how do you know you're not a sociopath

[null123]

you have 2 b a sociopath like me and nimrod to understand

[noyen]

i knew a girl once very well who seemed sane but went on a sociopathic kick out of th blue for a year or two. not sure if she ever snapped out of it or not but is it something that develops in someone and then goes away or are they just born that way like donald trump?

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by pavementtune

Um..that's a pretty unfair statement. What exactly do you think the "nature" of getting to the position is?
And what happened to describing a person as selfish or egoistic, cruel or arrogant? Is it now en vogue to attest "sociopathic traits" instead?

sociopathic traits would be a combination of a lot of those things that is pervasive in the person's life

someone can be "just" selfish or egocentric or whatever, sure, of course they can

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by noyen

i knew a girl once very well who seemed sane but went on a sociopathic kick out of th blue for a year or two. not sure if she ever snapped out of it or not but is it something that develops in someone and then goes away or are they just born that way like donald trump?

it's debatable. most attribute it to both nature and nurture

there is testing that shows sociopaths have different emotional reactions to situations than "normal" people, and difficulty controlling their emotional responses (as in not having any), however that doesn't really help differentiate between cause and effect

but generally, if an adult starts being cruel and hurting people out of the blue there is something triggering it; it doesn't just "develop" in adults

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by vixnix

It's that mixture of charm, ruthlessness, delusion and self-interest that gets them to the CEO position usually, that sounds kinda sociopathic. Nb: I don't know what sociopathic means.

This is basically what I meant in summary. Of course it's not true for everyone, but when you think of lawyers and people who get into high positions by stepping all over others and oursourcing jobs and basically fucking other people over, that is the kind of stereotype you get into.

[pavementtune]

I guess you guys are talking about CEOs that I'd just desribe as assholes. A good CEO cares about the people working in the business, and delusions don't come handy in that position either.
Whatever, I'm not a fan of these behaviour generalizing terms.

[reprise85]

A sociopath just has many of those traits listed in the Psychopathy Checklist, it's not such a set in stone thing, it's a cluster of traits that in tandem make someone who is ruthless, has no empathy, and uses others to further their needs without further thought to the other person/people. If you couple that with someone who is sadistic, has criminal versitility and etc, those types of people do an disproportionate amount of damage to society and other people in general.

It is not the most useful label to use outside of criminal courts and hearings, I agree with that. But the thread asked the question so we all got into it.

[vixnix]

You seem to have a personal connection to CEOs....intriguing. I want to know more. Sociopaths like me need to know everything.

[noyen]

Originally Posted by reprise85

it's debatable. most attribute it to both nature and nurture

there is testing that shows sociopaths have different emotional reactions to situations than "normal" people, and difficulty controlling their emotional responses (as in not having any), however that doesn't really help differentiate between cause and effect

but generally, if an adult starts being cruel and hurting people out of the blue there is something triggering it; it doesn't just "develop" in adults

so if its triggered its not sociopathic? why cant it develop in the same way any other illness can? what if mental illness and depression is the trigger to sociopathic behaviors? are they then excused from such behaviors because they "cant help
it"? i find this discussion very circular because it seems to be a very singular, abstract and judgemental view. like yeah oj simpson probably was/is but thats just armchair labelling. seriously, who as in historically speaking was a famous textbook sociopath? hitler?

[vixnix]

I've only known one CEO and he was everything I described. He wasn't delusional in business, only when it came to self-awareness. Like whether he was a good husband or father and what it means to be those things and whose fault it was that his family was miserable....that kind of thing. The business he ran just fine...but it's the delusion about who you are and what you're entitled to that plagues the management and upper management I've known, usually. It is a generalization.

[pavementtune]

Breivik?

[vixnix]

As an example of a sociopath?

[pavementtune]

I think the delusion you're describing often goes along with people's focus on money and power. No idea if one is born to become that, or if it's kind of a side effect of the job.

[pavementtune]

Yep, noyen mentioned Hitler. When I think about one-word-labels, I don't know what else I'd call Breivik. But I'm also not sure where to draw the line between sociopath and psychopath?

[vixnix]

Yes I skim read and missed that...yeah i can't draw the line myself.

I don't want to point the finger at anyone, it's hard to say from just public knowledge of them..and no personal knowledge. That's my gut instinct.

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by pavementtune

Yep, noyen mentioned Hitler. When I think about one-word-labels, I don't know what else I'd call Breivik. But I'm also not sure where to draw the line between sociopath and psychopath?

the terminology is debated as everything else. Robert Hare says they are the same thing. most people, if they use both, see psychopath as the "nature"-type and sociopath as a more "nurture-type" personality. i use them interchangably

so when you, for example, i read an interview/therapy session thing with a five year old girl who was psychopathic. she wanted to kill her parents; she was cold and calculating; glib and smooth talking; she seemed obviously born with some inclination to become a psychopath, and to some she already was. i think maybe it's unfair to give that label to a five year old - the point is, whatever was nurtured was already there

then you have people who are stereotypically abused as children and then grow up to abuse; prototypically, they try to use this for example in the character of Dexter (which is problematic) - one who's emotional development was stunted by something so horrible that as a defense they became cut off from emotion

this doesn't take into account why some people go through similar things and one becomes personality disordered in some way and the other develops PTSD and depression, for example, later in life

this is all less useful than seeing the end product and figuring out how to keep society safe and, if possible, rehabilitate the person

it is very interesting to me to try and find some way to rehabilitate children who are on this kind of path, and is currently not seen as possible

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by noyen

so if its triggered its not sociopathic? why cant it develop in the same way any other illness can? what if mental illness and depression is the trigger to sociopathic behaviors? are they then excused from such behaviors because they "cant help
it"? i find this discussion very circular because it seems to be a very singular, abstract and judgemental view. like yeah oj simpson probably was/is but thats just armchair labelling. seriously, who as in historically speaking was a famous textbook sociopath? hitler?

the behaviors involved are so deeply formed in the personality because they are formed in the formative years. if you are passed the point where your main personality is formed, it would be hard or impossible to actually become a sociopath. behaviors are not the only criteria; cognition, empathy or lack thereof, and many other things go into the label of sociopath. you don't just stop having empathy, except perhaps with a traumatic brain injury

these are important questions. i would not excuse such behaviors, because they know the difference between right and wrong and choose to do wrong. but how much of anything do we "control" and "can help"? ultimately i think we have to take responsibility for our actions.

hitler probably was a sociopath, yes, but again it is not really useful in hindsight or with people who cannot be interviewed

[reprise85]

as for brain imaging/fMRI studies:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1122230903.htm

or if you want to actually read a study

Brain Potentials Implicate Temporal Lobe Abnormalities in
Criminal Psychopaths

There are many more.

[noyen]

interesting stuff to think about. interesting terminology. i am thinking that michael alig (the club kid portrayed in party monster movie and doc) would be a good example of a living sociopath. it will be interesting when he gets out of jail. he has the support and empathy of many people as well. for being a lying, manipulative murder who made many public appearances denouncing the hidden life he was living, im really curious if he will use his fame and continue to garner sympathy from his admirers. why do people like sociopaths and allow them to carry out their actions? even when it is known (to whatever extent you an prove someone is) by people outside the bubble of the spell they cast on someone who admires, loves and sympathizes with a sociopath.

innnttteereezzzzteezzinnaannte.

[reprise85]

that's the million dollar question, really. even after my experiences, i know for a fact i could get roped in again by the right person.

i know people like the idea of a creature who looks human but in fact is not really on the inside; who hurts others but somehow sees them as special and would not hurt them...? why did ted bundy get hundreds or thousands of letters or whatever? what draws us to these people?

[noyen]

sociopath seems to be a condition of celebrity and narcisism because these people are multi talented and really capable of anything. like so talented as to fool people into thinking they are the opposite. it really is the ultimate evil and not very fair to any victim of someone who is a sociopath. id imagine it would be hard to come to terms with any manipulation done by one.

maybe why germans can harbor so much guilt and denial at the same time over someone like hitler. mainly the people who were actually under his spell. but even offspring.

[reprise85]

well, i am not sure if my experience with the narcissist/child molester dude was really that of sociopath-victim, but i do think it probably was. either way, i have come to terms with it over time, but have still not completely. it is hard to come to terms with because it is set up as to be your fault, they are just so good at what they do, it's like they have a handbook of manipulation or something

like it was hard for me to come to terms with that, from the first day, from the very very beginning, he knew what he was trying to do to me. it's not as if he actually had good intentions and just "couldnt help himself" eventually or something - no, it was planned. that might seem stupidly obvious to others but i really thought we were in love or whatever

there is just so so much to go into about it, which is why therapy, because it is just so fucked up, and so private and personal as to be its own bizzaro world, and yet done so well, that he got in no trouble. and this started when he was 19 years old, now he is 32, i just cant imagine how much better he is at conning people now

he is very smart but also a slave to his sexual impulses, which i think will make him get caught eventually. but imagine those who are not like that, what they get away with, and how they never get caught, and only those who get the closest to them even know (if they dont have them convinced it's actually the victim's fault) and everyone else would defend the sociopath because they think they are some great person

[noyen]

i wish i could talk openly about my experiences but i cant/wont. but i understand totally where youre coming from. its fucked up. i hope there is justice/closure for you someday.

[reprise85]

thanks man. i hope the same for you

i very much doubt there will be any kind of legal justice or anything like that, but i think seeing him in jail forever would be close enough even if he never gets in trouble for what he did to me. closure i tend to waiver on but i've already had enough where i can appreciate the difference between being purely traumatized and having at least a little integration of the experiences

[Starla]

I'm a little antisocial. I go through these blocks of time where I need to shut the world out. I don't watch news, tv, or read the paper. I shut the phone off too. I just want to read a book, and be home with the kid. I'm not really into going to bars either. I don't care to sit around and drink with others. I prefer my liquor alone at night when everything is quiet and I can contemplate my life and the future. I also like going to movies alone when it's not busy so I can enjoy it in peace. I like cheap beer, cheap wine, and butter flavored pretzels. I hate sudoku, but I like word searches. I like taking long hot baths in the middle of the night in the dark, and I like storms that cause a little destruction but not death. Sometimes I feel like someone is watching me. I like taking coins to the coinstar and cashing it in just to see how much is in my coin basket because it's exciting.

[vixnix]

I wish I liked cheap beer and cheap wine. I like stale chewy baguette. And processed cheese. And anything salt and vinegar flavoured.

[Starla]

The salt and vinegar chips are great. I honestly don't drink enough to care about the brand so much. I probably have a beer or two each week, or a glass of wine every now and then.

[vixnix]

Oh man, I know. Me too. That's why I wish I liked cheap stuff because then I could toss out the rest without feeling like I'd thrown money down the drain, you know? We buy nice stuff and then drink half a glass, it's such a waste so we just never buy it and drink spirits instead.

[noyen]

do u like kink?

[vixnix]

kink like kinky sex stuff? no. Not with any kind of props or costumes or anything.