Conservative bigots try to say homosexuality isn't genetic

[SOUL PWR]

So my bigoted conservative brother in law sent me this article about homosexuality, claiming that it's not genetic. I'm not incredibly well versed on the subject and I wanted to see if any of you had any responses to it that I could use. I always thought gays were just born that way. Is there some study that contradicts this and this is just more bigoted conservative propaganda?

http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/blog/2...s-not-genetic/

Identical Twin Studies Prove Homosexuality is Not Genetic

Eight major studies of identical twins in Australia, the U.S., and Scandinavia during the last two decades all arrive at the same conclusion: gays were not born that way.

“At best genetics is a minor factor,” says Dr. Neil Whitehead, PhD. Whitehead worked for the New Zealand government as a scientific researcher for 24 years, then spent four years working for the United Nations and International Atomic Energy Agency. Most recently, he serves as a consultant to Japanese universities about the effects of radiation exposure. His PhD is in biochemistry and statistics.

Identical twins have the same genes or DNA. They are nurtured in equal prenatal conditions. If homosexuality is caused by genetics or prenatal conditions and one twin is gay, the co-twin should also be gay.

“Because they have identical DNA, it ought to be 100%,” Dr. Whitehead notes. But the studies reveal something else. “If an identical twin has same-sex attraction the chances the co-twin has it are only about 11% for men and 14% for women.”

Because identical twins are always genetically identical, homosexuality cannot be genetically dictated. “No-one is born gay,” he notes. “The predominant things that create homosexuality in one identical twin and not in the other have to be post-birth factors.”

Dr. Whitehead believes same-sex attraction (SSA) is caused by “non-shared factors,” things happening to one twin but not the other, or a personal response to an event by one of the twins and not the other.

For example, one twin might have exposure to pornography or sexual abuse, but not the other. One twin may interpret and respond to their family or classroom environment differently than the other. “These individual and idiosyncratic responses to random events and to common environmental factors predominate,” he says.

The first very large, reliable study of identical twins was conducted in Australia in 1991, followed by a large U.S. study about 1997. Then Australia and the U.S. conducted more twin studies in 2000, followed by several studies in Scandinavia, according to Dr. Whitehead.

“Twin registers are the foundation of modern twin studies. They are now very large, and exist in many countries. A gigantic European twin register with a projected 600,000 members is being organized, but one of the largest in use is in Australia, with more than 25,000 twins on the books.”

A significant twin study among adolescents shows an even weaker genetic correlation. In 2002 Bearman and Brueckner studied tens of thousands of adolescent students in the U.S. The same-sex attraction concordance between identical twins was only 7.7% for males and 5.3% for females—lower than the 11% and 14% in the Australian study by Bailey et al conducted in 2000.

In the identical twin studies, Dr. Whitehead has been struck by how fluid and changeable sexual identity can be.

“Neutral academic surveys show there is substantial change. About half of the homosexual/bisexual population (in a non-therapeutic environment) moves towards heterosexuality over a lifetime. About 3% of the present heterosexual population once firmly believed themselves to be homosexual or bisexual.”

“Sexual orientation is not set in concrete,” he notes.

Even more remarkable, most of the changes occur without counseling or therapy. “These changes are not therapeutically induced, but happen ‘naturally’ in life, some very quickly,” Dr. Whitehead observes. “Most changes in sexual orientation are towards exclusive heterosexuality.”

Numbers of people who have changed towards exclusive heterosexuality are greater than current numbers of bisexuals and homosexuals combined. In other words, ex-gays outnumber actual gays.

The fluidity is even more pronounced among adolescents, as Bearman and Brueckner’s study demonstrated. “They found that from 16 to 17-years-old, if a person had a romantic attraction to the same sex, almost all had switched one year later.”

“The authors were pro-gay and they commented that the only stability was among the heterosexuals, who stayed the same year after year. Adolescents are a special case—generally changing their attractions from year to year.”

Still, many misconceptions persist in the popular culture. Namely, that homosexuality is genetic – so hard-wired into one’s identity that it can’t be changed. “The academics who work in the field are not happy with the portrayals by the media on the subject,” Dr. Whitehead notes. “But they prefer to stick with their academic research and not get involved in the activist side.”

[reprise85]

epigenetics. basically nurture does play a big part, but nurture actually affects your gene expression, and at that point it's "nature". basically, nurture changes your brain, not your DNA but how your DNA is turned on and off at different points in its physical strands.

this can happen in the womb or any time after. and just because identical twins shared a womb, doesnt mean they had exactly the same experience.

i'd also question the stats in general, there's data much higher than 11% or 13% etc.

also, compare it to schizophrenia. schizophrenia is mostly genetic, but identical twins are only correlated with it at approx 50%. they have identical DNA.

[reprise85]

decent article in laymen's terms

http://www.latimes.com/science/scien...007-story.html

[Aeris]

why does it matter if it's genetic or not
it doesn't

[redbreegull]

it doesn't matter at all socially

pretty interesting from a scientific perspective

[reprise85]

It's a principal, that you can't discriminate against someone if their trait is genetic or otherwise not a choice. So skin color, gender, or age, etc. Obviously it shouldn't matter but for some religious people it is presumably a way they logically decide to support tha gayz even though it goes 'against' the bible.

I mean it's stupid but I like to think support is a good thing. People like belte will talk til they're blue in the face how not respecting someone's sexual orientation isn't the same as racism because orientation is a choice (in his opinion). And how gay marriage is a civil right and not a human right. etc. honestly at this point we probably should be past just taking any support we can get so yeah who cares

[Aeris]

i know why it matters for certain people but for us in our liberal bubble why does it matter
i don't care if people accept "born this way" for queer stuff
who cares if it's genetic or a preference
leave people alone
what if someone identifies as something but is "missing" whatever genetic markers they find
it's just going to make them an easy target for ostracizing

[reprise85]

that's a good point. luckily we dont live in a society that examines people's genes and the methylation thereof

[redbreegull]

this is obviously coming from a totally hetero person, but in the big picture, don't you think that better factual understanding of what homosexuality is among the masses would be a good thing? At this point people who believe steadfastly it is a choice are being willfully ignorant and intellectually dishonest to maintain their prejudice. They're just hateful. But there's so much misunderstanding and fear. Is it a culture? Is it genetic? Are people born gay? Are all gay people born gay? Is it possible to switch sexual preference? What is bisexuality and how does that play into it? Maybe I'm being stupid because of my scientific curiosity... but knowing that certain people will hate homosexuals no matter what and try to twist any info on it against them regardless of what that info says, it just seems like as a society we can only benefit from asking these questions. I think for a lot of conservatives it's like this scary bogeyman thing

[FoolofaTook]

that's like so totally ironic!

[Elphenor]

Yeah in simple terms genes are affected by environments which is how sexuality can even flip back and forth without ever being any more a choice than your height

This also explains why homosexuality persists through natural selection

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by Elphenor

Yeah in simple terms genes are affected by environments which is how sexuality can even flip back and forth without ever being any more a choice than your height

This also explains why homosexuality persists through natural selection

the spooky thing is that the epigenetic changes (activation/deactivation) to your genes can be transmitted to your progeny even though it doesnt cause a gene mutation (protein chains are still the same)

transgenerational epigenetic inheritance

[FoolofaTook]

So when I was in Inner Mongolia my coworker was this burly, boisterous Brit/Paki dude. Anyways he assured me one evening that it had been scientifically proven by Pakistani scientists that homosexuality is a mental disorder. When I disagreed he immediately asked he if I was gay.

Sometimes I think that Malefic is right and our species really needs to be utterly eradicated.

[redbreegull]

Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

When I disagreed he immediately asked he if I was gay.

that's some fuzzyroes logic

[FoolofaTook]

yup. has happened to me a bunch of times. it probs doesn't help that I am "feminine": endowed with the waist of a blushing maiden and the frail wrists of a death camp survivor.

o yah the long hair doesn't help either.

[The Omega Concern]

Originally Posted by SOUL PWR

So my bigoted conservative brother in law sent me this article about homosexuality, claiming that it's not genetic. I'm not incredibly well versed on the subject and I wanted to see if any of you had any responses to it that I could use. I always thought gays were just born that way. Is there some study that contradicts this and this is just more bigoted conservative propaganda?

http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/blog/2...s-not-genetic/

That's a good trick; admitting you're not well versed on the subject but absolutely sure you in-law is a bigot about it.


It's not a study, but in San Francisco high schools they do ask students of their orientation. The numbers who claimed being gay or lesbian were extremely high compared to other populaces, inherently suggesting the claims of such to be environmental and social, not genetic.

[The Omega Concern]

To give another point of view on the matter, S.F. has a niche of Log Cabin republicans. Many of these men choose to follow their religion over their sexuality and are abstinent to adhere to their doctrine.

One of these men was interviewed on a local radio show and when asked about his sexuality as a choice he answered, "Who the hell would choose this? Nobody chooses this." It's a profound answer because to me it was a big indicator that for him it wasn't a choice and was indeed genetic.

[hnibos]

Did you never think of that viewpoint before?

[reprise85]

Choice of who you're attracted to is, at the least, not the majority experience. Not nearly.

Of course one can control their behavior of who they have sex with but of course only (some) religious people think that's the same thing as "orientation being a choice"

[TuralyonW3]

totally irrevelant whether it's genetic or not

[Elphenor]

Originally Posted by The Omega Concern

It's not a study, but in San Francisco high schools they do ask students of their orientation. The numbers who claimed being gay or lesbian were extremely high compared to other populaces, inherently suggesting the claims of such to be environmental and social, not genetic.

No it suggests that there is more homosexuality than documented, everywhere

Just in SF the culture is less repressive

[redbreegull]

TOC's understanding of homosexuality has entered the 1970s. This is momentous.

[The Omega Concern]

Originally Posted by hnibos

Did you never think of that viewpoint before?

Certainly, but what's puzzling about this fervor to find some genetic answer to homosexuality is that you don't hear much from the gay men who are perfectly fine with the awareness it is their choice.

[Elijah Moon]

It's surely a truism that if sexuality were a choice we'd all be bisexual (before choosing sides), or a complete blank slate

[redbreegull]

I have a good friend who is, as far as I can tell, probably totally gay, but he militantly insists it is a choice that he doesn't understand why he makes... pretty sad situation, he has a lot of psychological trauma and is very sexually repressed, grew up in a crazy Catholic family, etc. He can't really hold down a job and relies very heavily on his parents to support him, and his evil mother basically holds aid to him over his head in return for not seeking out male romantic companionship.

my point is that I don't want to diminish the point of view or the reality of gay people who see it as a choice, but citing this tiny tiny tiny minority of the gay population as evidence that all homosexuality is a choice is almost impossibly stupid and intellectually dishonest

[Elphenor]

Originally Posted by Elijah Moon

It's surely a truism that if sexuality were a choice we'd all be bisexual (before choosing sides), or a complete blank slate

exactly

if any choice is involved you are bisexual by definition

[redbreegull]

and of course even then the choice is who are you involved with, not who are you attracted to

[FoolofaTook]

god is gay

[FoolofaTook]

so are my frolicsome halflings!

[killtrocity]

Originally Posted by reprise85

epigenetics. basically nurture does play a big part, but nurture actually affects your gene expression, and at that point it's "nature". basically, nurture changes your brain, not your DNA but how your DNA is turned on and off at different points in its physical strands.

this can happen in the womb or any time after. and just because identical twins shared a womb, doesnt mean they had exactly the same experience.

i'd also question the stats in general, there's data much higher than 11% or 13% etc.

also, compare it to schizophrenia. schizophrenia is mostly genetic, but identical twins are only correlated with it at approx 50%. they have identical DNA.

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