolling. I am impressed, if it is

[vixnix]

Originally Posted by ohnoitsbonnie

You have freedom of religion as far as I'm concerned, E

I hope so. Let's be glad Poots is not able to become the self-appointed Minister in charge of the Protection of Christianity

[smashingjj]

i wonder what poots means by 'i have studied the history of christianity extensively'

[LaBelle]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity