this Woody Allen shit

[redbreegull]

Originally Posted by pavementtune

Didn't know about that.

Weird to be reminded that 20 years ago a court apparently didn't give a fuck if a child has been molested. Mia brought it up when they got divorced, nothing happened other than that he lost custody rights. Today a child psychologist would at least spend 15 minutes to talk to a 7 year old to make a decision if the allegations should be persued or not.

yeah there were charges brought against woody allen but he was acquitted on lack of evidence. A psychological examination was done on dylan farrow and it was reported that there was strong evidence she had been coached. so go figure. evidence both ways, can't decide. Guess I'm a fucking rapist

[pavementtune]

Originally Posted by redbreegull

yeah there were charges brought against woody allen but he was acquitted on lack of evidence. A psychological examination was done on dylan farrow and it was reported that there was strong evidence she had been coached. so go figure. evidence both ways, can't decide. Guess I'm a fucking rapist

Dammit, what kind of shit media have I been reading again. The article said she wasn't examined as a kid.

This coaching thing is tricky, whatever happened. How do you prepare your child to be asked about awful shit it can't possibly comprehend by a stranger? "Did he xy?" - might already suggest something that isn't really accurate.

What happens now anyway? Over 20 years, can rape accusations after such a period even go to court in the US? Or is it one ugly media battle - her word against his - until both are sufficiently judged and taken apart by the general public?

[JESUSNEEDSAHIT]

del

[JESUSNEEDSAHIT]

how do use delte button

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by pavementtune

Dammit, what kind of shit media have I been reading again. The article said she wasn't examined as a kid.

This coaching thing is tricky, whatever happened. How do you prepare your child to be asked about awful shit it can't possibly comprehend by a stranger? "Did he xy?" - might already suggest something that isn't really accurate.

What happens now anyway? Over 20 years, can rape accusations after such a period even go to court in the US? Or is it one ugly media battle - her word against his - until both are sufficiently judged and taken apart by the general public?

First degree felonies have no statute of limitations in many, if not most, states. And rape on a minor under 12 years old is a first degree felony in Florida, and similar crimes probably are in other states (might be different age cutoffs or whatever).

There is no question in my mind that Dylan got molested. If she reported it spontaneously originally (which according to her she did), there is absolutely no reason to think it's not true. Human memory is is of course not only fallible, but malleable. That is something I've had to accept about my own memory. So some details of the abuse are almost certainly factually incorrect, because remembering something also includes the memory of remembering it previously - if you get what I'm saying - and confabulation happens to everyone. But if we just look at the major charge - the Allen molested her - I think it's overwhelming likely that he did.

[pavementtune]

There is no question in my mind that Dylan got molested

How can people be so absolutely certain? Do you know her, have you talked to her? You are basing your psycholigical evaluation on an open letter and newspaper articles.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting she wasn't. But how anybody could say "I'm SURE she was or she wasn't" by reading a few pages goes straight over my head.


Edit: I wrote that while you added to your post, reprise. Now I get it, okay.

[pavementtune]

And did I understand that correctly, no limitation and first degree means Allen is facing a proper trial?

[Toast]

i support woody's pedophilia, but not his films. separate the art from the artist

[Order 66]

Originally Posted by pavementtune

And did I understand that correctly, no limitation and first degree means Allen is facing a proper trial?

he could but no prosecution would ever bother ... unless it was filmed or she had a stained dress or whatever would link to her being molested

my 2 cents is he's a creep and probably did it. if it walks like a duck, ect. but it's also possible mia put ideas in her head. unlikely, but possible

[pavementtune]

Reprise, how will she be able to remember as "clearly" as possible?

Years ago I met a woman, mid twenties. She went through hell and back battling with her own memory. Comparable situation (at least I think it's comparable), she was a year younger, 6, when she got molested at home. Her mother found her, deeply disturbed of course, and was sure it must have been her husband's cousin who was staying with them.
The woman I talked to said she was sure her entire life that it was indeed that man (who went to jail for it.) Until she had a long talk with her father, as an adult. He was drunk and apologized for having molested her. She had years of therapy until her mind brought back little peaces of clear memories of her father.

[Euronomus]

So many things stated here are false.

Soon Yi was in no way Allen's daughter, he never adopted her, lived with her(or even spent the night in the same house) or in any way had a father-daughter relationship with her. To quote Mia farrow-"“(woody)had little to do with any of the Previn children, (but) had the least to do with Soon-Yi”. Until Mia made them spend time together(after Soon Yi was an adult) they had barely spent any time together. If you want to attack him for marrying a woman decades his junior go ahead, but don't conflate that with child molestation or "grooming a child" because there is zero evidence such a thing happened, and a ton of evidence it didn't.

As far as charges brought against Allen, there were none, because a 6-month police investigation found no evidence molestation had occurred, but they did find evidence to believe Mia had coached Dylan. None of the adults in the house at the time the incident was said to have occurred believed Allen had enough time alone with Dylan to even leave the room, let alone take her to the attic and molest her. Mia's nanny even claimed Mia had threatened her job if she didn't support the molestation charges(she quit and recorded a sworn statement that supported Allen's innocence).

Dr John M. Leventhal who helmed the medical team assigned to the case stated “She told us initially that she hadn’t been touched in the vaginal area, and she then told us that she had, then she told us that she hadn’t.” He also said the child’s accounts had “a rehearsed quality.” At one point, she told him, “I like to cheat on my stories.” The sworn statement further concludes: “Even before the claim of abuse was made last August, the view of Mr. Allen as an evil and awful and terrible man permeated the household. The view that he had molested Soon-Yi and was a potential molester of Dylan permeated the household… It’s quite possible —as a matter of fact, we think it’s medically probable—that (Dylan) stuck to that story over time because of the intense relationship she had with her mother.” Leventhal further notes it was “very striking” that each time Dylan spoke of the abuse, she coupled it with “one, her father’s relationship with Soon-Yi, and two, the fact that it was her poor mother, her poor mother,” who had lost a career in Mr. Allen’s films. “We had two hypotheses: one, that these were statements made by an emotionally disturbed child and then became fixed in her mind. And the other hypothesis was that she was coached or influenced by her mother. We did not come to a firm conclusion. We think that it was probably a combination.”


Is it possible that at some point Allen molested Dylan? of course, is it probable? absolutely not.

[vixnix]

yeah I don't know, either way. There isn't enough evidence that it happened, but then this kind of thing is easy to cover up.

And children of that age have a fairly fluid and plastic sense of reality still, and are often desperate to please any grown ups they're with, so their stories about anything change all the time.

I don't know them well enough to have an opinion, but from what I've read, I agree with Euronomus, the age gap is confronting and concerning but how they met isn't. Soon Yi came into Mia Farrow's family aged 8, so she was more like a foster child than an adopted child. I think it's inflammatory and inaccurate to say that she was a sister to Ronan/Satchel.

[Trotskilicious]

this is like the polanski debates

hey guys you can say woody is a degenerate pederast and still enjoy crime and punishment, it's okay

[bignothing]

Well, on that note we should remember that Mia Farrow testified in favor of Roman Polanski, and the internet tells me she refers to him as a "friend". Not sure how much of it is true. I think everyone involved is messed up/trying to pin their children against one another. The other adopted son came out in Woody's favor and accused Farrow of being abusive herself. He also said that the abuse "obviously" didn't happen. It's telling that Woody has been able to adopt two other kids, when adoption laws are so strict (might be a failure of the legal system because he's rich and powerful though...) I mean, obviously Woody is a creep - this part of his personality is clear throughout pretty much all of his work I'm familiar with ("Whatever Works" is particularly telling imo). None of us know what happened, but I guess it comes down to "having to apologize" for not believing an already creepy man did these things, or apologizing about not believing a little girl/now young woman who has suffered the abuse. It depends on what you are most comfortable with. Evidence after all this time is impossible and money involved makes everyone who testified questionable, so... Either way, I like to stay neutral, especially when it seems quite likely that both sides are crazy. All I know is I have like no memory of my childhood, so I can't really relate to how both Dylan and Moses say they remember the day so clearly - I think they've both been told a version of the events and just truly believe it happened.

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by pavementtune

Reprise, how will she be able to remember as "clearly" as possible?

Years ago I met a woman, mid twenties. She went through hell and back battling with her own memory. Comparable situation (at least I think it's comparable), she was a year younger, 6, when she got molested at home. Her mother found her, deeply disturbed of course, and was sure it must have been her husband's cousin who was staying with them.
The woman I talked to said she was sure her entire life that it was indeed that man (who went to jail for it.) Until she had a long talk with her father, as an adult. He was drunk and apologized for having molested her. She had years of therapy until her mind brought back little peaces of clear memories of her father.

I don't know if she can remember more "clearly", and even if should could, she wouldn't know if it was more accurate and we wouldn't know either. The only person who knows exactly what happens is Woody Allen - whether he did it or didn't do it - and if he did, the details of how it happened.

[reprise85]

This whole thing has brought up a lot for me w/r/t my family issues... which are not unsimilar in some ways. It tears up my brain constantly that I don't know exactly what happened and never will. Seriously, I obsess about it daily. I already did, but the way I see people reacting is really hitting home. BTW, I'm not saying anyone who is neutral or skeptical is doing anything wrong morally or whatever.

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by bignothing

Well, on that note we should remember that Mia Farrow testified in favor of Roman Polanski, and the internet tells me she refers to him as a "friend". Not sure how much of it is true. I think everyone involved is messed up/trying to pin their children against one another. The other adopted son came out in Woody's favor and accused Farrow of being abusive herself. He also said that the abuse "obviously" didn't happen. It's telling that Woody has been able to adopt two other kids, when adoption laws are so strict (might be a failure of the legal system because he's rich and powerful though...) I mean, obviously Woody is a creep - this part of his personality is clear throughout pretty much all of his work I'm familiar with ("Whatever Works" is particularly telling imo). None of us know what happened, but I guess it comes down to "having to apologize" for not believing an already creepy man did these things, or apologizing about not believing a little girl/now young woman who has suffered the abuse. It depends on what you are most comfortable with. Evidence after all this time is impossible and money involved makes everyone who testified questionable, so... Either way, I like to stay neutral, especially when it seems quite likely that both sides are crazy. All I know is I have like no memory of my childhood, so I can't really relate to how both Dylan and Moses say they remember the day so clearly - I think they've both been told a version of the events and just truly believe it happened.

1. The Roman Polanski stuff is unsettling.

2. The son wouldn't know if sexual abuse happened, it's really worthless for him to say it didn't. Obviously it was hidden if it did happen, so how can he say he knows for sure it didn't happen?

3. I bet Farrow was abusive, too.

4. Obviously the mom has a vendetta against Allen, but who knows how much of that is because of the sexual abuse (if it did happen) in the first place. Also, that doesn't preclude the possibility that she already had a vendetta AND Allen molested Dylan.

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by Euronomus

So many things stated here are false.

Soon Yi was in no way Allen's daughter, he never adopted her, lived with her(or even spent the night in the same house) or in any way had a father-daughter relationship with her. To quote Mia farrow-"“(woody)had little to do with any of the Previn children, (but) had the least to do with Soon-Yi”. Until Mia made them spend time together(after Soon Yi was an adult) they had barely spent any time together. If you want to attack him for marrying a woman decades his junior go ahead, but don't conflate that with child molestation or "grooming a child" because there is zero evidence such a thing happened, and a ton of evidence it didn't.

As far as charges brought against Allen, there were none, because a 6-month police investigation found no evidence molestation had occurred, but they did find evidence to believe Mia had coached Dylan. None of the adults in the house at the time the incident was said to have occurred believed Allen had enough time alone with Dylan to even leave the room, let alone take her to the attic and molest her. Mia's nanny even claimed Mia had threatened her job if she didn't support the molestation charges(she quit and recorded a sworn statement that supported Allen's innocence).

Dr John M. Leventhal who helmed the medical team assigned to the case stated “She told us initially that she hadn’t been touched in the vaginal area, and she then told us that she had, then she told us that she hadn’t.” He also said the child’s accounts had “a rehearsed quality.” At one point, she told him, “I like to cheat on my stories.” The sworn statement further concludes: “Even before the claim of abuse was made last August, the view of Mr. Allen as an evil and awful and terrible man permeated the household. The view that he had molested Soon-Yi and was a potential molester of Dylan permeated the household… It’s quite possible —as a matter of fact, we think it’s medically probable—that (Dylan) stuck to that story over time because of the intense relationship she had with her mother.” Leventhal further notes it was “very striking” that each time Dylan spoke of the abuse, she coupled it with “one, her father’s relationship with Soon-Yi, and two, the fact that it was her poor mother, her poor mother,” who had lost a career in Mr. Allen’s films. “We had two hypotheses: one, that these were statements made by an emotionally disturbed child and then became fixed in her mind. And the other hypothesis was that she was coached or influenced by her mother. We did not come to a firm conclusion. We think that it was probably a combination.”


Is it possible that at some point Allen molested Dylan? of course, is it probable? absolutely not.

The problem with this evidence is that someone with Woody Allen's fame is not treated like Joe Schmoe who got accused of molesting is daughter. And even if she was coached, that doesn't mean she wasn't also molested.

If we had a recording, we could understand the interviews better. We have no way to know if she was asked leading questions one way or the other ("Did he touch you there? How about there?" OR "Are you sure he touched you there? It's okay if you lied, just tell me the truth) etc etc etc.

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by pavementtune

And did I understand that correctly, no limitation and first degree means Allen is facing a proper trial?

It means there's no cut-off on when he could be charged. If they got enough evidence to indict him (not going to happen), they could try him now. Or, if he is alive, they can try him in 20 years.

[pavementtune]

Woody Allen's (lenghty) response in the NYT, including details of the investigation back then:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/09/op...peaks-out.html


No matter which story seems more reasonable to anybody, this is a good question:

Finally, does Mia herself really even believe I molested her daughter? Common sense must ask: Would a mother who thought her 7-year-old daughter was sexually abused by a molester (a pretty horrific crime), give consent for a film clip of her to be used to honor the molester at the Golden Globes?

Edit: that didn't take long, her public response: http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/new...y-allen-678552

[slunken]

Originally Posted by reprise85

The problem with this evidence is that someone with Woody Allen's fame is not treated like Joe Schmoe who got accused of molesting is daughter.

Mia Farrow was and is a bigger celebrity than Woody. I always thought the rulings had more to do with her than Woody.

[redbreegull]

is the thing about Farrow supporting and remaining friends with Polanski true? I am too lazy to look it up

[slunken]

basically its just too groovy of a lifestyle than you'll ever know

[reprise85]

I guess I'm not aware of their respective celebrity statuses.

[reprise85]

Finally, does Mia herself really even believe I molested her daughter? Common sense must ask: Would a mother who thought her 7-year-old daughter was sexually abused by a molester (a pretty horrific crime), give consent for a film clip of her to be used to honor the molester at the Golden Globes?

While I can see how this question is legitimate and most people would find it a damning logical gotcha, I don't think that's necessarily so. People do all kinds of things for their image, especially those on a world stage. I interact with people who were abusive to me still, for personal reasons. People don't necessarily cut people off or refuse to interact with them even if they are terrible people, even child molesters. The film clip was of Mia, yes? And we can pretty much say she has her own problems and is perhaps narcissistic? Maybe she just wanted the attention from the Golden Globes. Maybe she had no idea what was going to come up after it happened. Maybe she did know and had some other reason for interjecting herself in the awards ceremony. Who knows. People are illogical.

[slunken]

Originally Posted by reprise85

I guess I'm not aware of their respective celebrity statuses.

well for starters she made a baby with frank sinatra

its quite possible that that's enough in old hollywood

[redbreegull]

Originally Posted by reprise85

While I can see how this question is legitimate and most people would find it a damning logical gotcha, I don't think that's necessarily so. People do all kinds of things for their image, especially those on a world stage. I interact with people who were abusive to me still, for personal reasons. People don't necessarily cut people off or refuse to interact with them even if they are terrible people, even child molesters. The film clip was of Mia, yes? And we can pretty much say she has her own problems and is perhaps narcissistic? Maybe she just wanted the attention from the Golden Globes. Maybe she had no idea what was going to come up after it happened. Maybe she did know and had some other reason for interjecting herself in the awards ceremony. Who knows.

people are not rational and do completely nonsensical shit that is bad for them or makes no sense all the time. you're right, rationality is just not a good test of motive.

but that is also why I have to roll my eyes when people use the why would she ever make this up, she has nothing to gain argument. People do shit for literally not decipherable reason on the reg, I just don't get how that is some sort of knock out in favor of Dylan Farrow. edit: I know you aren't saying anything like that reprise, I am just connecting your point to something I keep seeing in other arguments about this

[reprise85]

Both of the rebuttals are well crafted, and I still say it is very likely that something happened there with Dylan. But this is a shit-storm, and needs to stop. Allen will never admit it if he did do it, Mia will never admit she coached Dylan if she did, and Dylan has her memories, whether you want to believe they are factually correct or not. There is no clean ending to this, everyone is fucked in the media. This is exactly why I never want to do this kind of thing.

[pavementtune]

Originally Posted by redbreegull

people are not rational and do completely nonsensical shit that is bad for them or makes no sense all the time. you're right, rationality is just not a good test of motive.

but that is also why I have to roll my eyes when people use the why would she ever make this up, she has nothing to gain argument. People do shit for literally not decipherable reason on the reg, I just don't get how that is some sort of knock out in favor of Dylan Farrow. edit: I know you aren't saying anything like that reprise, I am just connecting your point to something I keep seeing in other arguments about this

Exactly.


The Globes weren't that long ago, and she agreed that her work was part of celebrating the genius of Woody Allen, who molested her kid that happens to make these accusations publicly a month later. Irrational, Illogical? Okay, reprise. With the exact same explanation you can treat everything Dylan and Mia said. Why would they make incorrect accusations? With your attempted reasoning, reprise, the answer could be "because people are illogical."

[reprise85]

You could apply that logic, yes.

If Dylan spontaneously reported being touched or whatever, at 7 years old - assuming that is true - I find it very likely it is true.

I also think people more often are correct in their memories of child abuse than incorrect.

I've been intimately involved in editing wikipedia articles related to false memory, and so I've read a lot of literature. I'm pretty familiar with the day care satanic panic stuff, and I do believe false memories happen. There are some very convincing researchers that believe false memories and adult manipulation of children is extremely widespread (see: Elizibeth Loftus) However, I believe memory is usually based on something and doesn't come out of nowhere.

Very few child molesters will ever admit their crime. That doesn't mean Woody Allen is guilty. But it does mean his denial is not unexpected or that it can be given much weight.

Bottom line: The only person who knows the truth, really, is Woody Allen. A seven year old cannot really understand what happened, and does not have the power of perspective that an adult has. However, if they tell someone quickly, they have the power of that immediate report that means a lot.

All my opinion.

I've known a lot of people with unprovable abuse. I have proof about some, and not about others. I think, if this had all been kept private, there would be nothing terrible going on in Dylan confronting her step father. But since it is so public, that changes everything.

Don't know what else to say.