millennial apathy

[ninsp]

Originally Posted by Disco King

Somebody explain to be how science disputes being trans without invoking some pinheaded naturalistic fallacy that first-year philosophy students wouldn't even make

It's not a naturalistic fallacy, it's that gender dysphoria is classified as a Mental Health Disorder. And to fix this disorder, we now mutilate bodies.

The reality is in fifteen years or so once we've moved on to the next phase of society we will be able to look at gender dysphoria without the political and social passion, instead on a scientific level. Only then, once we've divorced academic and passionate understanding of dysphoria, can we look for a cure for it that doesn't involve such medieval ends.

This, of course, is controversial, no different from cochlear implants with deaf people, and the search for a cure for autism. The next big medical vs social schism will be a medicine based cure for dysphoria.

I really sympathize from those suffering from gender dysphoria. Today's 'cure' is not a modern cure.

[vixnix]

I have to say, at an academic level I don't understand gender being a construct and then people wanting to be a different gender - if it's a construct, why not just be what you are, free of constructs?

But at a personal level, I mean nobody understands why they feel the way they do, or what they can do to change it, so we all just muddle along doing the best we can and in that way a trans identity is no different to any other, and every trans journey is different, eery human journey is different. I don't want to spread any hate

[ninsp]

Originally Posted by vixnix

I have to say, at an academic level I don't understand gender being a construct and then people wanting to be a different gender - if it's a construct, why not just be what you are, free of constructs?

But at a personal level, I mean nobody understands why they feel the way they do, or what they can do to change it, so we all just muddle along doing the best we can and in that way a trans identity is no different to any other, and every trans journey is different, eery human journey is different. I don't want to spread any hate

Gender, while, yes is a construct, sex is not. This is my issue--transition surgery is wrong. I support equal transgender rights, etc. Just not transition.

A world where you could pick your gender would be the ideal, but society doesn't work that way. There is no reason that a biological male can't wear dresses and heels and go out into society as a female, by gender. So because of society, these people are forced to mutiliate themselves to fit in. THAT'S my problem, but RBG is too simple minded to comprehend that.

[duovamp]

You have it backwards. We used to deal with it by trying to tell these people they needed to feel otherwise. We tried drugging them, we tried changing their minds. But that only caused more suffering. Now we have the medicine to help their bodies conform to how THEY want to look, which is a valuable thing for them to finally feel like their bodies fit their identity. We tried to focus on changing their identity before we could allow them to change their bodies, and that failed, so now there is a new approach. See also: every scientific publication in the last 30 years on the matter, which you willfully avoid reading. Scientists aren't making this up for political reasons.

[ninsp]

Originally Posted by duovamp

You have it backwards. We used to deal with it by trying to tell these people they needed to feel otherwise. We tried drugging them, we tried changing their minds. But that only caused more suffering. Now we have the medicine to help their bodies conform to how THEY want to look, which is a valuable thing for them to finally feel like their bodies fit their identity. We tried to focus on changing their identity before we could allow them to change their bodies, and that failed, so now there is a new approach. See also: every scientific publication in the last 30 years on the matter, which you willfully avoid reading. Scientists aren't making this up for political reasons.

Modern psychology doesn't support transition. Academics and "activists do".

You can't say gender is a construct, then change your biological sex. If you change your sex to match your gender, then you're saying that gender is directly tied to sex.

Which, it's not.

Judith Butler and Anzaldua bring up excellent points and make empassioned pleas. But they're not scientific.

[vixnix]

Originally Posted by ninsp

Gender, while, yes is a construct, sex is not. This is my issue--transition surgery is wrong. I support equal transgender rights, etc. Just not transition.

A world where you could pick your gender would be the ideal, but society doesn't work that way. There is no reason that a biological male can't wear dresses and heels and go out into society as a female, by gender. So because of society, these people are forced to mutiliate themselves to fit in. THAT'S my problem, but RBG is too simple minded to comprehend that.

This is what I don't understand though, if a biological male wears dresses and heels he is not going into society as a female by gender. Gender is a construct, so by definition the male has not taken on a female gender, but a particular and specific part of the female gender. If all gender is a construct, then why wouldn't a male who felt female, be able to continue in the same wardrobe as before, given how many females wear pants, shirts, work boots, coveralls, etc.? Why is the transition to female gender so often (I have no data...this is just my perception) based on makeup, dresses and heels? Wouldn't that be more a case of wanting to enlarge the male identity as including those practices, given that adopting them doesn't align one with the female gender, in any accurate or straightforward way?

[vixnix]

With all that said, my lack of understanding is definitely academic and honestly I would never question an individual's transition - at a personal level nothing about humans makes any sense, anyway, so there's no point asking too many questions trying to understand. We're better off just accepting people for who they ask us to accept them as.

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by ninsp

Gender, while, yes is a construct, sex is not. This is my issue--transition surgery is wrong. I support equal transgender rights, etc. Just not transition.

A world where you could pick your gender would be the ideal, but society doesn't work that way. There is no reason that a biological male can't wear dresses and heels and go out into society as a female, by gender. So because of society, these people are forced to mutiliate themselves to fit in. THAT'S my problem, but RBG is too simple minded to comprehend that.

How are they forced to mutilate themselves, as you put it? Plenty of transgender people don't ever transition, or want to transition. And to want to transition to the opposite sex to match one's gender identity is not about changing one's biological sex per se, it is about wanting to feel more comfortable in your own body. It has nothing to do with anybody else, and is a personal decision.


BTW, psychology generally is supportive of transition. And "dysphoria" is a word that has meaning in and of itself, as the feeling of uneasiness that comes with some situation. "Gender dysphoria" is a mental heath condition because it causes significant personal distress in those who feel as if they do not belong in their bodies or otherwise feel unease with their assigned gender.

The disease is the subjective feeling of distress, not the actual condition of being transgender. They specifically changed it to gender dysphoria in the DSM 5 to make this clear.

[Disco King]

Originally Posted by ninsp

It's not a naturalistic fallacy, it's that gender dysphoria is classified as a Mental Health Disorder. And to fix this disorder, we now mutilate bodies.

One could just as well say:

"Necrosis is classified as a health condition. And to fix this condition, we mutilate now bodies."

"Laryngeal cancer is classified as a health condition. And to fix this condition, we now mutilate bodies."

"Epilepsy is classified as a health condition. And to fix this condition, we now mutilate bodies."

Originally Posted by ninsp

The reality is in fifteen years or so once we've moved on to the next phase of society we will be able to look at gender dysphoria without the political and social passion, instead on a scientific level. Only then, once we've divorced academic and passionate understanding of dysphoria, can we look for a cure for it that doesn't involve such medieval ends.

Your argument is a purely emotional one. You still haven't explained why the practice is wrong. You just called it "Medieval," which seems to me to be an appeal to emotion.

Originally Posted by ninsp

This, of course, is controversial, no different from cochlear implants with deaf people, and the search for a cure for autism. The next big medical vs social schism will be a medicine based cure for dysphoria.

You're not really supporting your point, you're just making an appeal to the future. "I'm right because well in 15 years everybody will agree that I'm right."

Originally Posted by ninsp

I really sympathize from those suffering from gender dysphoria. Today's 'cure' is not a modern cure.

Again, this sentence doesn't really explain anything.

Originally Posted by vixnix

I have to say, at an academic level I don't understand gender being a construct and then people wanting to be a different gender - if it's a construct, why not just be what you are, free of constructs?

But at a personal level, I mean nobody understands why they feel the way they do, or what they can do to change it, so we all just muddle along doing the best we can and in that way a trans identity is no different to any other, and every trans journey is different, eery human journey is different. I don't want to spread any hate

Originally Posted by ninsp

Gender, while, yes is a construct, sex is not. This is my issue--transition surgery is wrong. I support equal transgender rights, etc. Just not transition.

A world where you could pick your gender would be the ideal, but society doesn't work that way. There is no reason that a biological male can't wear dresses and heels and go out into society as a female, by gender. So because of society, these people are forced to mutiliate themselves to fit in. THAT'S my problem, but RBG is too simple minded to comprehend that.

They are not "forced" to get surgery. It's elective. And, if anything, they have to fight for it. Trans people have been fighting to get coverage for the drugs and procedures they need, have been fighting to get access to the doctors who can reassign them, and have been tolerating long wait lists. The amount of trouble they go through to do it, despite the obstacles in their way, demonstrates that its voluntary.

Many people are just transgender and are content to express a different gender without altering their bodies. That doesn't mean that people who aren't content to just do that shouldn't get surgeries.

Originally Posted by ninsp

Modern psychology doesn't support transition. Academics and "activists do".

The largest metastudy I know of is by Murad et al. (2010). They analyzed 28 studies and found that 80% of people studies with gender identity disorder reported significant improvements in gender dysphoria, and reported minimal gender dysphoria comparable to a control group's, and much lower than the group of untreated people with GID. Most reported improved body image, self-confidence, and did not regret their decision. Suicide-attempt rates stayed higher than the general population, but still decreased after reassignment. 80% reported a higher quality of like, and most were satisfied with their hormonal therapy.

Originally Posted by ninsp

You can't say gender is a construct, then change your biological sex. If you change your sex to match your gender, then you're saying that gender is directly tied to sex.

Which, it's not.

Not all transsexuals transition because of gender roles or wanting to act feminine/masculine. For some, it's an entirely physical issue. They just feel that their bodies are wrong.

It's hard to imagine, but the best analogy I can think of is this: if you are a man, imagine that tomorrow, you just started growing breasts. If you are a woman, imagine tomorrow, you started growing facial and chest hair, an Adam's apple, and a penis. Since you're used to being whatever sex you are, you wouldn't be very comfortable with this. You would feel your body is "wrong" and you'd want to change back.

For transsexuals, the subjective feeling is, as I understand it, similar to what I just described, only they didn't actually start out as whatever sex they want to be. At least a couple I've talked to spoke about their frustrations during puberty, because the changes it brought felt like their bodies were rebelling against them.

For the transsexuals that do seek a different gender role, though wanting their sex to align with their gender of choice may reaffirm the cultural connection between sex and gender, so does expressing the gender that correlates with the sex you were born with, and yet you haven't criticized people that do that. Why are you holding transsexuals to a higher standard than cissexuals? Why is it only them who have to bear the burden of leading the way in rejecting constructed gender roles?

What are you doing with your behaviour to bravely challenge the gendered expectations of sex?

[Disco King]

Oops don't know why I accidentally quoted a Vix post in my last one. Nothing I said is a response to it, just in case anybody's wondering.

[Disco King]

But yeah now that I'm talking about it anyway, I would agree that I don't really get the attitude "gender is an arbitrary construct of socially-prescribed and -proscribed behaviours, roles and expressions based on sex; therefore, you should be able to choose which of the packages of constructed arbitrary behaviours, roles and expressions you want," but I guess what I'm saying is that it doesn't matter because these people should be free to do it anyway and it's not like I'm going out boldly challenging gender roles myself, because I'm a male who unambiguously expresses as a man.

[vixnix]

Right, so that answers my question then...it's not so much about wanting to change gender necessarily, as wanting to present in public in a way they feel comfortable and happy with, and because society is an ugly judgmental beast, it makes it easier to dress in what is commonly associated with femininity, if they present themselves as fully female, rather than an effeminate male.

I think that makes a lot of sense. Most of us are trapped in that rut.

[fuzzyroes]

Originally Posted by vixnix

This is what I don't understand though, if a biological male wears dresses and heels he is not going into society as a female by gender. Gender is a construct, so by definition the male has not taken on a female gender, but a particular and specific part of the female gender. If all gender is a construct, then why wouldn't a male who felt female, be able to continue in the same wardrobe as before, given how many females wear pants, shirts, work boots, coveralls, etc.? Why is the transition to female gender so often (I have no data...this is just my perception) based on makeup, dresses and heels? Wouldn't that be more a case of wanting to enlarge the male identity as including those practices, given that adopting them doesn't align one with the female gender, in any accurate or straightforward way?

Yeah, I don't really understand the whole transgender thing, but what I don't get is how so much of it is based on trying to appear a certain way... It's like "I identify as a woman so I'm gonna wear a bunch of makeup, get fake breasts and wear dresses" It seems to me like a pretty simplistic ideology of what it means to be a woman.

[redbreegull]

At least you are aware you don't understand I guess

[fuzzyroes]

I mean, how does clothing even have anything to do with a gender aside from on a superficial level? Who cares what a person wants to wear. Go wear a sheet out in public for all I care.

I know it's a sensitive topic, but I'm more inclined to agree with SPNIN on this one.

[fuzzyroes]

Originally Posted by vixnix

Right, so that answers my question then...it's not so much about wanting to change gender necessarily, as wanting to present in public in a way they feel comfortable and happy with, and because society is an ugly judgmental beast, it makes it easier to dress in what is commonly associated with femininity, if they present themselves as fully female, rather than an effeminate male.

I think that makes a lot of sense. Most of us are trapped in that rut.

Don't mention that conclusion out in public. SJW's will have you crucified.

[redbreegull]

I mean it just doesn't matter what you think. You don't have to understand. All you have to do is let people live their lives any way they want to live them and accept that this is just fine so long as they aren't harming people.

[Disco King]

Originally Posted by vixnix

Right, so that answers my question then...it's not so much about wanting to change gender necessarily, as wanting to present in public in a way they feel comfortable and happy with, and because society is an ugly judgmental beast, it makes it easier to dress in what is commonly associated with femininity, if they present themselves as fully female, rather than an effeminate male.

I think that makes a lot of sense. Most of us are trapped in that rut.

I'm not sure that that's what I was saying at all. I might not had been very clear. But at the same time, I am no authority on the subject, so I'm probably not the person to look to to explain the subjective experience of being gender dysphoric or trans.

Originally Posted by fuzzyroes

I know it's a sensitive topic, but I'm more inclined to agree with SPNIN on this one.

Thank you. Perhaps now ninsp will understand that he or she must be mistaken.

Originally Posted by fuzzyroes

Don't mention that conclusion out in public. SJW's will have you crucified.

I like this meme of "SJWs will kill you lol for not sharing their opinion, lol" when I can't think of very many examples of anybody killing for the cause of allowing trans people to use the bathroom of their choice or more minority representation in movies or marriage equality, but I can think of plenty of examples of people killing for the cause of transphobia, white supremacy, male supremacy/xenophobia, religious intolerance, homophobia, anti-miscegenation, etc.

There's a huge moral panic about "SJWs" somehow destroying free speech in this part of the world (even though the sort of sentiments they protest against have never really gone away; only, the people who profess them now do it with a halo of "boldly standing against censorship"), but it tends to be right-wing nuts that restrict people's freedom of expression through violent force the most.

[fuzzyroes]

@RBG: No doubt. I definitely agree.

Where it becomes sort of a grey area for me is how doctors often wanna let kids transition before they hit puberty... And I mean is a kid really aware or smort enough to make a life altering decision like that?

I think theres a lot more understanding that needs to be learned but doctors are all too willing to cash in on letting people transition.

[fuzzyroes]

Originally Posted by Disco King

I'm not sure that that's what I was saying at all. I might not had been very clear. But at the same time, I am no authority on the subject, so I'm probably not the person to look to to explain the subjective experience of being gender dysphoric or trans.



Thank you. Perhaps now ninsp will understand that he or she must be mistaken.



I like this meme of "SJWs will kill you lol for not sharing their opinion, lol" when I can't think of very many examples of anybody killing for the cause of allowing trans people to use the bathroom of their choice or more minority representation in movies or marriage equality, but I can think of plenty of examples of people killing for the cause of transphobia, white supremacy, male supremacy/xenophobia, religious intolerance, homophobia, anti-miscegenation, etc.

There's a huge moral panic about "SJWs" somehow destroying free speech in this part of the world (even though the sort of sentiments they protest against have never really gone away; only, the people who profess them now do it with a halo of "boldly standing against censorship"), but it tends to be right-wing nuts that restrict people's freedom of expression through violent force the most.

Yeah man, I couldn't care less about the whole "bathroom outrage". It's incredibly silly to me. I was only referring to Vix's sensible comment. If you're not aware: The trans-gender community doesn't think that trans-genderism stems from something as simplified as what Vix said.

[fuzzyroes]

Originally Posted by fuzzyroes

@RBG: No doubt. I definitely agree.

Where it becomes sort of a grey area for me is how doctors often wanna let kids transition before they hit puberty... And I mean is a kid really smart enough to make a life altering decision like that?

I think theres a lot more understanding that needs to be learned but doctors are all too willing to cash in on letting people transition.

Of course the same thing has happened with the prescription drug debacle. Whether it's the whole Ritalin craze or the pain-killer epidemic.

[duovamp]

Are doctors "cashing in" on transitioning?

And these kids know well before puberty how they feel.

[Cool As Ice Cream]

Originally Posted by duovamp

Are doctors "cashing in" on transitioning?

And these kids know well before puberty how they feel.

Of course the same thing has happened with the prescription drug debacle. Whether it's the whole Ritalin craze or the pain-killer epidemic.

[duovamp]

Trans people only started to exist like a year ago so it's a fair point. Big Trans is duping you and your kids right along with Big Pharma. The gay agenda is a car driven by Satan that runs on money.

And by money I mean gold.

And by gold I mean shekels.

[Rairun]

I do disagree with the "male/female mind trapped in a female/male body" narrative, but there are plenty of transgender people who also disagree. To be transgender, you don't actually have to be a gender essentialist, though some trans people certainly are essentialists (most cis people also are, and they are just as wrong).

I've seen people casting suspicion on transgender people because they are perceived to adopt hyper-feminine/masculine clothing and behaviors. According to the critics, it's really offensive how transgender people end up upholding stereotypical gender roles. This is an ignorant assessment - transgender people are way more diverse than they think - but even if it weren't, they need to take into account that this is the only (barely) socially acceptable way for transgender people to express themselves. I'm not only talking about social pressure here - the medical establishment withholds treatment from those who fail to perform gender to their arbitrary standards.

I'm not transgender, but I have experienced very minor and fleeting moments of gender dysphoria. I don't have any issues being identified as a male, and when people look at me, they do see a man. I have male privilege. But it's also true that I have always felt very alienated from male culture, and I never really did things that boys were supposed to do. That never made me think I wasn't male, just that I didn't fit in with most other men. Maleness kind of puts me off.

The thing about my appearance is that I always looked very boyish. When I looked in the mirror in my teens and twenties, I didn't see a man, I only saw myself. Now, in my early thirties, sometimes I catch a glimpse of myself in the mirror, and it's very strange to see a person who looks more like a man than a boy. It's not that I hate growing old, just that for a split of second, I feel a sense of estrangement because I recognize a man in that image. So when I try to imagine what a lot of transgender people feel like, I assume it's kind of like this, except 10000x stronger and more persistent. It's not really about clothes or an innate sense of gender - it's that you grow up associating certain signifiers with certain meanings, with certain groups of people, and for some people it's very hard or impossible to undo these associations. It's not just an intellectual thing. It's the gut feeling you get when you are confronted with certain images, and this is particularly tricky when those images are you and your body.

[ninsp]

Originally Posted by duovamp

Are doctors "cashing in" on transitioning?

And these kids know well before puberty how they feel.

Being a tomboy does not mean you're transgender, for fucks sake. No problem with experimenting, but transitioning (and by this I mean hormones) before 18 is just bad parenting. If my kid is transgender and thinks he is before 18, awesome. I will support him dressing and doing what he wants. But until he has become an adult, no fucking way will they be transitioning.

[duovamp]

If you think being transgendered is anything like being a tomboy, you should never speak on this topic again.

[Starla]

We hired a millennial to help in the office, and after her schedule was made, she went home and called to ask if the schedules are "set in stone".

[duovamp]

We just hired a 50-year-old woman for this office to work part time. She started about a month ago. She put in her 2 weeks notice this morning because she didn't want to work 33 hours a week, she wanted to work 20. She felt like she was misled by HR.

[Starla]

Originally Posted by ninsp

Being a tomboy does not mean you're transgender, for fucks sake. No problem with experimenting, but transitioning (and by this I mean hormones) before 18 is just bad parenting. If my kid is transgender and thinks he is before 18, awesome. I will support him dressing and doing what he wants. But until he has become an adult, no fucking way will they be transitioning.

And that is why we have a high rate of transgender people committing suicide. Why force them to wait until they're 18 to be who they are? Isn't it better to be supportive, and be there for them while they are young and need you? I have seen children extremely fearful of their parents judgement over being LGBTQ. They suffer years of depression, isolation and so much more. With loving and supportive parents... these children have a higher percentage of growing up to be happy and functional in their lives well into adulthood.