I practically woke up one morning this week not depressed or suicidal any more

[reprise85]

goodnight, noyen.

i find your brain interesting. you do have that duality going on and it is very apparent. you seem like a swell guy, like i said before.

i had a taco avatar for a while. tacos rule

i'll be going to bed soon as well. thanks for the chat noyen, charmbag, luke, shallowed. very interesting

[Luke de Spa]

Originally Posted by Charmbag

like i don't think it's very useful or important to care that we are "meat robots" or whatever, i think that's actually a potentially very destructive way to approach life. i think that hyperventilating over religion or setting up a religion vs science paradigm is a huge waste. i honestly don't think you have to analyze very hard to figure out what is necessary to have a good community or society and honestly who cares about anything else. i think a lot of it also goes along with an obsession with self-actualization and that kinda shit which is all pretty overrated to me. this isn't to say that there is no use for high level analysis, obviously we need both, i'm just musing.

what's caring?

i tend to think mainly about outcomes. if we're all meat robots, well, whatever will happen will happen, right? (if that's the case, hyperventilating over religion or setting up a whatever is inevitable.) if we're not, well, why not? the balance of probability seems to be on the other side, so let's hear the arguments.

i try to focus on what's actually true, not what i want to be true. having a nice society where everyone is happy even though it's demonstrably a fiction is a … well, it's a thought experiment at least, but obviously it's unstable. the only way to fight it is to bypass rationality, which basically amounts to starting yet another religion.

meanwhile, the honest ones among us will just have to accept our best measurement of reality and just try to get on with things. cost of doing business

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by Charmbag

anything that leads to people devaluing life or their relationship to other people basically sucks and is worthless

i agree. i think no matter what is real or fake in the world, relationships are what we make of them, and are real. i personally cant trust anyone right now. i do but my brain goes crazy and thinks i'm being tricked. i am working on it. but until three months ago i had very little human interaction and now i have a ton so that helps

[null123]

Originally Posted by Luke de Spa

what's caring?

i tend to think mainly about outcomes. if we're all meat robots, well, whatever will happen will happen, right? (if that's the case, hyperventilating over religion or setting up a whatever is inevitable.)

i don't know what you mean. obviously you know that determinism doesn't mean that we should all lay down and wait for fate

if we're not, well, why not? the balance of probability seems to be on the other side, so let's hear the arguments.

i grasp the concept of determinism and us being meat robots and i'm not saying it's not true. only that thinking in those terms does not help us as humans.

i try to focus on what's actually true, not what i want to be true.

why? i (in my better moments) would rather focus on how my life and the lives of everyone else can be better

having a nice society where everyone is happy even though it's demonstrably a fiction is a … well, it's a thought experiment at least, but obviously it's unstable.

it's a fiction because it isn't true right now? there isn't a perfect society out there but there are better ways of coexisting and\ those are what we need to strive for.

the only way to fight it is to bypass rationality, which basically amounts to starting yet another religion.

religion and other things can sometimes be the poetic truths that humans need. i don't think we can get where we wanna go through "scientific truth" or whatever, alone.

meanwhile, the honest ones among us will just have to accept our best measurement of reality and just try to get on with things. cost of doing business

i used to be the smuggest new atheist wake-up-sheeple kinda person on the planet and i know what you're saying here but i just disagree. there isn't some higher plane of existence that the "intellectually honest" live on. with humans having limited minds, there is always going to be more than one truth for us depending on our values. your truth is the result of your values. the truths i'm interested in have to do with whatever makes humans function better in our little human way.

[null123]

that post is pretty meek. i better take out all the "i think"s

please quote the confident version thank you

[Luke de Spa]

short version: if determinism is true, we don't get a choice about lying down and waiting for fate. either we will or we won't. there's no choice, just bouncing valence states and electron exchanges

[Luke de Spa]

Originally Posted by Charmbag

the truths i'm interested in have to do with whatever makes humans function better in our little human way.

i like this. i'd agree with it had i not been primed to think about determinism this evening

[null123]

Originally Posted by Luke de Spa

short version: if determinism is true, we don't get a choice about lying down and waiting for fate. either we will or we won't. there's no choice, just bouncing valence states and electron exchanges

sure but we don't experience this fact so i ignore it because it can't help me make a decision. i guess i could go lie down though

[vixnix]

You guys know about hard and soft determinism right? Why not be a tentative compatibilist like me.

[null123]

i guess i have become a compatibilist in the sense that i no longer care that humans don't have free will on the metaphysical level

[vixnix]

That's a bold statement

[vixnix]

I'm used to you making them but not about this particular subject. I'm intrigged.

[null123]

yeah my 18-year-old self is really pissed at me

[Luke de Spa]

Originally Posted by Charmbag

sure but we don't experience this fact so i ignore it because it can't help me make a decision. i guess i could go lie down though

if it's a fact, "because" is meaningless. you'll do a or you'll do b and there will be underlying causes, but they won't be willed in the layperson sense

[vixnix]

Because you don't believe free will exists, anymore?

[null123]

Originally Posted by Luke de Spa

if it's a fact, "because" is meaningless. you'll do a or you'll do b and there will be underlying causes, but they won't be willed in the layperson sense

i know. i was only making a comment on whether it's worth spending time thinking about

[Luke de Spa]

Originally Posted by vixnix

You guys know about hard and soft determinism right? Why not be a tentative compatibilist like me.

yeah. i'm a hard determinist when forced to think about it. but i just can't seem to keep it stuck in my head

[null123]

Originally Posted by vixnix

Because you don't believe free will exists, anymore?

i used to be very concerned with the fact that our decisions are basically predetermined in the sense that human cognition doesn't change the causal nature of the universe. now i'm not that concerned with it because in the end we still have the experience of choice.

[Luke de Spa]

Originally Posted by Charmbag

i know. i was only making a comment on whether it's worth spending time thinking about

same thing applies. if it's a fact, "worth" is meaningless, either you'll think about it or you won't, ra ra ra

[vixnix]

Free will could exist in a causal environment depending on what you think free will is and where it comes from.

[Luke de Spa]

if it's not, well, probably it's worth thinking about. because there seems to be value in considering the nature of being. at least, that seems to be the case for me. so i'll continue thinking about it. if your experience differs: go eat a burger or something, whatever floats your boat

[vixnix]

I used to be a hard determinist

[null123]

Originally Posted by Luke de Spa

same thing applies. if it's a fact, "worth" is meaningless, either you'll think about it or you won't, ra ra ra

i have the experience of it being worthless

[null123]

Originally Posted by Luke de Spa

if it's not, well, probably it's worth thinking about. because there seems to be value in considering the nature of being. at least, that seems to be the case for me. so i'll continue thinking about it. if your experience differs: go eat a burger or something, whatever floats your boat

right i mean if you get enjoyment or stimulation out of thinking about it (and i do too so i can't say it's completely worthless) then fine. i just mean it doesn't have much practical application to my mind

[Luke de Spa]

Originally Posted by vixnix

Free will could exist in a causal environment depending on what you think free will is and where it comes from.

well, sure. x could exist under any conditions so long as you are prepared to make the definition of x subservient to said conditions.

perhaps there are causality-compatible definitions of free will that make sense but also work for the average layperson, but i've yet to encounter one

[vixnix]

Originally Posted by Luke de Spa

well, sure. x could exist under any conditions so long as you are prepared to make the definition of x subservient to said conditions.

perhaps there are causality-compatible definitions of free will that make sense but also work for the average layperson, but i've yet to encounter one

Who or what have you read on the subject

[null123]

the concept of determinism disturbed me SO BAD when i first figured it out and i didn't even know it was an actual thing so i would bring it up to literally everyone like "have u ever realized that there is no such thing as free choice???" and my brother was the only person who agreed with me and then i found out that it was called determinism and felt better.

[vixnix]

Yeah I remember overhearing my tutor say to my metaphysics lecturer "and how do the determinists get around that...?" and thinking oh you poor deluded person. I'm only in first year and I already have a head start on you because of your wishful thinking.

[Luke de Spa]

Originally Posted by Charmbag

right i mean if you get enjoyment or stimulation out of thinking about it (and i do too so i can't say it's completely worthless) then fine. i just mean it doesn't have much practical application to my mind

…but if it's true, there's no such thing as a practical application, and i could never help thinking about it in the first place…

if it's not true, why should we, if we aim to be dispassionate seekers of knowledge, shy from research on the basis of there being no apparent "practical applications"? those are unavoidably contingent upon our current – that is to say, finite, limited, compromised – understanding of the world. that's the same argument made by people who want to shut down NASA etc. – stop exploring, we know enough, there's no point

[null123]

my brain kind of breaks when you say "there is no such thing as practical application". so there was no such thing as practical application when penicillin was invented or the Communist Manifesto was written either. it's always been set in stone but we don't know what the outcome is going to be so we just do our thing.

otherwise I see what you're saying. it's a good thing to have in your back pocket, even if we don't know how it will be useful yet. I personally don't intend to spend more time with it because there are limited hours in a lifetime and it doesn't seem that useful to me, but who knows.